Irving v. Scheyer

[1991 duke law]

We have heard a lot of rave reviews about Kyrie Irving and many people seem to think that Duke will be much better this year than last year (while we won it all last year, the team was not overwhelmingly dominant). I assume that much of that prognosis is based on Irving arriving and Curry being available to play, because otherwise the make up of the team has not changed much (not in a positive way at least - we have lost two other starters in Zoubek and Thomas).

While I have no reason to believe Irving will not be great, I think that it is easy to overlook what Scheyer delivered last year and what Irving has to replace:

1. Solid leadership at the point with few turnovers and good decision making.

2. Steady scorer that could be relied on to give you 17 a night.

3. Was able to hit the big threes when the pressure was on.

4. Team guy that wanted to win, win, win.

Scheyer was great last year. Irving brings a different dimension to the point in that he allows the offensive pace to change. Is it reasonable to think that Irving as a freshman will make Duke better than Scheyer made Duke last year?

[4decadedukie]

Is it reasonable to think that Irving as a freshman will make Duke better than Scheyer made Duke last year?

It is difficult to say, however, I certainly agree that Jon brought tremendously valuable "intangibles" to Duke (as well as excellent on-court play). With Kyle and Nolan as Senior-Captains, perhaps these CRITICAL attributes will be fully addressed. If they are not, I believe it would be a stretch for ANY freshman to provide the "intangibles" and the leadership that Jon did last year.

[Reddevil]

Scheyer was great last year. Irving brings a different dimension to the point in that he allows the offensive pace to change. Is it reasonable to think that Irving as a freshman will make Duke better than Scheyer made Duke last year?

There is no such thing as better than National Champions. Sheyer was the perfect general for the half court scheme used last year. Irving is a true point guard. He makes a fast pace the way to go again for this year's team. Hopefully, the rest of the team and coaches will have him prepared for the BIG stage. Some freshman aint what they used to be. Irving looks to be an exception. I really think this team goes as far as the Plumlees will take 'em though.

[Bob Green]

This year's team will be completely different from last year's team. Coach Krzyzewski has stated we will completely change the way we play because of the arrival of Kyrie Irivng. However, I cannot see any way to compare a four year veteran who scored over 2000 points and led his team to the National Championship to a freshman who has yet to play a single college game. It is not fair to Irving. We all need to allow Irving the opportunity to adjust to the college game. IMO, the adjustment period will be short; however, just to provide some perspective, Irving is frequently compared to Jason Williams, and Williams started his career at Duke with two losses. Duke lost to Stanford and UConn at Madison Square Garden on November 11 and 12, 1999 in the first two games Williams was a Blue Devil.

In terms of the team in general, last season we had great leadership from three seniors (Scheyer/Thomas/Zoubek) and our starting line-up down the stretch consisted of the three seniors plus two juniors (Singler/Smith). The 2010-11 team will be significantly less experienced and in order to reach their potential Singler, Smith, and junior Miles Plumlee will have to step up and provide strong leadership to the younger members of the team.

[Lord Ash]

I personally do not think that Kyrie will give us the same things Jon did.

However, I think when people talk about this years team being better they do so for a few reasons...

First, the addition of Seth Curry is a big piece of this. I know that I personally think of Jon leaving and being "replaced" by both Kyrie AND Seth, which is some serious talent.

Also, I think people expect that Kyrie's abilities will mesh very nicely with the Plumlees. They seem perfect for his uptempo, break down primary defenders and force secondary defenders to rotate over to you style. I expect a lot of Plumdunks this year!

Then of course you add in a year of growth to Mason, Miles, Ryan, and Dre, and then on top of that Nolan and Kyle.

Replacing Jon is impossible. His basketball IQ and ability to be in the right place at the right time is unmatched this side of Shane, and he was a big time scorer and playmaker. But given everything else, I think we CAN reasonably expect this years team to be very, very, very good.

[Mike Corey]

To complement that which is written above, Kyrie's task isn't to duplicate the skills and abilities Jon brought to the table last year, but instead, to do that which is asked of him for this year's team, and to do it to the best of his ability.

Few are as poised to do that as Kyrie Irving is, based on what we've gleaned from comments from the team and from Coach K himself.

