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  1. #601
    1. The 'Thomas Robinson' stuff is a little weird, it's not like he walked on campus as a lottery pick. He averaged 2 points and 7 minutes a game as a freshman, 7 points and 14 minutes as a sophomore, until he blossomed this year (not coincidental that the Morris Bros and Cole Aldrich are now in the NBA). He always had a NBA-ready body, but as a KU fan, watching him catch the ball his first 1.5 years was both exciting and scary-as-hell. You either got a crazy powerful dunk or a pass off a cheerleader's face. His growth as a player has been astronomical. He deserves credit for maturing and being coachable.
    2. I don't understand why coaches wouldn't talk about their past success with players. I mean, in the past 4 years, Bill Self (with a massive assist from big-man coach Danny Manning) has put Darrel Arthur, Brandon Rush, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun*, Cole Aldrich, and the Morris brothers in the NBA as front line players. Oh yea, they won a national championship too. Thomas Robinson and Jeff Withey will surely join them in the next two years. Does Bill Self actively say that? I don't know, I kinda doubt it, but I'm sure recruits hear it somewhere. I wouldn't begrudge Duke coaches for talking up Kyrie Irving, for example.
    * Kaun was drafted by the Cavs, but decided to play in Russia.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Also, why is everyone ripping on Parker? There's still a chance (albeit a small one) that he ends up at Duke. And even if he doesn't, why are we turning on him and trying to find ways to make him out to be a bad guy?
    Some great quotes in here if you're a subscriber: http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/1162597.html There have been a ton of other not-so subtle jabs, like this:
    "A school isn't gonna change what they do. A coach isn't gonna change what they do. [Interviewer: So you're paying attention to what they do, rather than what they're telling you?] "Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know what schools "do work" and what schools [don't]. You know if a school has 36 years of experience and has like 4 bigs, you know that's not what they do, and they're trying to change it or something... [shakes head]"
    Hmmm, which coach who's recruiting him happens to have exactly 36 years of experience?

    I don't blame recruits for going elsewhere, but the kid's been consistently disrespectful of K and the program in his comments. I don't think anyone close to the program feels great about their relationship right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    I mean, in the past 4 years, Bill Self (with a massive assist from big-man coach Danny Manning) has put Darrel Arthur, Brandon Rush, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun*, Cole Aldrich, and the Morris brothers in the NBA as front line players...Thomas Robinson and Jeff Withey will surely join them in the next two years.[/I]
    Emphasis on the bolded here. I've said it before, if I was a 6'10 top 25 recruit, I'm 100% going to KU. Manning's record since he arrived is INCREDIBLE, especially considering who the players were when they arrived, and I think he might rival Pete Newell when it's all said and done. I'm extremely jealous.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    Some great quotes in here if you're a subscriber: http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/1162597.html There have been a ton of other not-so subtle jabs, like this:

    Hmmm, which coach who's recruiting him happens to have exactly 36 years of experience?

    I don't blame recruits for going elsewhere, but the kid's been consistently disrespectful of K and the program in his comments. I don't think anyone close to the program feels great about their relationship right now.



    Emphasis on the bolded here. I've said it before, if I was a 6'10 top 25 recruit, I'm 100% going to KU. Manning's record since he arrived is INCREDIBLE, especially considering who the players were when they arrived, and I think he might rival Pete Newell when it's all said and done. I'm extremely jealous.
    Coach K may have coached for 36 years; but he has produced more than 4 bigs to the NBA. If Parker is falliong for that crap, then I'm fine with him going somewhere else. Anyone can look back and see that Coach K has developed players like Alaa Abdelnabby (sorry if I butchered the spelling of hs name), Danny Fery, Christian, Elton, Carlos; Sheldon, and I believe Mason will be in the NBA as well. That's ont too bad of a track record for a coach who had to take 3 years to build up his program first before soaring. No offense to Coach Self; but he didn't have build up Kansas; and outside of the Moris twins (which by the way only Markief is getting some run with the Suns) and mostly likely Robinson, has Self produced a ton of NBA bigs? Manning is a great asset no doubt; but Kansas under Self has not produced any great bigs that i can recall.

