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  1. #1
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    The Jeter Spectacle

    Replay is a HOT topic right now, especially after Jeter's phantom HBP and the CJ catch, no-catch, well, sort of a catch incident in Chicago.

    An interesting sub-topic that's developed is the notion that athletes should either 'respect' the game enough or 'have enough character' to come clean (if it can be called such) when it's clear that a wrong call was made. Jeter is one of those athletes in pro sports that seems to reside on a different plateau as far as public perception goes which is what I think fuels a lot of this discussion, but I'm curious to hear what you all think in regard to players owning up to referee's mistakes. I've played most sports competitively including soccer through college and if you ask me, Jeter's right. You do what it takes to win (certain, notable things excepted). It's simply not the same as stealing a gumball from a candy store or cheating on a test in the classroom. I can't really explain it, but ethically - to me - it's just in a different zone.

  2. #2
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    Arlington, VA
    Looking through my Yankee colored glasses, I have no problem with what Jeter did, although he did ham it up a bit too much, IMO. It's his job as leadoff hitter to get on base. No player in their right mind is going to tell the ump he was wrong and step back into the batter's box. Players have always faked getting hit. It's part of the game until they allow instant replay on it, which I hope they don't do - game is long enough now.

  3. #3
    I wonder how many times fans might have wished that a batter would lean into a pitch in order to get on base?

  4. #4
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    Partly Orlando, FL partly heard Sandpoint, ID
    To me there's a world of difference between accepting what you know is a wrong call by an ump and faking injury to deliberately induce the umpire to make the wrong call. I despise it in soccer, and I despise it in baseball. The ends do not justify the means. And if its all about getting a win doing whatever you can to achieve that, then I will have no respect for those winners. I can certainly say I've never liked the Yankees(I am a Red Sox fan after all), but for the last 15 words, I couldn't have said a bad word about the behavior of Rivera, Posada, and Jeter on the field. In one of those cases, that isn't the case anymore and that's sad, because I prefer to have an opposition that I can at least respect.

    Or to put another way, Calipari is a great guy, he's just doing whatever it takes to win at Kentucky. Really, its a great thing. If that's the prevailing attitude, let me reach for my barf bag.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Deslok View Post
    To me there's a world of difference between accepting what you know is a wrong call by an ump and faking injury to deliberately induce the umpire to make the wrong call. I despise it in soccer, and I despise it in baseball. The ends do not justify the means. And if its all about getting a win doing whatever you can to achieve that, then I will have no respect for those winners. I can certainly say I've never liked the Yankees(I am a Red Sox fan after all), but for the last 15 words, I couldn't have said a bad word about the behavior of Rivera, Posada, and Jeter on the field. In one of those cases, that isn't the case anymore and that's sad, because I prefer to have an opposition that I can at least respect.

    Or to put another way, Calipari is a great guy, he's just doing whatever it takes to win at Kentucky. Really, its a great thing. If that's the prevailing attitude, let me reach for my barf bag.
    What he said ^

    When the ump makes the call you just keep your mouth shut and take the base for the team. You don't step out, play injured, let your trainer run out and make a spectacle, etc etc.

  6. #6
    Unsportsmanlike conduct.

    Will the last sports idol that is actually clean of PEDs, that doesn't cheat to get ahead, that keeps his word and acts reasonably off the playing field ... please turn out the light?

    Maybe it's a good time to stop putting these guys up on pedestals.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    Unsportsmanlike conduct.

    Will the last sports idol that is actually clean of PEDs, that doesn't cheat to get ahead, that keeps his word and acts reasonably off the playing field ... please turn out the light?

    Maybe it's a good time to stop putting these guys up on pedestals.
    I think the point of some of the above discussion is that everybody--literally EVERYBODY--does it. Our guys are good at taking charges, but they are also good (sometimes) at flopping and making minor contact look like a steamroller. Outfielders who trap balls pretend they made the catch. It's part of the game.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    I think the point of some of the above discussion is that everybody--literally EVERYBODY--does it. Our guys are good at taking charges, but they are also good (sometimes) at flopping and making minor contact look like a steamroller. Outfielders who trap balls pretend they made the catch. It's part of the game.
    This is all true. However, Jeter didn't need to do any of what he did to get the call. He had already been awarded 1st base. There's absolutely no need to hunch over like you just broke your wrist and have the trainer come out. You shake your hand a couple times to reinforce in the umpire's mind that he saw what he thought he saw and then go to 1st base. Then this is a non-issue.