This team will have more pure talent than last year's squad. Cultivating the intangibles that helped Duke become national champions last season will be the order of the day, and as with every K-coached team, the point guard's role will be paramount. Again, from what we know of Kyrie thus far, he possesses the interpersonal skills and character to supplement his immense physical talent to allow him to thrive in K's system.

There will be a number of highlight reel moments; a number of facepalm moments; and a number of times when it will be important to just be grateful to be a fan of this team in this time. Just enjoy the ride, and the opportunity to see an athlete of Kyrie's caliber under the tutelage of Coach K, his staff, and the rest of his team.

[Bob Green]

First, the addition of Seth Curry is a big piece of this. I know that I personally think of Jon leaving and being "replaced" by both Kyrie AND Seth, which is some serious talent.

This is a great point. Based upon his performance last summer on the USA U19 team, where he shot .396 from behind the 3 point line against serious competition, I am optimistic Curry will be a player who develops into a clutch 3 point shooter on this year's squad. Of course, we shouldn't forget about Andre Dawkins who knocked downed the two huge 3-pointers in the first half against Baylor.

Your point is solid - Irving doesn't have to replace Scheyer by himself. It's a team effort and we have a lot of back court depth this year.

[Saratoga2]

While I realize most of this thread concerns comparing the loss of Scheyer to the addition or Irving and Curry,I do think the loss of both Zoubek and Thomas will be felt as well. More than senior leadership, Zoubek had the size to intimidate inside. His rebounding in the second half of the year was important to the teams success and his ability to screen helped our shooters to get open looks. Thomas also brought a lot on the defensive side, His combination of size, mobility and motor made him a valuable defender for quick wings and small forwards. Josh is the only new player with close to similar size and mobility so it remains to be seen how much we will miss Thomas.

I too am hoping for a very good season and think coach K will adjust to the talents of his team as he always does. Improvements in the Plumlees, Dawkins and Kelly will be significant and both Curry and Irving seem to be high quality players.

[Kedsy]

This year's team will be completely different from last year's team.

To me, this is the key point. The only time talking about one player "replacing" another makes sense is if a team is trying to play the exact same style as it did the previous year. This year's team will be one of the top offensive teams in the country, with a marvelous blend of one-on-one penetration skills at three positions, good size and hops up front, and possibly the best outside shooting in the nation. It's not a matter of replacing Jon (or Brian or Lance), it's an assessment of the current personnel.

Our defense will also be different, more vintage Duke -- high pressure, push the opponent's perimeter outside their comfort zone, execute steals in the passing lanes -- kind of D, which will generate its advantage through turnovers rather than offensive boards. We couldn't do that last year with the personnel we had. The improvement of the Plumlees and Ryan Kelly will be key here in protecting the rim when a risk on the perimeter fails to pay off.

Finally, one "intangible" that bringing in Kyrie and Seth and losing Jon and Brian will give us is perception. Last year the perception (unfair as it was) was that Duke was "alarmingly unathletic" and very beatable. This year, I believe opponents will be intimidated by our skill, athleticism and depth. It will be harder for them to believe they can beat us at any facet of the game. They will become demoralized and some teams will give up even if the game is technically within reach. I don't think we should underestimate what that gives us.

[Kedsy]

While I realize most of this thread concerns comparing the loss of Scheyer to the addition or Irving and Curry,I do think the loss of both Zoubek and Thomas will be felt as well.

I sort of said this in my previous post, but personally I don't think we should look at it in terms of "losses," but rather in "changes." And in that light, everything's good.

[CDu]

We have heard a lot of rave reviews about Kyrie Irving and many people seem to think that Duke will be much better this year than last year (while we won it all last year, the team was not overwhelmingly dominant). I assume that much of that prognosis is based on Irving arriving and Curry being available to play, because otherwise the make up of the team has not changed much (not in a positive way at least - we have lost two other starters in Zoubek and Thomas).

While I have no reason to believe Irving will not be great, I think that it is easy to overlook what Scheyer delivered last year and what Irving has to replace:

1. Solid leadership at the point with few turnovers and good decision making.

2. Steady scorer that could be relied on to give you 17 a night.

3. Was able to hit the big threes when the pressure was on.

4. Team guy that wanted to win, win, win.

Scheyer was great last year. Irving brings a different dimension to the point in that he allows the offensive pace to change. Is it reasonable to think that Irving as a freshman will make Duke better than Scheyer made Duke last year?