  4. #604
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    Some great quotes in here if you're a subscriber: http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/1162597.html There have been a ton of other not-so subtle jabs, like this:

    Hmmm, which coach who's recruiting him happens to have exactly 36 years of experience?

    I don't blame recruits for going elsewhere, but the kid's been consistently disrespectful of K and the program in his comments. I don't think anyone close to the program feels great about their relationship right now.



    Emphasis on the bolded here. I've said it before, if I was a 6'10 top 25 recruit, I'm 100% going to KU. Manning's record since he arrived is INCREDIBLE, especially considering who the players were when they arrived, and I think he might rival Pete Newell when it's all said and done. I'm extremely jealous.
    Oh come on now. Your sarcasm is SO unwarranted.

    Darrell Arthur has averaged 7 points per game in his two years in the league, prior to missing this whole season with an injury. That stat alone shows you what an awesome job KU does in developing its bigs. But then what about:

    Darnell Jackson: he averaged 3 points in 138 games over 3 years before heading for the Ukraine, where he's playing now. Who wouldn't want to be developed to have the same type of pro success as Darnell?

    Sasha Kaun: he wisely spurned Duke in order to enroll at KU, which has resulted not in an NBA career, but one in Russia.

    Cole Aldrich: 31 games over 2 years as a sub for Oklahoma City, playing mainly when other guys get hurt. Career average of 2.5 ppg. Now that's an impact player.

    Markieff Morris is averaging 20 minutes a night off of Phoenix's bench. Nice rookie year so far.

    Marcus Morris: he's back from the D-league, and riding serious pine for Houston.

    Seriously, this is the kind of big man development that Kansas is selling? There's one guy having any impact at all. This record is what would persuade a high school big man that Kansas is the place for him? Considering he also has to convince them to move to Lawrence, Kansas, that Bill Self must be some salesman.

  5. #605
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    Also sent McRoberts, Shav and Lance to the NBA since Shelden graduated. He's obviously wrong, but he was also obviously talking about our coach there.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I really disagree with this statement. There are plenty of examples of highly rated, highly talented players who end up as busts. Maybe they were never that good to begin with, but on the other hand maybe they didn't get the right coaching, or the right support system, or the right motivation, or weren't used in the right way. Yes, their physical gifts are genetic and not under anyone's control, but to suggest that they just roll out of bed and become superstars is completely wrong IMO. These guys make it look easy when you see them on the court but there is a whole lot of hard work that goes into getting to that point.

    Also, why is everyone ripping on Parker? There's still a chance (albeit a small one) that he ends up at Duke. And even if he doesn't, why are we turning on him and trying to find ways to make him out to be a bad guy?
    Just to clear the air, I wasn't ripping on Parker with my statement. I'm just saying that Parker and Robinson are dissimilar as players. Tony is not a face-up big, nor does he have anywhere near the handle of he or the Morris twins. I wasn't saying Parker can't become as productive, just that it's a poor comparison.

  7. #607
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    Walnut Creek, California
    Did somebody forget about the Chief? Cherokee Parks, 6-11. 240. Graduated in 1995. Played 8 years in the NBA for various teams after being drafted in the 1st round (12th overall pick) that year. Not an especially outstanding career, but that can be said about any number of big men. The main point is the 8-years (OK, 7+) in the League. He had his moments and a few years of being solid.

    Well known for frightening small children with his tattoos. (OK, I made up the children part.)

  8. #608
    Don't know what else the Coaching Staff could have done to recruit TP. Best of luck to him.

    Anyway, my guess is that the Staff has moved on. I think Jefferson will be a better fit in the end anyway. He's a much more versatile player. Sometimes things work out for a reason.

