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  1. #201
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by wilko View Post
    Actually, that was a blown line. My mistake.
    I meant DOUBLE DOUBLE... that's more reasonable against early season competition, I think.
    But still, even the misstatement of exaggeration carries the point for improved post play. They have demonstrate it on the court.

    I think RK can get enough assists to threaten that..
    Mason has show he can be a round machine and is a good passer so its possible for him to scratch a few assists.
    I don't think all three of them can simultaneously average a double double for any reasonable amount of time. That just requires too much scoring and rebounding to go around. Any one of them might be able to average it, and in any particular game two would be able to do it. But all three averaging a double double is unrealistic - even against early season competition. I'd be a bit surprised if we even see any games in which all three get a double double.

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by nocilla View Post
    I think points, rebounds, and blocks would be more likely and may be what wilko was refering to. Although MP2 has been known to pick up a few assist as well.
    As a group, including fouls may well yield a triple-double average.

  3. #203
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Durham
    Regarding Tony, is it correct to say that people still remain cautiously optimistic? Seemed like Watzone was, even after Daniels tweeted that Tony was pushing off his decision. The glass half full view I suppose is that although Tony hasn't committed to Duke, he also hasn't committed to OSU, Memphis, nor UCLA. The nay-sayers who said Tony was only visiting Duke to appease his parents appear to have been mistaken, otherwise one would think he would've committed to somewhere else by now.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by dukedoc View Post
    Regarding Tony, is it correct to say that people still remain cautiously optimistic? Seemed like Watzone was, even after Daniels tweeted that Tony was pushing off his decision. The glass half full view I suppose is that although Tony hasn't committed to Duke, he also hasn't committed to OSU, Memphis, nor UCLA. The nay-sayers who said Tony was only visiting Duke to appease his parents appear to have been mistaken, otherwise one would think he would've committed to somewhere else by now.
    I'm personally cautiously optimistic, but for no real reason other than he still has us in his final four. It seems like Tony has kept things really close to the vest and hasn't really expressed any "leaders" or anything like that that a lot of recruits reveal. He hasn't really even expressed what he's looking for in a program in detail or what he likes about each individual school unless I missed some interviews (which is possible). Most people seemed to think it was OSU/Duke in front with Memphis as a wildcard. Some may think that with the recent PF commit to Memphis that hurts their chances, so OSU/Duke back in front, but sounds like nobody really knows for sure, including Tony.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by dukedoc View Post
    Regarding Tony, is it correct to say that people still remain cautiously optimistic? Seemed like Watzone was, even after Daniels tweeted that Tony was pushing off his decision. The glass half full view I suppose is that although Tony hasn't committed to Duke, he also hasn't committed to OSU, Memphis, nor UCLA. The nay-sayers who said Tony was only visiting Duke to appease his parents appear to have been mistaken, otherwise one would think he would've committed to somewhere else by now.
    I guess I prefer to be cautiously pessimistic. Been down this road too many times before.

  6. #206
    I guess I don't understand if Coach K has put so much time and effort into TP, why he hasn't commited. Rolled out the carpet, met him after the UCLA trip. I mean, its not like Sendek, or Lavin was calling on him. This is Coach K for cryin' out loud.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by wncdevilfan View Post
    I guess I don't understand if Coach K has put so much time and effort into TP, why he hasn't commited. Rolled out the carpet, met him after the UCLA trip. I mean, its not like Sendek, or Lavin was calling on him. This is Coach K for cryin' out loud.
    Because, much as we'd like it to be otherwise, it doesn't quite work that way. Just because Coach K wants a recruit to come to Duke doesn't mean that recruit automatically and immediately commits to the Blue Devils.

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by wncdevilfan View Post
    I guess I don't understand if Coach K has put so much time and effort into TP, why he hasn't commited. Rolled out the carpet, met him after the UCLA trip. I mean, its not like Sendek, or Lavin was calling on him. This is Coach K for cryin' out loud.
    Not everyone loves Duke and Coach K. If it was just a function of Coach K putting in the legwork, we'd never miss on recruits. But it's a two-way street.

