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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieBoy View Post
    I don't agree if they do take it away

    Reggie's on the field performance was not affected by payments he received off the field. There's no doubt he was the best player in college football that year
    But according to the Mission Statement of the Heisman Trust, the Heisman Trophy award isn't for "the best player in college football that year." It is supposed to be awarded to "the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity." Aside from the fact that Bush clearly did not satisfy the "with integrity" requirement, it could be reasonably contended that he shouldn't even be considered a legitimate "college" football player because he was, in fact, receiving pecuniary benefits that were not permitted and were not available to all other student-athletes.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukieBoy View Post
    I don't agree if they do take it away

    Reggie's on the field performance was not affected by payments he received off the field. There's no doubt he was the best player in college football that year
    So, in the scenario I described above, where player X was the best player in college football but was declared ineligible by the NCAA prior to the Heisman being awarded, you think the award should still go to player X?

    Lets say we found out in early March last spring that John Wall had been getting paid all year by a Kentucky booster and was banned from playing any more college ball, would you still think he would deserve to win various Player of the Year awards?

    --Jason "I just picked Kentucky at random for this example " Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukieBoy View Post
    I don't agree if they do take it away

    Reggie's on the field performance was not affected by payments he received off the field. There's no doubt he was the best player in college football that year
    he was the best player on the field, however what about the players we never saw because they didn't have an SAT score to get INTO college....or what about a player that admitted already that he had taken money from an agent? or any OTHER player that wasn't eligible ? we don't know if there was someone else who would have been better than reggie because THEY WEREN'T ELIGIBLE to be on the field competing against reggie...

    that's the whole point....reggie shouldn't be on the field...period...


  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieBoy View Post
    I don't agree if they do take it away

    Reggie's on the field performance was not affected by payments he received off the field. There's no doubt he was the best player in college football that year
    I am fairly certain that Adrian Peterson, were he to go back to college next year, would be the best player in college football. Its a ridiculous statement because he is a pro and would never be allowed to compete in the college game. Bush was a pro and shouldn't have been able to compete and win the award.
    My Quick Smells Like French Toast.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Here is a wrinkle to consider--

    If voters could not have voted for Bush, it is quite likely many would have given their votes to Matt Leinart instead. I am not sure it would have been enough to beat VY, but recall that USC was a true offensive juggernaut that year and there was strong sentiment to reward them for their awesome on-field performance. Young and Texas were great, but were considered underdogs in the national title game, IIRC.

    --Jason "life is so much easier if you don't cheat and get caught " Evans

    USC would not have been the same "true offensive juggernaut" that year without Bush, and Leinart would not have been as effective a quarterback that year without Bush.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukieBoy View Post
    I don't agree if they do take it away

    Reggie's on the field performance was not affected by payments he received off the field. There's no doubt he was the best player in college football that year
    Wrong answer. His record was achieved dishonorably. He does not deserve to be honored with the Heisman Trophy.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmb View Post
    That would have been the best resolution in this case. You're right. Too bad it didn't happen that way.

    Just curious, does anyone know what Bush's reaction to this whole thing has been? Does he claim innocence or does he admit fault and have some sense of guilt?
    I don't think he's said anything at all. Honestly, why would he? He, like Derrick Rose, has nothing to gain by admitting anything and nothing to lose by keeping quiet. The Saints don't care that he took money. The Bulls couldn't care less what Rose's SAT score was. Heck, even Coach K isn't concerned with whether or not Rose cheated his way into Memphis right now. Once these athletes go pro, they're pretty much immune to any consequences, save for the possibility of some vacated wins, which may or may not have much effect on a player.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by COYS View Post
    Once these athletes go pro, they're pretty much immune to any consequences, save for the possibility of some vacated wins, which may or may not have much effect on a player.
    It's only fair. It's not like Pete Carroll or John Calipari faced much in the way of consequences after moving on to more lucrative positions.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukieBoy View Post
    I don't agree if they do take it away

    Reggie's on the field performance was not affected by payments he received off the field. There's no doubt he was the best player in college football that year
    With respect -- and without attempting to pile on -- I simply could not disagree more intensely.

    The Heisman's criteria specifically emphasize INTEGRITY, not football prowess alone. Further, that is entirely appropriate, especially since "student - athletes" are NOT professionals; rather, they are young people who are still in the educational phase of their lives, which encompasses a great deal more than formal academic training. Specially, it includes developing wisdom in ethics, in values, in culture, in decency, and in character.