  9. #609
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    If coach feels good enough to recruit him, I am confident that he would be an asset to the team.

    If he chooses to go somewhere else, so be it. We get more than our share.

    Either way, good luck to the kid in making the best choice for him. Hope it's here, but no sour grapes if it's not.
    Twerp-free since July 1, 2014.

  10. #610
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    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by nolan8or View Post
    Didn't mean that Duke should move on because of what his dad said about Kansas. I just think it's ridiculous how wishy-washy he's been throughout the process. If we're tired of waiting for an answer can you imagine how the coaching staff must feel after putting so much time into his recruitment? I just think it's time to move on. If he loved Duke and wanted to come here then he would have announced in December after his official visit.
    I agree with the bolded part of this. I read (perhaps misread) your earlier post as suggesting something more judgmental and negative, but as a practical matter, you are right that Parker's handling of the process doesn't suggest he's coming to Duke and may suggest he wouldn't be a good fit at Duke in any case--Duke works best for people who really, really want to be at Duke. I hope he really does understand how much work lies ahead of him to reach the next level and I hope it works out for him wherever he goes.

  11. #611
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    It's hard to argue with the contracts Elton and Carlos have signed. Even guys that were not All-Star caliber like Shelden, Shav and Josh will put millions in the bank. I'd ask Tony if he looks good in green and let him make the case that he doesnt.

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    It's hard to argue with the contracts Elton and Carlos have signed. Even guys that were not All-Star caliber like Shelden, Shav and Josh will put millions in the bank. I'd ask Tony if he looks good in green and let him make the case that he doesnt.
    That's nice and all, but the fact is Kansas' NPOY candidate is a forward. Ours will be, and always tends to be, a guard. At least in the last 10 years.

    Yes, Laettner, Ferry, and Brand were all amazing, but with the exception of Brand, they were face-up, outside-in Forwards. From what little I know of Tony, he's more of a low-block scorer.

    It's gonna be tough to convince one of those guys to come to Duke when you've got programs like Kansas, UNC, etc. telling them how many 3's we tend to launch.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faison1 View Post
    That's nice and all, but the fact is Kansas' NPOY candidate is a forward. Ours will be, and always tends to be, a guard. At least in the last 10 years.

    Yes, Laettner, Ferry, and Brand were all amazing, but with the exception of Brand, they were face-up, outside-in Forwards. From what little I know of Tony, he's more of a low-block scorer.

    It's gonna be tough to convince one of those guys to come to Duke when you've got programs like Kansas, UNC, etc. telling them how many 3's we tend to launch.
    Isnt Elton Brand our best comparison? I have not seen Tony play but that's my assumption. Of course Brand played in the 1990s. But he was still an Olympian, an All-Star, signed two fat contracts and will be better than any big Kansas has put into the league in the Self era.

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    Emphasis on the bolded here. I've said it before, if I was a 6'10 top 25 recruit, I'm 100% going to KU. Manning's record since he arrived is INCREDIBLE, especially considering who the players were when they arrived, and I think he might rival Pete Newell when it's all said and done. I'm extremely jealous.
    No way I pick KU over Georgetown if I'm a back to the basket player (especially with TP's skills). Besides, DC wins hands down against Kansas for things to offer.

    To call Tony wishy-washy is a bit judgmental b/c once again you're asking a teenager to make a business/college/future decision based on more than mere academics. Even as a grown man, I know I really like the Ferrari but that new Lambo has got me really thinking hard about which to get first. But I can't lose - feel me?

    As a personal testament, with full scholarships in hand from Duke, NC State, UNC, and pretty much every other school in N.C., I chose to attend N.C. A&T. Why? The women man! The women... (additionally Duke's eng school was nothing to brag about at the time while NC State and A&T were doing NASA stuff, and NC State has probably the most boring student life I've ever experienced. Plus I just HAD to get out of Durham, the pond had become too small for me).