Irving isn't going to have to replace Scheyer to make Duke as good or better than last year. He's just going to be a part of the team. We hopefully will also have the following, to replace Scheyer, Zoubek, and Thomas:

- improved versions of seniors Singler and Smith to help with leadership
- improved versions of the Plumlees and Kelly to provide interior play and some offense
- improved version of Dawkins and the addition of Curry to provide additional scoring on the perimeter
- addition of Curry and Thornton and improved version of Smith to aid with ballhandling
- depth and athleticism to allow a more up-tempo style to get easy buckets

Now, it could be that Irving could give us 17+ ppg and provide other aspects. But we aren't going to be asking him to do that. Nor do we necessarily NEED him to do that.

[Mike Corey]

To me, this is the key point. The only time talking about one player "replacing" another makes sense is if a team is trying to play the exact same style as it did the previous year. This year's team will be one of the top offensive teams in the country, with a marvelous blend of one-on-one penetration skills at three positions, good size and hops up front, and possibly the best outside shooting in the nation. It's not a matter of replacing Jon (or Brian or Lance), it's an assessment of the current personnel.

Our defense will also be different, more vintage Duke -- high pressure, push the opponent's perimeter outside their comfort zone, execute steals in the passing lanes -- kind of D, which will generate its advantage through turnovers rather than offensive boards. We couldn't do that last year with the personnel we had. The improvement of the Plumlees and Ryan Kelly will be key here in protecting the rim when a risk on the perimeter fails to pay off.

Finally, one "intangible" that bringing in Kyrie and Seth and losing Jon and Brian will give us is perception. Last year the perception (unfair as it was) was that Duke was "alarmingly unathletic" and very beatable. This year, I believe opponents will be intimidated by our skill, athleticism and depth. It will be harder for them to believe they can beat us at any facet of the game. They will become demoralized and some teams will give up even if the game is technically within reach. I don't think we should underestimate what that gives us.

I think these are all important points, notably your mention of the improvement of Ryan Kelly, which I don't think can be stated enough. No one worked harder in the offseason than he did to make himself a solid contributor this year; he's going to be a very important part of that which Duke puts together in '10-'11.

The only point with which I'd quibble is that of the intangible of intimidation toward the end of the game. I think your point has merit at the outset to a certain degree, but once teams remember that Duke is very much human and is prone to errors as much as anyone else, the regular amount of competitive spirit ought to be expected. Or rather, when the end of the game approaches, I don't think teams will fold because we're alarmingly athletic; I think they'll just try and fail to keep up with the team K will have representing us on the court.

[sandinmyshoes]

It will come down to how physical talent weighs against experience. Kyrie is more physically skilled, but will that be countered by his decision making being not as good as Jon's? Helping Kyrie out in this will be that he will have a somewhat more exprienced team around him than had Jon.

[Bob Green]

It will come down to how physical talent weighs against experience. Kyrie is more physically skilled, but will that be countered by his decision making being not as good as Jon's? Helping Kyrie out in this will be that he will have a somewhat more exprienced team around him than had Jon.

I disagree that Kyrie will have a more experienced team around him. Last year's stretch run starting line-up was comprised of three seniors and two juniors. This season we will be starting a minimum of two underclassmen as there are only three upperclassmen on the roster. I believe one fact many Duke fans are overlooking is the 2010-11 Blue Devils will be somewhat inexperienced.

As far as physical talent goes, Jon Scheyer has an abundance of physical talent as does Kyrie Irving. I believe a more accurate assessment would be that Kyrie brings a different physical skill set onto the court. Specifically, much more speed.

[uh_no]

Its complete folly to even attempt to compare them....just so unrealistic...

jon allowed duke to methodically destroy teams
kyrie will allow us to run them to death...

either way we rock other teams....jon couldn't do what kyrie will, and kyrie can't do what jon did

[Kedsy]

I think these are all important points, notably your mention of the improvement of Ryan Kelly, which I don't think can be stated enough. No one worked harder in the offseason than he did to make himself a solid contributor this year; he's going to be a very important part of that which Duke puts together in '10-'11.

The only point with which I'd quibble is that of the intangible of intimidation toward the end of the game. I think your point has merit at the outset to a certain degree, but once teams remember that Duke is very much human and is prone to errors as much as anyone else, the regular amount of competitive spirit ought to be expected. Or rather, when the end of the game approaches, I don't think teams will fold because we're alarmingly athletic; I think they'll just try and fail to keep up with the team K will have representing us on the court.

