Martynas Pocius. Wasted at Duke?

[Skitzle]

I watched the USA Lithuania Game.

Here's my breakdown of Marty's game.

Offense,
1. His 3 point shot looks better, but if he had worked on it in college it would have gotten better too.
2. He is still a good athletic slasher with a great first step, but has trouble finishing after getting to the basket. I don't know if you guys have memories of Marty flying to the rim and then missing a shot. He did it from freshman year to senior year he did it at the World championship. Nothing has changed.

He scored a lot of his points on open 3s as a result of the Lit system and the USA not caring about defense

Defense.
1. Couldn't get a good read... the USA was just way better than everyone. No team really played great defense against them.

At the end of the day, I wish Marty much success, but how good is the Lithuania Pro League? Better than the NCAA? I've never watched so I can't tell you... The NCAA sends more players to NBA? The NCAA sends more players to the Fiba World Championships... is that some sort of measuring stick?

I can't believe he was misused at Duke.

[AZLA]

Here are some basic offense stats from the World Championship 2010 -- generally playing the same competition.

Marty
Accumulative
FG3P = 46%
FG2P = 63%
PTS = 86
Mins = 185

Eric Gordon
Accumulative
FG3P = 45%
FG2P = 47%
PTS = 77
Mins = 158

Andre Iguodala
Accumulative
FG3P = 28%
FG2P = 66%
PTS = 51
Mins = 169

Ricky Rubio
Accumulative
FG3P = 11%
FG2P = 36%
PTS = 51
Mins = 226

[NSDukeFan]

Here are some basic offense stats from the World Championship 2010 -- generally playing the same competition.

Marty
Accumulative
FG3P = 46%
FG2P = 63%
PTS = 86
Mins = 185

Eric Gordon
Accumulative
FG3P = 45%
FG2P = 47%
PTS = 77
Mins = 158

Andre Iguodala
Accumulative
FG3P = 28%
FG2P = 66%
PTS = 51
Mins = 169

Ricky Rubio
Accumulative
FG3P = 11%
FG2P = 36%
PTS = 51
Mins = 226

Well, I guess that settles it. I can't believe the dumb GMs who picked Gordon and Rubio ahead of Marty in the draft. I bet they are kicking themselves now.
On a serious note, nice statistics you pulled up and congratulations to Marty on a great tournament and I hope he continues to have a great career.

[gumbomoop]

I always liked Marty and wish he would have had a better playing career at Duke. The three reasons listed above are valid (defense, injuries, depth). At the same time, I always thought we needed to let Marty make a few mistakes and capitalize on this strengths. Back when MP was a hot topic on this board, I'd go re-watch games and focus on Marty. If I was going to read all the arguments, I wanted to informed :-). One thing I noticed is that many times he was kept on a very short leash. He'd make one mistake (often defensively) and get the hook immediately. In turn, I thought that lead to some tentative play on his part. Sometimes you have to let a guy make some mistakes so they don't spend their court time trying not to screw up. As many minutes as we played our starters, I would have liked to have seen MP get a little more run (and then maybe we'd argue less over minutes as well ). Of course, then he'd get injured and it wouldn't matter anyway.

I'm happy to see him doing well in the FIFA games and hope he has continued success.

Although one or two posters have suggested that any such discussion of Marty is a "beating a dead horse" thread, I don't think it's turned out that way. My own view echoes elvis14's, both in acknowledging the main counter-arguments to the idea that Marty was underused ["wasted"] at Duke - defensive deficiencies, injuries, talent ahead of him on the wing - while noting that [at least to his fervent advocates] he seemed on a short lease, getting a quick hook.

If one goes back to the OP, we find that this thread started because Marty had become a bit of a political football, used by Duke-haters as evidence of K's bad coaching. [Hmmmmm....] But as it's turned out, Marty had a fine tourney, as did K. There's no evidence that Marty resents K. Fraschilla noted that some NBA teams have talked of giving Marty a look; but even if that does not eventuate, Marty appears to have a solid career ahead of him in EuroBall, which itself has gained some cred as a result of the disciplined O [multiple screens, pick&roll, good passing, multiple 3-bombers]. We'll get a chance to hear from Marty again.

