Best Krzyzewski-era players...

[oregon98er]

A Duke friend of mine recently got married and the conversations during the weekend often turned to general Duke memories and basketball in particular. We need help from the DBR audience to settle one of those conversations.

A "draft" was staged among two friends of Krzyewski-era players...5 deep. But there was no consensus among the group of which team would "win". In retrospect, we should have went 7 or 8 deep, but this still has a resolution. Not only was there no consensus among the group, but most whom were asked to pick, couldn't give a firm choice. So, here are the teams...

Blue Team:
Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier
Christian Laettner
Shelden Williams

White Team:
Bobby Hurley
JJ Redick
Grant Hill
Danny Ferry
Elton Brand

The proposed matchups should be pretty obvious playing the traditional Duke man-to-man.

We did note that the teams were skewed towards the 90's with no Amaker, Alarie, etc. from the late 80's. Obviously, if we would have went 7 or 8 deep those names would have shown up. So, I ask you, DBR readership for insight, opinions, and analysis...

[cato]

A Duke friend of mine recently got married and the conversations during the weekend often turned to general Duke memories and basketball in particular. We need help from the DBR audience to settle one of those conversations.

A "draft" was staged among two friends of Krzyewski-era players...5 deep. But there was no consensus among the group of which team would "win". In retrospect, we should have went 7 or 8 deep, but this still has a resolution. Not only was there no consensus among the group, but most whom were asked to pick, couldn't give a firm choice. So, here are the teams...

Blue Team:
Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier
Christian Laettner
Shelden Williams

White Team:
Bobby Hurley
JJ Redick
Grant Hill
Danny Ferry
Elton Brand

The proposed matchups should be pretty obvious playing the traditional Duke man-to-man.

We did note that the teams were skewed towards the 90's with no Amaker, Alarie, etc. from the late 80's. Obviously, if we would have went 7 or 8 deep those names would have shown up. So, I ask you, DBR readership for insight, opinions, and analysis...

No Boozer?

[HoganLake]

No Boozer?

I would sub Boozer for Williams also...

[Jfrosh]

I'd pay big money to see that game. Here is the breakdown as I see it.

Hurley vs. Williams - Hurley's big game/moment prowess, defensive skills, passing and offence vs Williams quickness, big game/moment prowess and offense - PUSH

JJ vs Johnny - Both would put up some points, but JJ could not stop Johnny's offense and JJ would have difficulty putting up big numbers vs Duke's team man to man. Advantage - Johnny (Blue)

Battier vs Hill - Battier is a huge team player and may get Hurley in foul trouble drawing charges, but Grant is so skilled offensively and defensively he would have to get the edge. Advantage - Hill (White)

Laettner Vs. Ferry - Both good inside and out. Ferry was a better passer, Laettner much stronger inside and rebounder. Laettner probably better at the big moment. (Probably the best in college basketball history at making big shots. Advantage - Laettner (Blue)

Shelden vs Brand - Both big defensively but Brand was much more skilled offensively. Advantage - Brand. (White)

The white team will pound it into Elton and then hit from 3. While the blue team will slash inside for the midrange game, possibly drawing some white foul touble. With Battier in their to stop Hurley's drives the fouls will rack up on the white team.
White will be up by 4 with under 10 seconds left to go. Williams (BLUE) will hit a 3 then steal the inbounds pass throw it to Laettner who will hit the winning basket as time expires. Blue wins as Thomas Hill cries on the sideline.

[jimsumner]

If you're just looking at college careers, the 4-year career of Shelden Williams looks a bit better than the 3-year career of Carlos Boozer. Boozer only made All-ACC once and never made first-team A-A.

Of course, some of us would try to find a place for Mr. Alarie.

[oregon98er]

Yeah, we were just thinking about what they accomplished at Duke. For that reason, Boozer didn't make either team. But if you went 8 deep, he'd be a nice guy coming off the bench.

And Mr. Alarie is a tough one. But whom do you take off that list and for matchup reasons, he'd have a hard time with Brand or Williams, don't you think?

[Classof06]

I'd pay big money to see that game. Here is the breakdown as I see it.

Hurley vs. Williams - Hurley's big game/moment prowess, defensive skills, passing and offence vs Williams quickness, big game/moment prowess and offense - PUSH

Hurley's the man, but I didn't see anyone in 3 years that could guard J Will one on one. Hurley would have his hands more than full. And that's nothing to be ashamed of, either.