  9. #9

    Taking a dive for the team

    Reminds me of a forgotten tar heel player, one of less than admirable free-throw shooting capability, who near the end of the game was "injured" near mid court in Cameron.

    Another player had to shoot the free throws for him.

    Then a miraculous recovery occurred and he re-entered the game.

    (I've blocked out further details. Anyone remember specifics??)

    k

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Seattle, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimist View Post
    Reminds me of a forgotten tar heel player, one of less than admirable free-throw shooting capability, who near the end of the game was "injured" near mid court in Cameron.

    Another player had to shoot the free throws for him.

    Then a miraculous recovery occurred and he re-entered the game.

    (I've blocked out further details. Anyone remember specifics??)

    k
    It was in '01. Ron Curry faked the injury. Max Owens (85%+ from the line) shot the free throws. Curry was at the scorer's table to check back in w/in about 30 seconds (if memory serves).
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by kmspeaks View Post
    This is all true. However, Jeter didn't need to do any of what he did to get the call. He had already been awarded 1st base. There's absolutely no need to hunch over like you just broke your wrist and have the trainer come out. You shake your hand a couple times to reinforce in the umpire's mind that he saw what he thought he saw and then go to 1st base. Then this is a non-issue.
    Not only that, but they showed a frame-by-frame slo motion with the perfect view last night. He let go of the bat with his left hand, the one toward the pitcher with all the padding. The ball hit the bottom of the bat. Neither the ball nor the bat was in contact with his left arm at any point during the incident. He claimed afterward that there was some vibration to his hand and that's what he was dealing with off to the side. However, in the replay, he is CLEARLY cradling his LEFT arm, which was a foot away from the bat when it was hit.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Tampa
    I like Jeter. I dislike this, from him or anyone else. "Everyone does it" or "it's part of the game" doesn't resonate as a good reason to me. Would we want our little league players doing it?

  13. #13
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampaDuke View Post
    I like Jeter. I dislike this, from him or anyone else. "Everyone does it" or "it's part of the game" doesn't resonate as a good reason to me. Would we want our little league players doing it?
    I would add to your list any form of "He's just doing his job."

  14. #14
    To me, there's a massive difference between not disputing a bad call that goes your way, and intentionally acting hurt/fouled in a way to elicit a call from the refs or umpires.

    In the first, you have no obligation to correct the ref. It's their job, not yours.

    In the second, you're trying to create something out of nothing. It's unsportsmanlike, plain and simple. I do not care for a culture that says it's OK for Jeter to do this, but yeah, if A-Rod did it, we'd rightly hold him up to obloquy. I grant that one has a track record of bush-league plays and the other doesn't, but that doesn't change whether this particular one is unsportsmanlike.

    If, as has been said, Jeter had ALREADY been awarded first base, then he should have just taken his base. As I saw the replay, his reaction was instant - he intended to act from the very moment he could tell the pitch was tight inside. It wasn't a case that he was awarded first and then started acting to cement the umpire's confidence in their call. He acted from the moment it hit his bat.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    To me, there's a massive difference between not disputing a bad call that goes your way, and intentionally acting hurt/fouled in a way to elicit a call from the refs or umpires.

    In the first, you have no obligation to correct the ref. It's their job, not yours.

    In the second, you're trying to create something out of nothing. It's unsportsmanlike, plain and simple. I do not care for a culture that says it's OK for Jeter to do this, but yeah, if A-Rod did it, we'd rightly hold him up to obloquy. I grant that one has a track record of bush-league plays and the other doesn't, but that doesn't change whether this particular one is unsportsmanlike.

    If, as has been said, Jeter had ALREADY been awarded first base, then he should have just taken his base. As I saw the replay, his reaction was instant - he intended to act from the very moment he could tell the pitch was tight inside. It wasn't a case that he was awarded first and then started acting to cement the umpire's confidence in their call. He acted from the moment it hit his bat.
    Is it unsportsmanlike for a center-fielder to hold up his glove like he caught it, even if he didn't? Is it unsportsmanlike for a running back to place the ball a yard further downfield after getting tackled? What about for a football (the other kind) player who's on a breakaway, is clipped by the defender ever so slightly and then continues to go down in order to get the penalty?