    Note: this is not a statement about Parker's actual interest level in Duke. Just a general statement about why any recruit might not choose Duke even after receiving the full court press from Coach K.

  9. #209
    ok fair enough. but you don't have to yell at me like that. lol

  10. #210
    If people are convinced Ohio State is now the slight favorite in Tony Parker sweepstakes and if Ken Pomeroy has the head to head 74-68 in favor of Ohio State, why not just double down? The winner of November 29 game gets Parker as long as it is their bigs who outplay the other team's bigs.

  11. #211
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern VA
    Quote Originally Posted by ACCBBallFan View Post
    If people are convinced Ohio State is now the slight favorite in Tony Parker sweepstakes and if Ken Pomeroy has the head to head 74-68 in favor of Ohio State, why not just double down? The winner of November 29 game gets Parker as long as it is their bigs who outplay the other team's bigs.

    Who's convinced of that??? Most of what I read either states or implies he's a Duke lean.




  12. #212
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    It may just be phrasing, but I agree with gam7 and disagree with the idea of "forcing the issue [in] the post," if it means we "take some early season losses." ...if you believe forcing it into the post would cause some losses, wouldn't it follow that the role is "beyond their capabilities" (at least until forcing it no longer leads to losses)?
    I'm willing to take some early season losses in order to develop our bigs and have them ready for some late-season wins. But I guess there's two separate issues here: a.) how we develop our big men over the course of this season in order to best prepare for the tournament, and b.) how we showcase our big men to potential recruits. I totally agree that a. is much more important than b.), but I also feel that the two are not mutually exclusive.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I'm willing to take some early season losses in order to develop our bigs and have them ready for some late-season wins. But I guess there's two separate issues here: a.) how we develop our big men over the course of this season in order to best prepare for the tournament, and b.) how we showcase our big men to potential recruits. I totally agree that a. is much more important than b.), but I also feel that the two are not mutually exclusive.
    They may not be mutually exclusive, but I'd be shocked if Coach K ever thinks about (b) during game preparation.

  14. #214

    Coach K

    I think Coach K has made a huge mistake by having Wojo as the big man coach. I just don't see why he doesn't get a big man coach who is a) actually big, and b) one who played the position at least on the college level. Why is a former Duke point guard the big man coach? How can that possibly be our best option? I think it is costing us both in our recruiting of quality big men as well as in the development of the bigs that we do get. I cannot remember a time in the last five or six seasons that a big man came to Duke and developed a consistently good inside game while at Duke. McRoberts? Randolph? Zoubek? Thomas? Miles Plumlee? Mason Plumlee? Ryan Kelly? No, no, no and no. Why is he so wedded to this Wojo as big man coach situation? I don't get it.

  15. #215
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I think Coach K has made a huge mistake by having Wojo as the big man coach. I just don't see why he doesn't get a big man coach who is a) actually big, and b) one who played the position at least on the college level. Why is a former Duke point guard the big man coach? How can that possibly be our best option? I think it is costing us both in our recruiting of quality big men as well as in the development of the bigs that we do get. I cannot remember a time in the last five or six seasons that a big man came to Duke and developed a consistently good inside game while at Duke. McRoberts? Randolph? Zoubek? Thomas? Miles Plumlee? Mason Plumlee? Ryan Kelly? No, no, no and no. Why is he so wedded to this Wojo as big man coach situation? I don't get it.
    Whoa. I never considered this before. Tell us more.

  16. #216
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Jacksonville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Whoa. I never considered this before. Tell us more.
    Well aren't there a bevy of 6'11" or 7'20" guys lining up to be big man coaches?

    Size has nothing to do with knowledge of the game or position. It is like saying that a 175lbs man can't coach the offensive line because he doesn't weigh 285lbs. or more. An old argument to blame issues with big men on Wojo. Lets move on from that please.

