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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Are the Plumlees being currently being featured in our offense?
    There's another thread on this exact subject, but my answer is yes. The last two games notwithstanding, Mason gets plenty of touches and has a high usage rate. Miles less so, but he still gets more touches when he's in than Andre Dawkins, for example.

  2. #642
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    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Well, it may have seemed like 10 years, but it was really only 5. In 2007, our best player was our center (McRoberts). From 2003-2006, Shelden Williams manned the post. From 2000-2002 we had Carlos Boozer.
    In defense of my original post, I said "in the last 10 years, our NPOY Candidates have been guards." Not "our best players."

    Just off the top of my head, I think our NPOY candidates in the last 10 years have been:

    Jason Williams
    JJ Redick
    Kyle Singler (Perimeter Oriented Years)
    Nolan Smith

    Shelden's best years were still overshadowed by JJ;

    and McBob may have been the best player on the team, but is still used as a major negative recruiting tactic by our competitors. eg, "#1 recruit in country ruined by Coach K's system"

  3. #643
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.

    Well

    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Are the Plumlees being currently being featured in our offense? If you were a recruit, would you be happy getting the number of touches that the Plumlees are currently getting?

    When someone with Elton's talent comes in, Duke will incorporate the inside game into its offense. But when someone with less than Elton's talent comes in, I don't see that happening. So I guess a big question for TP is whether he sees himself as being good enough to demand that kind of a role in the offense. Or maybe he'd rather go to a system that starts on the inside, like Kansas or UNC, where he'll be given room to develop.
    Mason definitely was featured earlier, but he's struggled lately. Neither one of Miles or Mason is particularly comfortable with their back to the basket. I don't think anyone can seriously say we're better off with Mason being featured, at least not the way he's playing offensively right now.

    So if I were a recruit, it would depend on my skills. If I thought I could score in the low post against a tough schedule, you bet I'd view Duke as an opportunity. How nice would it be to get a pass in the paint and see Dawkins, Rivers, Curry, and Kelly camped outside?

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Faison1 View Post

    and McBob may have been the best player on the team, but is still used as a major negative recruiting tactic by our competitors. eg, "#1 recruit in country ruined by Coach K's system"
    Worth mentioning that this season was Duke's worst in most respects for several years, both prior and after

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    No way I pick KU over Georgetown if I'm a back to the basket player (especially with TP's skills)[/B].
    Thomas Robinson did. He grew up in DC.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Faison1 View Post
    In defense of my original post, I said "in the last 10 years, our NPOY Candidates have been guards." Not "our best players."
    Put another way: in the 20 seasons since Laettner graduated (I'm including this year as I assume the numbers won't change this season), we've had a back to the basket player average 14ppg six times. And that's only if you include Roshown McLeod's 15.3. The others (Parks in 1994 and 1995, Brand in 1999, Boozer in 2002, Williams in 2005 and 2006) all more definitively fit that description. Many teams have seasons with multiple 14ppg post scorers. UNC, for example, has had only one season in the past 11 years in which they didn't have a 14ppg post scorer (that glorious 2010 season), and in that year their two top scorers were post guys (each averaging 13ppg). Kentucky has had a post guy average 14ppg in every year since the Tubby Smith era. Kansas had a brief drought in the late 2000s when they were really balanced but more guard-oriented, but has otherwise produced 1 or more big scoring post men.

    It's really hard to argue that we emphasize the post as much as some other teams do. That's not a knock on our style of play, because we've clearly been successful with it. But if you're a back-to-the-basket scorer, it's something that you probably are going to ponder in your choice of schools: do I go to a place that makes it a point to work the ball inside, or do I go to a place that isn't afraid to keep it on the perimeter if they don't have NBA-level elite big man?