    Moreover, were Bush to retain the Trophy, what message – leadership by example – would that send to future generations of student - athletes? The single plausible lesson would be that the ONLY on-field performance is pertinent; cheating, illicit payments, academic dishonesty, unauthorized agent dealings, felonious behavior, boorishness, and so forth are simply irrelevant.

    Is that the message, DukieBoy, that you would like your children, your grandchildren, or your siblings to assimilate?
    Last edited by 4decadedukie; 09-08-2010 at 03:08 PM.

  10. #30
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    Latest Update

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100913/...c_heisman_bushhttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100913/...c_heisman_bush

    The Heisman Trust is scheduled to meet tomorrow to determine if Bush will retain his Trophy.

  11. #31

    Bush Decides To Forfeit Heisman

    Bush has voluntarily forfeited the Heisman Trophy.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angele...ory?id=5572827

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Gator View Post
    Even more troubling to me in a broader sense, however, is the reaction of Vince Young's mother, who was quoted in the NYT article as having said, in response to a question about whether the trophy should now be awarded to her son:

    "We're not interested in having no honor and no glory out of somebody else they are trying to tear down, no," Felicia Young said, according to the report. "I say to Reggie Bush today 'You keep your head up.' "

    Here, in a nutshell, is an illustration of what I perceive as very serious problem that is leading to much ugliness: The complete absence of any sense of shame. If parents of "role models" don't discourage young people from engaging in selfish and dishonest behavior that violates the rules, but instead criticize those who try to enforce the rules for the purpose of promoting fairness and justice and a sense of responsibility, then what message does that send to other young people?

    Shame on the Heisman Trust if they don't revoke the award to Reggie Bush. Moreover, shame on Reggie Bush for not having the common decency to return the award as a matter of personal conscience. And most of all, shame on Felicia Young for telling the world that it doesn't matter whether someone's conduct is right or wrong--just don't let anyone take away what you've got, even if you didn't comply with the rules in getting it.
    Wow, that is harsh on Felicia Young. I mean, wow. She has quite a checkered past, but I don't read that comment that way at all. It sounds like to me that she's simply past it, and she doesn't think VY needs to swoop in and take Reggie Bush's "glory." Put another way -- the Heisman is gonna do what it's gonna do with Reggie, but we don't need to be involved.

    Reggie Bush is deservedly being raked through the coals right now, there is no shame in telling him to keep his chin up through the process, so long as he is also contrite.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Gator View Post
    Bush has voluntarily forfeited the Heisman Trophy.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angele...ory?id=5572827
    I liked this quote from Vince on the Heisman. It's basically the perfect answer.

    "I definitely want it, I definitely want it," Young told ESPN "But he won it fair and square definitely, and it's much respect to Reggie, man. He had a great career and he's already won a Super Bowl before me. I'm already mad about that.

    "But at the same time I am definitely happy for him, man, and he is definitely the Heisman Trophy winner for that year. But if they send it over to me I am not going to say no to it."

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    I liked this quote from Vince on the Heisman. It's basically the perfect answer.
    I like that as well. I wonder if the best thing to do instead of awarding it to another person is to just leave it unawarded. It would be like teams that have to give up wins retroactively due to NCAA punishment. When FSU and Bobby Bowden had to give up a number of wins due to student infractions their past opponents didn't win those games. They kept the losses, and FSU's wins were merely vacated. I believe that's the common practice for all teams that suffer the NCAA's ire...didn't Memphis have to vacate their wins, and not forfeit them? I would treat the Heisman that year the same way.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  15. #35
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    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  16. #36

    Young Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    Wow, that is harsh on Felicia Young. I mean, wow. She has quite a checkered past, but I don't read that comment that way at all. It sounds like to me that she's simply past it, and she doesn't think VY needs to swoop in and take Reggie Bush's "glory." Put another way -- the Heisman is gonna do what it's gonna do with Reggie, but we don't need to be involved.

    Reggie Bush is deservedly being raked through the coals right now, there is no shame in telling him to keep his chin up through the process, so long as he is also contrite.
    Tex - I don't agree with lots of your football related posts (particularly the BSU/VaTech thread recently) but I absolutely agree that both Vince Young and his mother have reacted quite honorably and honestly throughout this process.