    I dismissed Tuskegee when they told me the closest mall was an hour and a half away and there was no co-ed visitation. Morehouse didn't have engineering - or females. No way my mom was letting me move to ATL anyway so Georgia Tech was also out of the picture. It was cold at MIT. Cal-Poly was too far. So on and so forth. So what's TP's deal breaker? None of us know that. And perhaps, of the last 6 schools, no one has found it either.

    And as far as Tony's father goes, we all should be able to recall how a school's former player can turn the tide for a student AND his parents. This is normally not a solo decision - remember when the kid chose Alabama right in front of his LSU momma? Yeah - they are probably still talking about that decision TODAY. Obviously, Coach K is pretty good with dads or maybe you haven't seen any of our games lately. I'm not so sure Larry Brown seals the deal.

    From talking to TP - he's a very agreeable young man. Doesn't talk a lot (except on the court) and my impression is that he absorbs what he hears from the colleges he likes - and of course, all of it sounds good.

    Me? I was looking for the party. But Tony is looking for hoop dreams. Undergrad is a lot like marrying a woman though - you only get to do them one at a time. Choose wisely.
    Last edited by SupaDave; 02-28-2012 at 09:38 AM.

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    Isnt Elton Brand our best comparison? I have not seen Tony play but that's my assumption. Of course Brand played in the 1990s. But he was still an Olympian, an All-Star, signed two fat contracts and will be better than any big Kansas has put into the league in the Self era.
    He's probably the closest in terms of playing style, but Brand was rated much higher and was an immediate impact guy. From what I've read, most people expect that TP would fill a role that we definitely have a need for (low-post banger) but probably not be a starter his first year.

    Wow, I'm just now realizing that SuperDave and SupaDave are two different people. Sorry guys!

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    Isnt Elton Brand our best comparison? I have not seen Tony play but that's my assumption. Of course Brand played in the 1990s. But he was still an Olympian, an All-Star, signed two fat contracts and will be better than any big Kansas has put into the league in the Self era.
    Brand is our best comparison (though it sounds like Parker isn't nearly the athlete Brand was). Unfortunately for us that comparison involves a player who left Duke when Parker was about 5 and whose last really good years were when Parker was like 12 or 13. In recruiting terms, that's a lifetime ago. Boozer is a more recent example, but the visual connection to Duke ended when Parker was about 8. Shelden Williams was the last Duke player that Parker might be able to relate to. But he graduated when Parker was only 12. So for virtually the entirety of the time that Parker would have been realistically paying attention to how Duke handles their bigs, they haven't had a low-post option that they go to consistently until this year.

    Kansas and other programs might not be producing a bunch of NBA studs in the post, but they have a bunch of very recent examples in which their bigs were the primary stars on the team. Over the past 4-5 years (the time when he would really paying attention to players are similar to him) Parker has seen players have big-time stats for those schools. That hasn't been the case at Duke for the most part. That appears to matter to some recruits.

    For reference, over the past 5 years, our scoring leaders have been as follows:
    2012: Top 4 scorers are perimeter-oriented* players (top post scorer averages 10.7 ppg)
    2011: Top 5 scorers were perimeter players (top post scorer averaged 7.2 ppg)
    2010: Top 3 scorers were perimeter players (top post scorer averaged 5.6 ppg)
    2009: Top 4 scorers were perimeter-oriented* players (top post scorer averaged 5.3 ppg)
    2008: Top 7 scorers were perimeter-oriented* players (top post scorer averaged 4.3 ppg)

    Note: for the purposes of this analysis I listed Kelly and Singler (years 1 and 2) as perimeter-oriented scorers. They play/played post positions defensively, but they did the majority of their scoring work from the outside in. As such, I suspect guys like Parker don't view them as post scorers.

    To teenagers on the recruiting trail, I don't think the reputation that "Duke just shoots a bunch of 3s" is really a myth. Until this year, we've been very much a perimeter-oriented offensive attack for the entirety of these kid's formative years. And even this year, where we've made a more serious effort to play through the post, the offense is still, at best, balanced (which is the level of depth at which these guys are probably looking).
    Last edited by CDu; 02-28-2012 at 09:49 AM.