  7. #647
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    Feb 2009
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    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    No way I pick KU over Georgetown if I'm a back to the basket player (especially with TP's skills). Besides, DC wins hands down against Kansas for things to offer.
    Georgetown would have to be up there too. In terms of player development though, Manning's record is just incredible. They may not have a flagship NBA star yet (although there may well be one on campus), but basically much every big man he's coached has been a great, not good, college big man and gotten drafted. It's almost like Alabama running backs - they lose Ingram, and without missing a beat, a Heisman-quality player like Richardson steps in. Seems to happen every year at KU with bigs under Manning's watch.

    And it's not just a case of landing DeMarcus Cousins and Anthony Davis-type talents - Markieff Morris, for example, was the #12 PF in the class and a scrawny 6'8 kid who wasn't much of an athlete when he arrived. Robinson was the #9 PF without much muscle or any semblance of a post game.

    Lastly, I imagine Lawrence is the time of your life if you're the BMOC.

    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    From talking to TP - he's a very agreeable young man. Doesn't talk a lot (except on the court) and my impression is that he absorbs what he hears from the colleges he likes - and of course, all of it sounds good.
    Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong at all with having hoop dreams, nor spurning Duke. However, that's not an excuse to be publicly disrespectful of a legendary coach who's spent an inordinate amount of time trying to develop a relationship with you. That's where he crosses the line in my book.

  8. #648
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    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by Faison1 View Post
    In defense of my original post, I said "in the last 10 years, our NPOY Candidates have been guards." Not "our best players."
    Well, I suppose that's true, but does anybody really see Tony Parker as a NPOY candidate?

    Not only that, the NPOY award hardly ever goes to big men. Here are the Naismith award winners since Elton Brand won it:

    Code:
    2000 	Kenyon Martin 	Cincinnati 	Forward 	
    2001 	Shane Battier 	Duke 	 	Forward
    2002 	Jason Williams 	Duke 	 	Guard 
    2003 	T. J. Ford 	Texas 	 	Guard 	
    2004 	Jameer Nelson 	Saint Joseph's 	Guard
    2005 	Andrew Bogut 	Utah 	 	Center 	
    2006 	J. J. Redick 	Duke 	 	Guard
    2007 	Kevin Durant 	Texas 	 	Forward
    2008 	Tyler Hansbrough UNC 	 	Forward
    2009 	Blake Griffin 	Oklahoma 	Forward 	
    2010 	Evan Turner 	Ohio State 	Guard 
    2011 	Jimmer Fredette BYU 	 	Guard
    Just three centers (Bogut, Hansbrough, and Griffin) out of 12. And none of these guys went to Kansas or Kentucky or Ohio State (and Griffin's coach works for us now).

    So I'm not sure how much NPOY candidates add to this debate.

  9. #649
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Well, I suppose that's true, but does anybody really see Tony Parker as a NPOY candidate?

    Not only that, the NPOY award hardly ever goes to big men. Here are the Naismith award winners since Elton Brand won it:

    Code:
    2000 	Kenyon Martin 	Cincinnati 	Forward 	
    2001 	Shane Battier 	Duke 	 	Forward
    2002 	Jason Williams 	Duke 	 	Guard 
    2003 	T. J. Ford 	Texas 	 	Guard 	
    2004 	Jameer Nelson 	Saint Joseph's 	Guard
    2005 	Andrew Bogut 	Utah 	 	Center 	
    2006 	J. J. Redick 	Duke 	 	Guard
    2007 	Kevin Durant 	Texas 	 	Forward
    2008 	Tyler Hansbrough UNC 	 	Forward
    2009 	Blake Griffin 	Oklahoma 	Forward 	
    2010 	Evan Turner 	Ohio State 	Guard 
    2011 	Jimmer Fredette BYU 	 	Guard
    Just three centers (Bogut, Hansbrough, and Griffin) out of 12. And none of these guys went to Kansas or Kentucky or Ohio State (and Griffin's coach works for us now).

    So I'm not sure how much NPOY candidates add to this debate.
    Kedsy, I agree with you that college hoops tends to be a guards game. But in fairness, most of the big guys head for the NBA a year or more before they're ready. The dominant reason is -- "that's what the market says." The secondary one is that they are tired of being beat on at the college level.

    sage

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Just three centers (Bogut, Hansbrough, and Griffin) out of 12. And none of these guys went to Kansas or Kentucky or Ohio State (and Griffin's coach works for us now).