Although we all want to refute the TweetTwits who had hoped to bash K by using Marty's good play [an irony noted by several posters], it's maybe worth briefly remembering that, in the aftermath of the departures of G and E-Will, but before Andre's announced early arrival, there was a bit of "Jeez, you think Marty might reconsider?" on these boards.

Things worked out for Duke, for K, for USA Basketball, for Marty and Lithuania, for the EuroGame [except maybe the arm-rasslin'-hand-checkin'] - in fact, for pretty much everyone save Duke-hatin'-TweetTwits.

[AZLA]

Well, I guess that settles it. I can't believe the dumb GMs who picked Gordon and Rubio ahead of Marty in the draft. I bet they are kicking themselves now.

Marty never declared for the NBA draft.

[Wildcat]

There were times when I said he had NBA po. Posters laughed, scoffed and just about ran me off the board. But when you have basketball gurus such as Fraschelli, and others saying he might get NBA looks, its obvious they know more than any of the "Marty-haters." Marty always had potent offensive skills. I never bought the defensive theory because: the others playing before him were'nt "off the dribble defensive stoppers either." The defensive argument was almost "offensive." You mean to tell me you can't help a guy improve his defense over a 4 or 5 year span?!? C'mon people. The guy was in K's doghouse for reasons only a few can explain. Plain and simple!

[OldPhiKap]

The guy was in K's doghouse for reasons only a few can explain.

I guess that's the issue. The coaching staff knows, but has kept it internal. Marty hasn't commented on it and apparently has good things to say about his time at Duke. So why not take it at face value -- the coach knew best, and the player does not dispute it?

[ncexnyc]

Was Marty on a shortleash? No more than any other player at Duke. One thing I've learned from watching approximately 25 years of Duke basketball is that the players who perform are the ones that get the playing time.

I've butted heads with Jumbo over force feeding kids playing time, but that's just not the way it works at Duke and I've come to accept that fact. If a kid gets on the court and then fails to demonstrate what he's been taught in practice he's coming out.

Let's also be honest, with the talent this program brings in year after year, if a kid isn't getting it done, someone will be right behind him to take his place.

[Poincaré]

A person does not stop growing at age 21. Marty seems to have developed more since leaving Duke, and I am sure all of us are very happy for him. Marty may not be better than Eric Gordon, but he showed that he belongs on the same FIBA court (The same NBA court? That's TBD). That is development. Now, I do believe that Marty has been practicing with the Lithuanian team for a while, so he had an advantage in preparation. However, can anyone deny that he's made a big improvement since leaving Duke? At the foundation of that improvement is four years of going up against All-ACC, All-America, and NBA-level talent in practice. If you aspire to be a pro in basketball without sacrificing your education (as one would in the Euro League junior teams), could you ask for a better environment than what he had at Duke?

I think the reason that any debate about Marty is contentious is that there's a lot of truth to all the arguments being made. Yes, Marty definitely would have put up better stats if he got 20 minutes of PT per game. In that sense, his potential to put up numbers was "wasted' at Duke...except "wasted" isn't the right word. We should ask who did the wasting and what was wasted. Not Duke. The team had many better players ahead of him, who could put up better numbers. Did Marty waste his time at Duke? If he went to an inferior program and got 20+min per game, he would be playing 30 games against competition inferior to what he could have gotten in practice every day at Duke. No, Marty did not waste his time here. But let's be clear, he was better than what he showed at Duke.

The conclusion is that the following two statements are not contradictory:

1) Marty was not wasted at Duke.
2) Marty was/is better than what he showed at Duke.

The few tinges of conflict that have come to be in this thread originate from two lines of reasoning.