  17. #217
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I think Coach K has made a huge mistake by having Wojo as the big man coach. I just don't see why he doesn't get a big man coach who is a) actually big, and b) one who played the position at least on the college level. Why is a former Duke point guard the big man coach? How can that possibly be our best option? I think it is costing us both in our recruiting of quality big men as well as in the development of the bigs that we do get. I cannot remember a time in the last five or six seasons that a big man came to Duke and developed a consistently good inside game while at Duke. McRoberts? Randolph? Zoubek? Thomas? Miles Plumlee? Mason Plumlee? Ryan Kelly? No, no, no and no. Why is he so wedded to this Wojo as big man coach situation? I don't get it.
    1F and the correct answers are yes, no, hell yes, yes, yes, work in progress, but definitely not no, yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Whoa. I never considered this before. Tell us more.
    I second this

    Quote Originally Posted by mkline09 View Post
    Well aren't there a bevy of 6'11" or 7'20" guys lining up to be big man coaches?

    Size has nothing to do with knowledge of the game or position. It is like saying that a 175lbs man can't coach the offensive line because he doesn't weigh 285lbs. or more. An old argument to blame issues with big men on Wojo. Lets move on from that please.
    Not only an old argument, but the horse was beaten to death, trampled upon, beaten some more, then stuck in a closet where he could be brought out and beaten again when needed

  18. #218
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Toronto
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I just don't see why he doesn't get a big man coach who is a) actually big, and b) one who played the position at least on the college level.
    The best big man coach of all time was 6 feet 2 inches tall. I admit that he was taller than Wojo, but I doubt that those extra 2 inches made a huge difference.

    If you don't see big men improving under Wojo, then that is a valid criticism, but the fact that he is too short is not. By the way Wojo did make frequent trips to Pete Newell's camps to learn some stuff.

    More than anything, I think that we have not seen Wojo work too many times with beefy young men who look like they could use their butts as weapons in the paint. MP1 is a leaper rather than a butt-camper. MP2 is somewhere between a stretch 4 and a pure 4. Lance Thomas was wiry and liked to play outside in high school. McBob thought he was a point guard. Zoubek showed improvement, did he not? Boozer did pretty well, but he had the beefy body. I am not sure where Hairston falls. I worry that he's a poor man's Lance Thomas, but I am willing to give him the full four years to develop into a rotation player. Shelden did well, and he had a nice beefy body and always played inside. Perhaps Tony Parker could be the next beefy Duke big man... This makes the judgment difficult though. The successful Wojo big men have been beefy, highly rated in high school, and already traditional big men. None of the unsuccessful Wojo big men fit all three criteria.

    I cannot say that Wojo is a good big man coach. I also cannot say that Wojo is a bad big man coach. He might be either. Unless you have some reasonable formal data analysis that attempts to measure big man development, it is hard to say for sure. Any verbal story is just anecdotal and unreliable. That's why I would leave the evaluation to Coach K.

    If someone is willing to do a serious analysis of big man coaches across college basketball, justify the methodology, and show where Wojo ranks, I am sure that every college basketball fan would be interested. However, I doubt that such a thing would happen.

    EDIT: I excluded Shav because he was destroyed by injuries. Horvath and Sanders also fail to meet the three criteria for successful Wojo big men. Nevertheless, they did enough to come up big in various spots. Ryan Kelly is a stretch 4, not an inside big man. Same goes for Shane. Tony Parker, by the way, fits the three criteria of successful Wojo big men.
    Last edited by Poincaré; 11-09-2011 at 09:48 PM.

  19. #219
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Delaware
    Quote Originally Posted by mkline09 View Post
    Well aren't there a bevy of 6'11" or 7'20" guys lining up to be big man coaches?

    Size has nothing to do with knowledge of the game or position. It is like saying that a 175lbs man can't coach the offensive line because he doesn't weigh 285lbs. or more. An old argument to blame issues with big men on Wojo. Lets move on from that please.
    You know, this got me thinking. We should leave Wojo as the big man coach, but try to hire Len Elmore to coach the guards. That way, they'll never get tired legs at the end of the year. It's perfect.

  20. #220
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    ... Not only an old argument, but the horse was beaten to death, trampled upon, beaten some more, then stuck in a closet where he could be brought out and beaten again when needed




    ironic that I am watching a show on science fiction that became fact, beginning with Shelley's Frankenstein and the reanimation of dead nerves ...

    this horse just won't stay dead

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