    It is the player's obligation to test the official's ability to judge the situation. How boring would baseball be if the batter just says, "Well Gosh Darn it, strike 3, I'm out." Or a corner that says, "You know buddy, you're right, I tugged on your jersey." A huge part of any of these games is the players' attempts at gaining any available advantage. It is the entire reason we have the instant replay vs "human element" debate. Because then, now, and in the future, players will do what they can in order to get that extra inch. Jeter's acting job was over the top; I admit that. But labeling him a "cheater" or "unsportsmanlike" is just silly.

    Either way, at least the Rays won. Can you imagine this debate if they'd lost and ended up losing the East by a half a game or so? They'd almost be as angry as the Irish are/were at Henry. Although they still wouldn't approach the English re: Maradona. Yikes.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGalt View Post
    Is it unsportsmanlike for a center-fielder to hold up his glove like he caught it, even if he didn't? Is it unsportsmanlike for a running back to place the ball a yard further downfield after getting tackled? What about for a football (the other kind) player who's on a breakaway, is clipped by the defender ever so slightly and then continues to go down in order to get the penalty?

    It is the player's obligation to test the official's ability to judge the situation. How boring would baseball be if the batter just says, "Well Gosh Darn it, strike 3, I'm out." Or a corner that says, "You know buddy, you're right, I tugged on your jersey." A huge part of any of these games is the players' attempts at gaining any available advantage. It is the entire reason we have the instant replay vs "human element" debate. Because then, now, and in the future, players will do what they can in order to get that extra inch. Jeter's acting job was over the top; I admit that. But labeling him a "cheater" or "unsportsmanlike" is just silly.

    Either way, at least the Rays won. Can you imagine this debate if they'd lost and ended up losing the East by a half a game or so? They'd almost be as angry as the Irish are/were at Henry. Although they still wouldn't approach the English re: Maradona. Yikes.
    I agree with all of your examples -- it is the players job and duty to his teammate to seek the advantage in situations. Most of us here do not disagree with you, HOWEVER, what upsets a lot of us isn't Jeter pretending to be hit -- it's the way he faked the injury AFTER being awarded first, holding his hand and waiting for the doctor etc...this is baseball, not soccer -- faking injury -- decidedly not cool.

  17. #17
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    Greenville, SC
    I was disappointed, but not very surprised, that Jeter faked being hit. I was very disappointed in the level of overacting. It was worthy of a James Brown concert.


    On the bright side, I get the chance to link this demotivational poster.


  18. #18
    Let's be clear, first of all, that we're firmly in the realm of opinion, not fact. With that background, I would say of your first paragraph, a qualified yes (it's unsportsmanlike) in all cases, with increasing confidence as you progress through your examples.

    The centerfielder: did they KNOW they didn't catch it? That makes a difference. Are they unsure? Then sure, lift up the glove and hope you did get it.

    Running back - the gesture is kind of meaningless, I'm not sure it affects the spot in most cases, but why not just put the ball down wherever you land?

    Football - clipped by a defender lightly: sounds like you're describing "taking a dive" and that seems to be clearly unsportsmanlike to me. A tougher example would be where the line is on offensive holding. It's a judgment call.

    But these aren't relevant to Jeter's case. Jeter invented a HBP out of whole cloth. Pretended to be hurt. Did he KNOW he wasn't hit? Yes, he did. It's dishonest. He doesn't need to volunteer info to the umpire.

    You write, it's the players obligation to test the official's ability to judge the situation. Do you believe that it's the driver's obligation to test the highway patrol's ability to control speeding? That it's the CFO's obligation to test the auditor's ability to detect accounting fraud? You see what a slippery slope we get on.

    The tugged jersey example: again, I think you're confusing sportsmanlike conduct and unnecessarily volunteering information. I'm not calling for any player to volunteer info to a ref or umpire at all - that's a straw man argument. I'm just saying, why not be a man and refrain from taking a dive, play acting hurt? Do we not all agree that those futbol players who get carted off on a stretcher, as if with two broken femurs, only to return a few minutes later, after getting the other team nailed with a yellow or red card thanks to their histrionics - that they're despicable? This isn't a whole lot different - only that Jeter had already been awarded the base.