A) Marty is better than what he showed at Duke, therefore Marty was wasted at Duke. (Argument: #2 implies negation of #1, which I argued above to be a fallacy).
B) Marty was/is what he showed at Duke (not much), therefore Marty was not wasted at Duke (Argument: negation of #2 implies #1, which I also believe to be a fallacy).

Notice that the two lines of reasoning are logically equivalent, and rely on #1 and #2 being mutually contradictory.

Lastly, if I may go on a tangent, Marty's presence on those Duke teams was very enjoyable for me. Waiting for Marty to get PT was an annual tradition. Every Duke team has at least one such player every year. Sometimes, that player develops nicely and we get a huge emotional reward. At other times, that player develops more slowly, and he graduates before he can show us how much he's learned. Yet we can all remember players like Marty fondly. That's all part of what makes the college game great, no?

[hq2]

At the foundation of that improvement is four years of going up against All-ACC, All-America, and NBA-level talent in practice.

Precisely. If Marty were really better than the players he played against, he had four years in practice to prove it, and it didn't happen. He simply wasn't. The players on his European team are not as good as the ones were at Duke, the overall comp style is different too, and Marty has continued to improve since then. Hopefully, he'll have a nice career in Europe. After his Duke days, however, I'd say the NBA is a stretch.

[jimsumner]

There were times when I said he had NBA po. Posters laughed, scoffed and just about ran me off the board. But when you have basketball gurus such as Fraschelli, and others saying he might get NBA looks, its obvious they know more than any of the "Marty-haters." Marty always had potent offensive skills. I never bought the defensive theory because: the others playing before him were'nt "off the dribble defensive stoppers either." The defensive argument was almost "offensive." You mean to tell me you can't help a guy improve his defense over a 4 or 5 year span?!? C'mon people. The guy was in K's doghouse for reasons only a few can explain. Plain and simple!

You never bought the defensive theory? You never bought the idea that the coach would play the players who gave his team the best chance to win?

Instead, you prefer a theory where Pocius was in some sort of mysterious doghouse for reasons not explained and causes not evident but still stayed at Duke for four seasons, graduated from the school and maintains a close relationship with the coaches and program.

Some doghouse.

Occam's razor, anyone?

[DevilHorns]

Does anyone actually know if Marty is getting serious looks from the NBA now because of his international play?

Are people outside of forums/blogs raving about his play?

[Poincaré]

Precisely. If Marty were really better than the players he played against, he had four years in practice to prove it, and it didn't happen. He simply wasn't. The players on his European team are not as good as the ones were at Duke, the overall comp style is different too, and Marty has continued to improve since then. Hopefully, he'll have a nice career in Europe. After his Duke days, however, I'd say the NBA is a stretch.

Given how good his competition was at Duke, I'd say we can't say much about Marty's abilities other than that he was a clear notch below the excellent guards who were ahead of him. Because his competition was so good, if you think about it, that really leaves us with a wide range of possibilities for Marty's true abilities.

I agree with your assessment above. However, I do object to putting a ceiling on a young man's career already.

I understand that you didn't rule out the NBA completely. After all, a "stretch" is not the same thing as impossible. My elaboration below is merely for those who would completely rule out the NBA for Marty.

Who is to say that he won't be able to make it onto the end of an NBA bench somewhere in say 5 years? Like I said, there is room for Marty to grow. A team might sign him when he hits his peak and play him for two years. He is not good enough today, but who's to say he won't be good enough 5 years from now? Marty is not yet 25! Would you like it if someone told you what your ceiling was at age 25? Yes, his likely career trajectory puts him in Europe, and there is plenty to be proud of in such a career. However, that is something to be celebrated after the fact. To say today that he won't be in the NBA ever seems a little bit tragic to me. Instead, I suggest that we make our well wishes for Marty be more open-ended---i.e., I hope he maximizes his potential; I hope he makes a lot of money; etc.