I didn't mean at the end of the game. I was thinking more of the end of the first half or the middle of the 2nd half, when Duke scores 8 in a row to turn a 2 point game into a 10 point game. I can see opposing teams getting demoralized and sagging -- thinking, damn we had them, but now it's over. The "Duke mystique" has helped win games for us in the past.

[sandinmyshoes]

I disagree that Kyrie will have a more experienced team around him. Last year's stretch run starting line-up was comprised of three seniors and two juniors. This season we will be starting a minimum of two underclassmen as there are only three upperclassmen on the roster. I believe one fact many Duke fans are overlooking is the 2010-11 Blue Devils will be somewhat inexperienced.

As far as physical talent goes, Jon Scheyer has an abundance of physical talent as does Kyrie Irving. I believe a more accurate assessment would be that Kyrie brings a different physical skill set onto the court. Specifically, much more speed.

All good points. I would fudge a little bit that this year we will have more players on the court and bench who have been to the Final Four and won a Championship.

[1991 duke law]

Its complete folly to even attempt to compare them....just so unrealistic...

jon allowed duke to methodically destroy teams
kyrie will allow us to run them to death...

either way we rock other teams....jon couldn't do what kyrie will, and kyrie can't do what jon did

------------

Folly - unrealistic? The question is how Duke will perform with Kyrie now that Jon is gone. The question was not an analysis as to which player is better.

Many posters have provided excellent responses to the question and raised interesting perspectives.

[El_Diablo]

I disagree that Kyrie will have a more experienced team around him. Last year's stretch run starting line-up was comprised of three seniors and two juniors. This season we will be starting a minimum of two underclassmen as there are only three upperclassmen on the roster. I believe one fact many Duke fans are overlooking is the 2010-11 Blue Devils will be somewhat inexperienced.

Regarding experience, it's not as quantitatively one-sided as you may think when you look at the team surrounding Jon last year and the team surrounding Kyrie this year. Overall, we basically swapped out LT and Z for Hairston and Thornton, but then everyone else on the roster gained a year of experience. Comparing the starting lineups, it's only a difference of one total year among the other four starters. And if you look at the top 8 players surrounding each, then Kyrie's teammates actually have more experience overall.

Surrounding Jon, 2009-10
SR: Thomas, Zoubek, Davidson*
JR: Singler, Smith, Peters
SO: Plumlee
FR: Plumlee, Dawkins, Kelly, Zavirofksi

Starters (surrounding Jon)
JR, JR, SR, SR
2/2/3/3
10 years experience

Rotation, top 8 (surrounding Jon)
JR, JR, SR, SR, SO, FR, FR, FR
2/2/3/3/1/0/0/0
11 years experience

Surrounding Kyrie, 2010-11
SR: Singler, Smith, Peters
JR: Plumlee
SO: Plumlee, Curry*, Dawkins, Kelly, Zavirofski
FR: Hairston, Thornton

Assumed starters (surrounding Kyrie)
SR, SR, JR, SO
3/3/2/1
9 years experience

Assumed rotation, top 8 (surrounding Kyrie)
SR, SR, JR, SO, SO*, SO, SO, FR
3/3/2/1/2/1/1/0
14 years experience...or 13.5 if you discount Seth's redshirt season.

Then if you factor in qualitative experience, I think Mason as a SO has more in-game experience than Miles did entering last year as a SO. As for the SRs, it's pretty safe to say that Singler and Smith have more in-game experience entering this year than LT and Z had entering last year. And, as mentioned by sand above, we have some returning national championship experience now that we didn't have last year.

Of course, you're right that Scheyer was more experienced then than Irving is now, so that kind of throws off the numbers in the grand scheme of "which team is more experienced." But if we just look at the players surrounding our starting PG, it's a different story.

[dukestheheat]

With Irving at the point, Duke is going to turn on the jets. We certainly should see more turnovers (than with Jon at the point last year) but with Duke in jet mode, it shouldn't matter as much because we'll be scoring in droves. Remember, we are picking up the Number One scoring guard in Irving and then here comes Curry along with Dawkins and Nolan Smith! Whoaa! That would give some pro teams a push!

The Duke team last year was more methodical with the steady Scheyer running the point, and that paid off; this year's team is just going to run the opponent off of the floor.

dth.