[jimsumner]

Alarie? Simple. Move Laettner to the 5 and play Alarie at the 4. Reluctantly send Shel to the bench. Or maybe not. A case can be made either way.

It's a tribute to K's program that great players like Vince Taylor, Tommy Amaker, Roshown McLeod, Trajan Langdon, Chris Carrawell, Mike Dunleavy, Dahntay Jones, and Chris Duhon don't even make the discussion.

[Mwalimu]

Where's the Shelden love? Two straight NATIONAL defensive player of the year awards. Top rebounder and most blocked shots in Duke history. Led ACC in rebounds (first Coach K player to do so) and blocks and finished in the top 5 in steals his senior year. Second most double-doubles in Duke history and one of three Duke players with a triple-double. Plus he averaged more points his senior year than Boozer ever did. There's a reason that Shelden's jersey is hanging from the rafters.

Consider this: Between just Shelden and Battier, the Blue team has 5 National Defensive Player of the Year awards. Who's going to score against that front line? Throw in the high-scoring backcourt of Dawkins and J Williams and that's one crazy team on both ends of the court. Oh, and they also happen to have arguably the best overall college player of all time in Laettner too. I enthusiastically vote for the Blue team.*

* For sake of full disclosure, I must admit that I'm the friend alluded to by Oregon98er who "drafted" this Blue team.

[Lord Ash]

Just making sure you guys saw this post...

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...ead.php?t=2093

It is along the lines of the game you are playing!

According to the voting, the blue team has three starters, a bench player, and an "other great."

The White team has two starters, two bench players, an an "other great."

So you guys nailed all of the Starters and Bench guys who got votes, and two of the top three bench guys, missing only Gminski, who rated slightly higher than Shelden. Interesting!

[trinity92]

I'd put air brickey up against either of those teams all alone and have a ball watching him play. I suppose you could sub in Phil Henderson to give robert a breather.

[cato]

If you're just looking at college careers, the 4-year career of Shelden Williams looks a bit better than the 3-year career of Carlos Boozer. Boozer only made All-ACC once and never made first-team A-A.

Of course, some of us would try to find a place for Mr. Alarie.

I'm not so sure. One obvious point in Boozer's favor is the National Championship. The team would not have won that NC without Boozer in the middle. Also, Boozer's scoring would have been much higher had he not been sharing the ball with J-Will, Battier and Dunleavy (during his first two years, at any rate). Williams benefitted by being the 2nd option during his career.

At any rate, if you are putting together a team with Jason Williams, you almost have to include Boozer. They just mastered the pick and roll at the top of the key.

[jimsumner]

"Williams benefitted by being the 2nd option during his career."

Well, sorta. His last two seasons he was second option to the most prolific scorer in ACC history. His first two seasons he shared the ball with Dahntay Jones, Redick, Duhon, Ewing, and Deng, so other people were taking shots.

We're parsing pretty small gradations here. I would opt for Alarie, Shel, and Boozer in that order but am hardly inclined to argue with those who see it differently.

[Indoor66]

Naw, Brickey needs ...
Patrick Davidson. That combo wins against either listed team or permutations thereof!

[VaDukie]

I'd pay big money to see that game. Here is the breakdown as I see it.

Hurley vs. Williams - Hurley's big game/moment prowess, defensive skills, passing and offence vs Williams quickness, big game/moment prowess and offense - PUSH

Hurley's the man, but I didn't see anyone in 3 years that could guard J Will one on one. Hurley would have his hands more than full. And that's nothing to be ashamed of, either.

J Will was tough to guard, but Steve Blake always gave him problems. He always reminded be of Hurley with longer arms, so I wouldn't be so sure Hurley couldn't knock J Will off his game a little.

[JBDuke]

The cool thing about being a Duke fan is that there has been so much talent wearing blue and white in the past 25+ years that there are LOTS of choices. For example, this would be a heck of a team, IMO:

Amaker
Dunleavy
King
Alarie
Boozer

You have two of the best defenders to come through Duke in Amaker and King. Boozer gives you a great low post presence for interior scoring and rebounding. Alarie can score down low or drift out to the 3 point line. Dunleavy gives you a deep threat. Amaker gives you the "coach on the floor" presence. If you really want to get defensive, you could sub C-well for Mike, but I like Mike's shooting a little better than Chris's. If you need more offense, you could take Henderson over King. David was an excellent defender in his own right and more of an offensive threat.

These games are always fun!