[Poincaré]

There were times when I said he had NBA po. Posters laughed, scoffed and just about ran me off the board. But when you have basketball gurus such as Fraschelli, and others saying he might get NBA looks, its obvious they know more than any of the "Marty-haters." Marty always had potent offensive skills. I never bought the defensive theory because: the others playing before him were'nt "off the dribble defensive stoppers either." The defensive argument was almost "offensive." You mean to tell me you can't help a guy improve his defense over a 4 or 5 year span?!? C'mon people. The guy was in K's doghouse for reasons only a few can explain. Plain and simple!

You see, Marty DID improve his defense over those years. The thing is, his teammates improved their defense, too! Also, look at the list of players who were ahead of him each year. That is an impressive list.

05-06 Freshman. Had Shelden Williams, but behind DeMarcus Nelson, JJ Redick, Greg Paulus, Sean Dockery.
06-07 Donut. McBob the only post presence, with freshmen Zoubek and Thomas. Behind Nelson, Scheyer, Paulus, Henderson
07-08 Major Donut. Only pre-beard Zoubs and Lance. Injured. Behind Nelson, Scheyer, Paulus, Smith. Probably his best chance, given that Paulus was fading fast and Smith was a frosh.
08-09 Donut. Miles was a frosh. Zoubs before he was Z-Beard. Behind Scheyer, Henderson, Smith, Williams.

Any defensive shortcomings Marty had would have been magnified on these donut teams. He might not have been as bad on D as some are saying he was, but whatever weaknesses he had as an individual would have made his teammates worse at defense. The few bigs we had, who were defensive liabilities themselves at times, would have gotten into foul trouble quicker.

There is not any reason to believe that Marty was ever in K's doghouse. Now Taylor King...I could see that.

[gumbomoop]

I was/am a Marty cheerleader. Still, I see no evidence of Marty having been in K's doghouse. It would be interesting to view numerous tapes of Marty's final (junior eligibility) season, to compare his play - with particular focus on mistakes, and how quickly he was pulled thereafter, compared to mistakes by others. But that would take far more research than anyone is likely to do.

Although no one would be willing - now - to mess with Duke's '09-'10 season, I have to think that, roughly 15-16 months ago, we'd all have been Marty cheerleaders. For, IIRC [but maybe I'm confusing the sequence of events], G departed, then Marty departed, then Elliot departed. Had Elliot left before Marty made his decision, and well before there was any suggestion of an early arrival by Andre, I assume we'd all have been saying, "Wow, Marty's going to get a chanced to play a whole lot this year. He'll do fine on O. Hope his D improves. We need him to step up on both ends of the court, or we're toast."

[Tim1515]

Marty was on a short leash but i think he earned that leash at practice. I always hoped he would earn more game time at Duke but when he got in he was like a ball of fire. Sometimes things went well but more often then not he'd take a crazy shot or pass a wild ball.

I do think he would've been better with more court time. I also think he could've put up some really good numbers at another school. The issue was that Marty was a gambler. He might have put up good steals over his career but what you would've have seen on the stat sheet is how out of position he was in help side defense or how many times missed steals turned into easy baskets.

I wish him well and enjoy watching him play, he is electric, but he didn't play with the structure K wants in all of his players.

[micah75]

Being a bench player on a team is NOT being a cheerleader. The only people who would say such a thing are those who have never been there, which I take it would include you.

I'm not getting your put down and think it is a off putting.

I had hestiated to respond to this, as it seems a bit preposterous, and not sure it deserves a reply. But just to set the record straight, in case Marty or his family reads these boards, it was *not* a put-down of Marty. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm sorry that you took what I said in the wrong way. Perhaps you had a bad day and I was an easy target for venting? Hang in there---it won't be long before Jumbo is back in full season form, and you'll have much more qualified posters with which to spar. :-)

I suppose I could have couched what I said with what had already been said before... a great practice player, a darn good if not great athlete who honed his basketball skills against some of the best players in the country (who were on his own team no less), who received a superb education, etc etc. And there's nothing at all to be ashamed of with cheerleading from the bench. It shows he's a team player and is not one to sulk due to lack of PT. Even star players cheerlead from the bench when they're taken out of the game for whatever reason (fouls, breather, outcome already decided, etc.) I've tended to side with the group that preferred he would have received more PT during his career. Then again, I do understand the reasons why he didn't, from those much closer to the program, so I'm not addressing that issue.