    So I'm not sure how much NPOY candidates add to this debate.
    No, but the fact that we have had only 9-10 instances of a true post scorer averaging even 13ppg in the past 20 years (accomplished by 5-6 different players, some of whom did it multiple times) should be telling. I'd be willing to bet that the number of occurrences for teams like Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, OSU, etc are pushing 20 or more. Kentucky has 8 in the past 7 years. UNC has 9 in the past 6 years. Kansas has 10 in the past 11 years, and just missed with 2 more (12.8 ppg). OSU has 7 in the past 8 years. And that cutoff is probably generous to Duke, as 4 of those occurrences were just at/over the 13ppg hurdle.

    And unfortunately just as relevant than even the 20 year window is the same estimate over the past 5 years (since that's as far back as some of these guys will reasonably care). We've had none in the past 5 years. OSU has had 3-4. Kansas has had 4. UNC has had 7. Kentucky has had 6.

    It's simply not accurate to say we've emphasized post offense to the degree that some of the other elite programs have - either over the years or (especially) recently. We've seemed to try to change things this year to be a more balanced team. But even then, we're still just achieving balance rather than really being post focused.

  11. #651
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    Mar 2008
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    Atlanta, GA/Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong at all with having hoop dreams, nor spurning Duke. However, that's not an excuse to be publicly disrespectful of a legendary coach who's spent an inordinate amount of time trying to develop a relationship with you. That's where he crosses the line in my book.
    First, as far as Thomas Robinson going to Kansas - he didn't really have a choice. Georgetown didn't recruit him and didn't need to. They had Monroe and Sims.

    And please detail to me how Tony Parker has been publicly disrespectful. I missed that somewhere....

  12. #652
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    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    Is this a joke? Please come and visit. I realize Kansas does not have a great reputation nationally, but Lawrence is one of the more beautiful campuses/towns anywhere. It's Austin-like... A lush, scenic oasis in the middle of a bass-ackwards state. Throw in AFH, it's not hard to understand why it's a popular destination for players. There is a reason kids have flocked there from places like LA and NYC, long before Bill Self arrived. The current starting 5 consists of players from Jersey, Vegas, DC, KC, and San Diego. Roy's best teams in the 90s had players like Vaughn-Pierce-Gooden (California).

    Back to the rest of this post: Gauging NBA success is very much a Tarheel thing to do, isn't it? I would rather take a look at the Morris bros and Darnell Jackson, who were rail-thin as freshman, and couldn't dunk without a running start (seriously). They left as physical specimen, the Morris bros were both drafted in the lottery. Jackson never dreamed of seeing time on an NBA court when he arrived in Lawrence.
    First, sorry about the comment about Lawrence. My ignorance - I didn't know it was that kind of "oasis" town. I still have a hard time fathoming how coastal kids or other city kids would choose the environment there, lovely though it may be, over towns or cities that may provide significantly more in terms of entertainment options, community diversity, proximity to bigger cities, high growth/business opportunities, or other attributes that some of the schools that Kansas competes with for national recruits offer, so that's maybe why I think Self (and Williams and Brown before them) have been excellent salesmen for the Kansas program.

    As for the rest of the post, earlier in the thread you stated "I don't understand why coaches wouldn't talk about their past success with players. I mean, in the past 4 years, Bill Self (with a massive assist from big-man coach Danny Manning) has put Darrel Arthur, Brandon Rush, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun*, Cole Aldrich, and the Morris brothers in the NBA as front line players." I took that to mean that you were crediting Self and Manning with developing these players, having started with not a whole lot and turned them into "front line" NBA players, by which I thought you meant as synonymous with "top notch." Maybe you instead meant "front line" in terms of positions on the court -- Kansas's front line -- but then why include Brandon Rush, who is/was a shooting guard?