[trinity92]

Will Avery
Phil Henderson
Luol Deng
Robert Brickey
Carlos Boozer

This team would get up and down the floor like nobody's business, shoot lights out from the outside, have deng and boozer owning the boards and blocking shots, with amazing on the ball defense and speed at both guard slots. Phil would stay in JJ's face and could foul him out on the other end with ease. Avery was just as fast as Hurley and JW and could really shoot from outside. Brickey is simply the man-- I'd pay to see him one on one with G. Hill any day.

Does your team have a player who dunked over Alonzo Mourning? Didn't think so.

[oregon98er]

But there might be a reason why none of those jerseys are hanging in Cameron. We were on campus with Avery and went to a ton of his games, and while a freakish athlete, please don't put him in the class of Williams and Hurley. Please.

And while Brickey was a phenomenal athelete and dunk-master for sure, Grant had a lot of that as well...oh yeah, and he could score from other than 2 ft away and won a National Defensive POY award too.

Had Deng stayed around more than one year, maybe...but he really only had great numbers in the Final Four run. He was slightly above average for at least half the year. His stats for half a year simply don't add up to the careers of the others mentioned in this post.

Boozer's merit is documented on this post and Phil Henderson was great. Those two would definitely have been on one of the benches.

Half of that team seems to rely on someone else to help them score. Obviously, Deng and Avery could score on their own, but there wouldn't be enough shots to go around with Will running the show. Perhaps Boozer was the best passer of those 5?

And do you really think that white team couldn't run the floor?

[Hector Vector]

My starting 5 (based totally on Duke career, not pro career). More years count in player's favor, although not dispositive)

PG -- Hurley (closest competition over Williams)
SG - J.D.
SF -- G. Hill
PF -- Battier
C-- Laettner

Second Team

PG -- J-Will
SF -- JJ
SF -- Alarie (cheating a little as he was a 4 in college)
PF -- Ferry
C -- Shelden (Brand loses ground because of only 1 1/2 yrs)

Third Team

PG -- Amaker (edges Duhon)
SG -- Trajan
SF -- C-Well
PF -- Dunleavy
C -- Brand

Least favorite playor: Greg Newton (by far)

[mepanchin]

Where's the Shelden love? Two straight NATIONAL player of the year awards. Top rebounder and most blocked shots in Duke history. Led ACC in rebounds (first Coach K player to do so) and blocks and finished in the top 5 in steals his senior year. Second most double-doubles in Duke history and one of three Duke players with a triple-double. Plus he averaged more points his senior year than Boozer ever did. There's a reason that Shelden's jersey is hanging from the rafters.

Your points are well taken, but I have an argument in favor of Boozer.

Shelden's career achievements are incredibly admirable, there is no doubt, but perhaps what is most admirable is his ability to stay on the floor his junior and senior seasons. Big men typically don't play the kind of minutes he had to in 05 and 06: 83.7% and 82.9% (of total minutes he could play) respectively. By comparison, Boozer played 70.7% of the possible minutes his junior year (and sophomore year the numbers are even worse considering he was out for about 7 games).

All the "raw" stats that Shel ostensibly one-ups Boozer with are subject to this problem. Boozer simply did not log nearly the same kind of floor time that Shel did, so there's no possible way for him to compete.

Of course, Shel was a much better shot blocker. For his career he was usually had around a 9-10% block rate (that is, he blocked approximately 9-10% of all opponent 2 point attempts while he was on the floor), whereas Boozer's was nearly nonexistent.

In Boozer's favor, though, he was far more refined around the basket offensively. Shelden may have averaged more points, but Boozer was far more efficient. Both players rarely turned it over, but Boozer shot 66.5% from the field his junior year, while Shel shot about 58% (which is still very admirable). Boozer was also as good a rebounder offensively (maybe better) and maybe only a bit worse defensively (by probably the same margin). Boozer also got to the line more often per FGA.

I guess ultimately my point is that Boozer was to offense what Shelden was to defense. Both learned to play the side of the ball they weren't as naturally comfortable with very well by their final years, but they offered different benefits.

On a team already with JWill and Dawkins, I would not really find the need for Shel's defense to override the need for Boozer's offense. A perfectly balanced offense can just destroy even excellent defensive teams (see Florida this year against almost anyone), and Shel's excellent help D was really most useful to clean up the mess caused by Redick's poor perimeter defense. Throw a couple guys in the backcourt who will harass opposing guards and cause turnovers, and I think Boozer is the more valuable player for the team.