My main point was, as I stated, and which you apparently overlooked, was that he paid his dues. Some fans wish that he would have stayed on for a 5th season (if you count the redshirt year.) I disagree with that minority and feel that now that he's honed his skills and received his degree, he should do what's best for Marty. Apparently he loves playing basketball and feels he has something to contribute professionally. How that translates into a major "put-down" of one of my favorite players during the past decade, I do not know. Perhaps I'm not as articulate as I once was, if I ever was articulate to begin with.

Anyway Marty, and to his family, friends, and fans... I thoroughly enjoyed your time at Duke, and wish you all the best and will be eagerly looking forward to progress reports through DBR and other sources.

[Wildcat]

I know basketball players; I know scorers; I played the game and was pretty decent. Trust me, Marty could play. If Marty's defense was as bad as posters present it; or if he wasn't that good; we wouldn't be still discussing this issue about a player who transferred the year their favorite team won the NCAA championship. C'mon people, look at the history and the views of this thread/topic? Why would we waste our time on a guy who had bad defense?????

We will be real good this year. Go Duke

[jimsumner]

I know basketball players; I know scorers; I played the game and was pretty decent. Trust me, Marty could play. If Marty's defense was as bad as posters present it; or if he wasn't that good; we wouldn't be still discussing this issue about a player who transferred the year their favorite team won the NCAA championship. C'mon people, look at the history and the views of this thread/topic? Why would we waste our time on a guy who had bad defense?????

We will be real good this year. Go Duke

I don't follow your logic. We're discussing Pocius because his play on his national team in the recent FIBA World Championships put him back in the spotlight. If he had gone back to Lithuiana to get a graduate degree in Physics, we wouldn't be having this thread.

Look,we have three alternatives here. One is that Pocius didn't play as much as he might because his overall game was not the equal of a number of All-Americans, All-ACC Players and NBA lottery picks who also played his position.

Two, is that for some nefarious reasons, Mike Krzyzewski and his staff kept Pocius in their "doghouse," not playing one of their best players and therefore compromising not only the success of the program but their long-term job prospects. No evidence has been offered for this thesis, I suspect for the very good reason that the theory is nonsense.

The third is that, despite a century or so of playing and coaching in college and the NBA, Krzyzewski, Dawkins/James, Collins and Wojo simply don't "know basketball players" as well as message-board posters.

At the risk of piling on, let me add that the coaching staff made/makes decisions on game-time PT in large part based on practices that are closed to not only the general public but also the media. Thus, I have no first-hand knowledge of what did or did not happen in those practices.

But I do have a fair amount of second-hand knowledge. And I can state with reasonable certainty that Marty Pocius did not demonstrate in practice that he deserved to play ahead of Redick, Dockery, Nelson, Scheyer, Henderson, Williams and Smith.

The untimely ankle injury he suffered that cost him a season played a part in that, as did a general inability to play defense at the level expected by the coaching and an inability to adequately harness his high-risk/high-reward offensive style.

BTW, Pocius did not transfer anywhere. He graduated on time and returned to his home country to begin a career. Pocius remains on excellent terms with the Duke program and the Duke coaches are delighted with the success he's found oversees.

As are Duke fans.

[JBDuke]

And with that excellent reply by jimsumner (as is his usual), I think this thread has covered all of the ground it needs to. There is no new ground being discussed here. If anyone has further info on Marty's pro career in Lithuania and wants to post about it, please create a new thread. This one is CLOSED.