    Don't get me wrong -- I agree with you and others on this thread that Kansas has more consistently focused its offense on inside play, or at least trying to go inside first, than has Duke in the most recent years. But I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that the Kansas staff started out with lumps of clay and turned them into NBA players. Checking the Scout ratings, unless I'm misreading them, Arthur was rated the #2 recruit in the nation in 2006. In 2003 Kaun was #6 and Jackson was #15. In 2007 Aldrich was #7. The Morris twins were lower in 2008, in particular Markieff. But these guys were all rated as pretty good-to-excellent prospects entering college.

  13. #653
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    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    First, as far as Thomas Robinson going to Kansas - he didn't really have a choice. Georgetown didn't recruit him and didn't need to. They had Monroe and Sims.

    And please detail to me how Tony Parker has been publicly disrespectful. I missed that somewhere....
    What's your point here? Mine was that Robinson was far from a can't-miss prospect when he arrived, and Manning helped turn him into the most dominant player in country not named Anthony Davis and a top-5 pick.

    As for your second question, I posted one of many examples earlier in this thread. That's not only being disrespectful, it's straight-up calling Coach K a liar. (Excerpt: [Interviewer: So you're paying attention to what they do, rather than what they're telling you?] "Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know what schools "do work" and what schools [don't]. You know if a school has 36 years of experience and has like 4 bigs, you know that's not what they do.")

  14. #654
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    Atlanta, GA/Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    Thomas Robinson did. He grew up in DC.
    This was my point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    What's your point here? Mine was that Robinson was far from a can't-miss prospect when he arrived, and Manning helped turn him into the most dominant player in country not named Anthony Davis and a top-5 pick.

    As for your second question, I posted one of many examples earlier in this thread. That's not only being disrespectful, it's straight-up calling Coach K a liar. (Excerpt: [Interviewer: So you're paying attention to what they do, rather than what they're telling you?] "Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know what schools "do work" and what schools [don't]. You know if a school has 36 years of experience and has like 4 bigs, you know that's not what they do.")
    What's disrespectful about the truth? A liar is a bit of a stretch. He's watching games just like us and he's seeing bombs away - just like us. Sure the post is getting the ball but they kick it out but certain Duke centers haven't had to - and I'm sure the staff can show this. He's used to getting the ball and then everyone watching to see what he's gonna do - shot selection and double team be damned. That's what he's calling putting in work. That doesn't happen at Duke - at least not to the naked eye b/c our offense relies heavily on motion.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    What's disrespectful about the truth? A liar is a bit of a stretch. He's watching games just like us and he's seeing bombs away - just like us. Sure the post is getting the ball but they kick it out but certain Duke centers haven't had to - and I'm sure the staff can show this. He's used to getting the ball and then everyone watching to see what he's gonna do - shot selection and double team be damned. That's what he's calling putting in work. That doesn't happen at Duke - at least not to the naked eye b/c our offense relies heavily on motion.
    The truth? 4 bigs to the league in 36 years? That isn't the truth. And saying that K is telling him he would be used one way but he knows that is a lie, that he knows how K would REALLY use him, is absolutely disrespectful. Not sure how on earth you can take that any other way.

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    First, sorry about the comment about Lawrence. My ignorance - I didn't know it was that kind of "oasis" town. I still have a hard time fathoming how coastal kids or other city kids would choose the environment there, lovely though it may be, over towns or cities that may provide significantly more in terms of entertainment options, community diversity, proximity to bigger cities, high growth/business opportunities, or other attributes that some of the schools that Kansas competes with for national recruits offer, so that's maybe why I think Self (and Williams and Brown before them) have been excellent salesmen for the Kansas program.

    As for the rest of the post, earlier in the thread you stated "I don't understand why coaches wouldn't talk about their past success with players. I mean, in the past 4 years, Bill Self (with a massive assist from big-man coach Danny Manning) has put Darrel Arthur, Brandon Rush, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun*, Cole Aldrich, and the Morris brothers in the NBA as front line players." I took that to mean that you were crediting Self and Manning with developing these players, having started with not a whole lot and turned them into "front line" NBA players, by which I thought you meant as synonymous with "top notch." Maybe you instead meant "front line" in terms of positions on the court -- Kansas's front line -- but then why include Brandon Rush, who is/was a shooting guard?