    Note, I do not consider what Jeter did cheating. I'm not aware of any rule that prohibits acting as if you've been HBP. Maybe there is one - but I've not heard of it. Cheating would be something like corking a bat, spitballs and variants, PEDs, etc. You can play within the rules, technically, yet still be unsportsmanlike. In hoops, it's not cheating to flop (AFAIK). Is it unsportsmanlike? Yeah, I think so. Why not focus on getting in defensive position and take a real charge? In baseball, it's not cheating to hit the guy who homered off you last at bat. Is it unsportsmanlike? In my book, yes. What if you intentionally walk him and never give him a chance to hit? Not unsportsmanlike in my book. Intentional walks are within the rules and legitimate strategy.

    Anyway, as I said, this is all opinion, and mine differs from some.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGalt View Post
    Is it unsportsmanlike for a center-fielder to hold up his glove like he caught it, even if he didn't? Is it unsportsmanlike for a running back to place the ball a yard further downfield after getting tackled? What about for a football (the other kind) player who's on a breakaway, is clipped by the defender ever so slightly and then continues to go down in order to get the penalty?

    It is the player's obligation to test the official's ability to judge the situation. How boring would baseball be if the batter just says, "Well Gosh Darn it, strike 3, I'm out." Or a corner that says, "You know buddy, you're right, I tugged on your jersey." A huge part of any of these games is the players' attempts at gaining any available advantage. It is the entire reason we have the instant replay vs "human element" debate. Because then, now, and in the future, players will do what they can in order to get that extra inch. Jeter's acting job was over the top; I admit that. But labeling him a "cheater" or "unsportsmanlike" is just silly.

    Either way, at least the Rays won. Can you imagine this debate if they'd lost and ended up losing the East by a half a game or so? They'd almost be as angry as the Irish are/were at Henry. Although they still wouldn't approach the English re: Maradona. Yikes.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    Let's be clear...

    ...Anyway, as I said, this is all opinion, and mine differs from some.
    Great post, CSPAN. You certainly make some sound arguments. I think where we differ most (without trying to get TOO philisophical) is the difference between ethics in the real world and ethics in sports, probably more appropriately termed 'sportsmanship.' Certainly though you acknowledge the difference in speeding or cooking the books in relation to taking a dive or faking a catch?

    It's impossible to say, but I'd suspect overwhelmingly more often than not the baseball/football player knows whether he actually caught the ball. Generally speaking, the umpire makes the correct call and - as a result of the correct call - the player doesn't put up much of a fuss...which sort of indicates this. The 'clipped' example is an interesting one because except for maybe hockey I'm not sure there's another sport where this sort of play could happen. If I'm in the position to score (like it really looks like it's going to happen, i.e. breakaway) and I'm altered - whether bumped off balance, heals clipped, whatever - to the point where my chance of scoring has been significantly reduced, but I'm still on feet (in whatever capacity)...you must go down. Plain and simple. I would argue that in soccer, moreso than any other sport, one side can completely control the game and lose 0-1 so it's your obligation to put anything away you can. This scenario is much different than the typical "soccer players fall every time they're touched" attitude most Americans maintain (and many times, rightfully so). And in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with it. I know you'll read that and picture some player catapulting himself in the air while clutching both ankles and knees, but Rooney and Tevez and some of the other more hard-nosed players - that generally don't take part in the diving side of the game - all recognize and play in to that example. Is that unsportsmanlike?

    If you read above, I am in complete agreeance over his post-phantom HBP histrionics. I guess all I can say is that I think we'd be discussing it whether or not he "milked" it the way he did. The ball so clearly didn't hit his wrist, that had he dropped his bat and taken first shaking his wrist (but without all the other bellyaching), we'd all still be 'disappointed' or 'shocked' at the venerable Derek Jeter.

  20. #20

    Related situation with past Duke player

    Interesting comment, excerpted from a recent article about the legendary Max Crowder:

    "Kenny Dennard, who played alongside Gminski and Gene Banks, remembers fondly those times he would feign injury when opponents intentionally fouled him, putting his poor foul shooting skills to the test at the end of close games."

    http://www.gastongazette.com/sports/...d-trainer.html

    k

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