  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Wow, I'm just now realizing that SuperDave and SupaDave are two different people. Sorry guys!
    Yep! But I actually agree with a lot of what he writes. He keeps me from having to post sometimes.

    Supa "just remember that I'm capitalized" Dave

  18. #618
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    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    He's probably the closest in terms of playing style, but Brand was rated much higher and was an immediate impact guy. From what I've read, most people expect that TP would fill a role that we definitely have a need for (low-post banger) but probably not be a starter his first year.

    Wow, I'm just now realizing that SuperDave and SupaDave are two different people. Sorry guys!
    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    Yep! But I actually agree with a lot of what he writes. He keeps me from having to post sometimes.

    Supa "just remember that I'm capitalized" Dave
    What Supa does not realize is he could have the moniker if he wrote a big enough check.

  19. #619
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    Wilmington, NC
    I would have to say I was never impressed with Parker....moving on.
    I am the yellow king

  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    No way I pick KU over Georgetown if I'm a back to the basket player (especially with TP's skills). Besides, DC wins hands down against Kansas for things to offer.

    To call Tony wishy-washy is a bit judgmental b/c once again you're asking a teenager to make a business/college/future decision based on more than mere academics. Even as a grown man, I know I really like the Ferrari but that new Lambo has got me really thinking hard about which to get first. But I can't lose - feel me?

    As a personal testament, with full scholarships in hand from Duke, NC State, UNC, and pretty much every other school in N.C., I chose to attend N.C. A&T. Why? The women man! The women... (additionally Duke's eng school was nothing to brag about at the time while NC State and A&T were doing NASA stuff, and NC State has probably the most boring student life I've ever experienced. Plus I just HAD to get out of Durham, the pond had become too small for me).

    I dismissed Tuskegee when they told me the closest mall was an hour and a half away and there was no co-ed visitation. Morehouse didn't have engineering - or females. No way my mom was letting me move to ATL anyway so Georgia Tech was also out of the picture. It was cold at MIT. Cal-Poly was too far. So on and so forth. So what's TP's deal breaker? None of us know that. And perhaps, of the last 6 schools, no one has found it either.

    And as far as Tony's father goes, we all should be able to recall how a school's former player can turn the tide for a student AND his parents. This is normally not a solo decision - remember when the kid chose Alabama right in front of his LSU momma? Yeah - they are probably still talking about that decision TODAY. Obviously, Coach K is pretty good with dads or maybe you haven't seen any of our games lately. I'm not so sure Larry Brown seals the deal.

    From talking to TP - he's a very agreeable young man. Doesn't talk a lot (except on the court) and my impression is that he absorbs what he hears from the colleges he likes - and of course, all of it sounds good.

    Me? I was looking for the party. But Tony is looking for hoop dreams. Undergrad is a lot like marrying a woman though - you only get to do them one at a time. Choose wisely.
    Your post makes a really good point that I think we tend to forget. Yes, Tony Parker is looking for hoop dreams. And since for most of us, our knowledge of him consists entirely of what is said by and about him on basketball recruiting websites, our thinking about his decision process is focused solely on basketball as well. But there are many more factors that might influence this decision, some of them pretty random. When I took my daughter to visit colleges, she knocked one off the list because she thought the tour guide's jokes weren't funny. She chose her "safety" school sight unseen because it was in California and thus might seem "cool" to go to if she were rejected by all the east coast schools on the rest of her list.

    Granted, these reasons might be especially flaky, though it all worked out okay (I'm proud to say she is a Duke grad!). But kids may be looking for a lot of things beyond basketball, and even with basketball, I'm sure some of it comes down to intangibles--a feeling about the coaches, or the teammates, or the place that can't really be articulated or defined.

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