    Don't get me wrong -- I agree with you and others on this thread that Kansas has more consistently focused its offense on inside play, or at least trying to go inside first, than has Duke in the most recent years. But I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that the Kansas staff started out with lumps of clay and turned them into NBA players. Checking the Scout ratings, unless I'm misreading them, Arthur was rated the #2 recruit in the nation in 2006. In 2003 Kaun was #6 and Jackson was #15. In 2007 Aldrich was #7. The Morris twins were lower in 2008, in particular Markieff. But these guys were all rated as pretty good-to-excellent prospects entering college.
    Your rankings are likely positional rankings; there's no way anyone had Sasha Kaun as the #6 overall player or Darnell Jackson at #15. If you look at rsci, which is a decent consensus view, going back to the Darnell Jackson-Sasha Kaun class, you get:

    Kaun - 43
    Jackson - 68
    Arthur - 11
    Aldrich - 21
    McMorris - 63
    MkMorris - 67
    Robinson - 28
    Withey - 27

    Now, the Morris twins had a fairly circuitous route to KU and were fifth-year preppers, which affected their rankings somewhat, but they were also really raw when they arrived. With Robinson and even Withey pending, all were drafted. All but Kaun, who's making jack in his home country of Russia, playing for the top team there, have played in the NBA. That's a pretty good run of getting big guys into the league. Clearly, KU isn't taking trash and turning it into lotto picks, but it's a good resume to show kids that you will progress. You will be showcased. You will get a chance at the next level.

    Anyway, interesting discussion throughout the thread.

  17. #657
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    Atlanta, GA/Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ash View Post
    The truth? 4 bigs to the league in 36 years? That isn't the truth. And saying that K is telling him he would be used one way but he knows that is a lie, that he knows how K would REALLY use him, is absolutely disrespectful. Not sure how on earth you can take that any other way.
    Or he just has an opinion. Which he's allowed to have. From his perspective - that's what he sees - Williams, Boozer, Brand, and McRoberts (that's 4 ironically), anything else and he's basically not born yet. Doesn't make it true but I KNOW what he means. Posts about him being 8 years old at the times of certain bigs DO hold some weight. It's the same thing we complain about on this very board. Some of our own posters have TP's very same mindset - trust me - I've read thousands of big man posts.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    This was my point...



    What's disrespectful about the truth? A liar is a bit of a stretch. He's watching games just like us and he's seeing bombs away - just like us. Sure the post is getting the ball but they kick it out but certain Duke centers haven't had to - and I'm sure the staff can show this. He's used to getting the ball and then everyone watching to see what he's gonna do - shot selection and double team be damned. That's what he's calling putting in work. That doesn't happen at Duke - at least not to the naked eye b/c our offense relies heavily on motion.
    Exactly which schools will allow him to put up shots without regard for shot selection or double teams?

  19. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonandblue View Post
    Exactly which schools will allow him to put up shots without regard for shot selection or double teams?
    Literally hundreds of them!!! He's one of the best centers in the country. At some schools they would let him bring it down and dunk it every possession if that's what he wanted to do...

  20. #660
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Cary, NC
    As great as Brand was coming in, he was THIRD on the team in scoring as a freshman. As a sophomore he did lead the team but just barely, scoring 17.7 to Trajan's 17.3 (I do recognize that he dealt with a major injury that season). Boozer never led his team in scoring, nor did Shelden.

    An argument could be made that those players all had great players around them, but Parker would have experienced, potential future NBA-level guards around him too. He'd have Curry and Dawkins sniping from the outside, Cook and Thornton controlling the ball, and Suliamon working his way into the rotation. On top of that, Austin and Mason might return. So it is highly unlikely IMO that he would be the focal point of the offense.

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