    The fact of the matter is, Vince has nothing at all to do with the un-ceremonious process of taking away Bush's Heisman. Some people are giving Bush undue credit for forfeiting the prize rather than having it taken from him - I don't see that he had any logical options.

    Vince's mother trying to offer support to Reggie Bush strikes me as classy and unnecessarily kind; not many other people are rallying to his support, and she is in a unique position to do so without sounding like a ridiculous USC homer.

    Vince's own comments are very honest and classy as well. He could have easily side-stepped the issue with a "no comment" or even a truthful "it doesn't pertain to me." Instead, he admitted that he would love to have won the award, and that he was honored to have been considered but would not want to receive it under these circumstances.

    The behavior of pro athletes is by and large distasteful to me, and Vince doesn't generally strike me as a paragon of virtue, but I the statements by his mother and him have impressed me this week. It's a unique and unfortunate position for them.

    Bush on the other hand will certainly hope that this is a way to put the whole mess behind him with a simple press conference, while his school and the current players will be dealing with it for a long, long time. What a legacy to leave behind.

    I agree with the vacated award. Leave it there so that the next generation of sports fans ask the question "What happened?" It beats the heck out of asterisks.

  17. #37

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    Tex - I don't agree with lots of your football related posts (particularly the BSU/VaTech thread recently) but I absolutely agree that both Vince Young and his mother have reacted quite honorably and honestly throughout this process.

    The fact of the matter is, Vince has nothing at all to do with the un-ceremonious process of taking away Bush's Heisman. Some people are giving Bush undue credit for forfeiting the prize rather than having it taken from him - I don't see that he had any logical options.

    Vince's mother trying to offer support to Reggie Bush strikes me as classy and unnecessarily kind; not many other people are rallying to his support, and she is in a unique position to do so without sounding like a ridiculous USC homer.

    Vince's own comments are very honest and classy as well. He could have easily side-stepped the issue with a "no comment" or even a truthful "it doesn't pertain to me." Instead, he admitted that he would love to have won the award, and that he was honored to have been considered but would not want to receive it under these circumstances.

    The behavior of pro athletes is by and large distasteful to me, and Vince doesn't generally strike me as a paragon of virtue, but I the statements by his mother and him have impressed me this week. It's a unique and unfortunate position for them.

    Bush on the other hand will certainly hope that this is a way to put the whole mess behind him with a simple press conference, while his school and the current players will be dealing with it for a long, long time. What a legacy to leave behind.

    I agree with the vacated award. Leave it there so that the next generation of sports fans ask the question "What happened?" It beats the heck out of asterisks.
    First, I agree that the Heisman Trust made the right decision in simply vacating the award.

    Second, I agree that Vince Young's statement was commendable for being both honest and honorable.

    But I maintain that Felicia Young's statement--which clearly conveys her feeling that Reggie Bush should be allowed to continue enjoying all the benefits of being a Heisman Trophy winner, even though we now know that he violated rules that would have rendered him ineligible to play and unqualified (based on the "with integrity" criterion) for the Heisman Trophy, while those who seek to hold Bush accountable for cheating should be scorned for "trying to tear [him] down"--is at best unfortunate and misguided. Here we have a parent, from whom young fans of her son should be able to receive the kind of guidance that counsels a sense of responsibility, telling the cheater to "keep your head up," while castigating the people who merely want to assure that everyone competes fairly in accordance with the rules. What kind of distorted message does that send?

    If she had simply said something like "we aren't interested in receiving the honor of this award as a result of the original recipient's forfeiture, and we feel badly for Reggie," I think that would have been fine. But going beyond that to defend and affirmatively encourage the person who did not legitimately earn the award, while casting aspersions on those who criticize Bush because they believe that, given what we now know about the previously undisclosed improprieties, he was awarded the trophy undeservedly, is IMO not just wrong, but harmful.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    Tex - I don't agree with lots of your football related posts (particularly the BSU/VaTech thread recently) but I absolutely agree that both Vince Young and his mother have reacted quite honorably and honestly throughout this process.
    Thanks. My Boise takes are admittedly a bit over the top. You know when there is just something that GETS you? I understand why they are admired, but... they just get to me.

    I am fine with the vacated award. Stray, I think you are reading way too much into Felicia Young's statement, but we'll agree to disagree there.

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