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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Orange County, NC

    Trust to take Bush’s Heisman


  2. #2

    OJ is not worried and the real issue with USC

    OJ has bigger problems and his issues, of which we are aware, had nothing to do with his college football performance.

    Evidently USC regarded the NCAA investigation as adversarial which is not how the NCAA looks at it.

    “A lot of times with attorneys, the NCAA administrative process is backwards...because they’re out to prove their client didn’t do anything wrong or to make the NCAA prove that they did,” Morgan said. “Well, with the NCAA, that’s just not how it works. Schools have an obligation as NCAA members to disclose all violations, to cooperate in any investigations and to be fully forthcoming.”

    http://www.latimesmagazine.com/2010/...l-of-troy.html

    SoCal

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    This is interesting. They have also said they will just not award a Heisman for 2005. Ummmm... OK. Seems like it would be really easy to do so, and actually get it right.

    How is this different than Vanessa Williams not fulfilling her duties as Ms. America and having the runner up step in. Of course I am biased, and I hope Vince and UT do absolutely ZERO to lobby for this other than to say, "sure it would be great if they decided to award it to VY."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lynchburg, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    This is interesting. They have also said they will just not award a Heisman for 2005. Ummmm... OK. Seems like it would be really easy to do so, and actually get it right.

    How is this different than Vanessa Williams not fulfilling her duties as Ms. America and having the runner up step in. Of course I am biased, and I hope Vince and UT do absolutely ZERO to lobby for this other than to say, "sure it would be great if they decided to award it to VY."
    I say, why not. Vince Young already has the NFL career of a former Heisman Trophy winning QB.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    This is interesting. They have also said they will just not award a Heisman for 2005. Ummmm... OK. Seems like it would be really easy to do so, and actually get it right.

    How is this different than Vanessa Williams not fulfilling her duties as Ms. America and having the runner up step in. Of course I am biased, and I hope Vince and UT do absolutely ZERO to lobby for this other than to say, "sure it would be great if they decided to award it to VY."
    I agree here. Not redistributing the award will just further the sense that it really was Bush who won that year and that rescinding the award was just a formality. When people look and see a blank line on the list of winners, they'll still automatically remember, "Oh yeah, that was the year Bush won it."

    I'm still not sure how I feel about whether or not the award should be rescinded in the first place, but I think that if you're going to do it, you might as well make sure somebody who deserves it, gets it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    York, PA
    I don't think they should take it away from Bush. He set the all-time record for the number of votes received. So we're just to forget about his great season? It's not like his violations were things that positively affected his on-field performance or gave him a competitive advantage. Had he taken PED's, I would feel differently.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by lmb View Post
    I don't think they should take it away from Bush. He set the all-time record for the number of votes received. So we're just to forget about his great season? It's not like his violations were things that positively affected his on-field performance or gave him a competitive advantage. Had he taken PED's, I would feel differently.
    Actually -- I tend to agree with this generally. My point was that since they **ARE** taking it away...

    I think that there may be some eligibility requirement in who the Heisman voters are allowed to vote for. (e.g. if a player is the clear frontrunner, then is arrested and suspended for remainder of season, can't vote for him). I am not sure that is true, but have heard more than one mention that criterium. Whether that works retroactively, I'm not sure.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    If the Bush's Heisman is actually vacated, that is WONDERFUL for college athletics, and especially the critical -- and far too frequently ignored -- ethical and character component of intercollegiate sports. With regard to, "He set the all-time record for the number of votes received. So we're just to forget about his great season? It's not like his violations were things that positively affected his on-field performance or gave him a competitive advantage," I must respectfully -- but vehemently -- disagree. The FACT is Bush was not a legitimate college athlete, as documented by the NCAA’s findings that indicated illicit conduct. Therefore, regardless of his on-field performance, he is ineligible for any honors that accrue ONLY to appropriately approved and fully sanctioned student-athletes.

  9. #9

    Take It Away

    Quote Originally Posted by lmb View Post
    I don't think they should take it away from Bush. He set the all-time record for the number of votes received. So we're just to forget about his great season? It's not like his violations were things that positively affected his on-field performance or gave him a competitive advantage. Had he taken PED's, I would feel differently.
    He was a pro playing college football. Right now the ones being punished are the current USC players. He should have it taken away. I certainly don't feel sorry for him at all.

    SoCal

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    He was a pro playing college football. Right now the ones being punished are the current USC players. He should have it taken away. I certainly don't feel sorry for him at all.l
    Absolutely right; the kids we should have sympathy for are the USC players who were always within NCAA and University -- not to mention statutory -- rules, and are now precluded from post-season play (among other sanctions). I respectfully suggest it would require an usually selfish individual to hurt his teammates in such a callous manner.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    I wonder if precedents about team and individual punishments are being watched nervously in Lexington, KY these days?

  12. #12
    Not so fast! Looks like the Trust has not made up their minds.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angele...ory?id=5542215

    The Heisman Trophy Trust is denying a Yahoo! Sports report that the trust is expected to strip former USC running back Reggie Bush of his 2005 Heisman Trophy and leave the award vacant.

    "I can tell you the Heisman Trophy Trust has made no decision regarding the Reggie Bush situation," Robert Whalen, executive director of the Heisman Trophy Trust, told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

    Two sources close to the trust told Yahoo! Sports that the organization is completing its investigation and will agree with the NCAA's finding that Bush accepted improper benefits while at USC and was ineligible during the 2005 season, according to the report. The NCAA cited USC for "lack of institutional control" and handed the Trojans four years' probation, a two-year bowl ban and a reduction in football scholarships.

    The president of the Heisman Trophy Trust, William J. Dockery, reiterated that the reports were inaccurate.

    "The status of the USC/Bush matter remains unchanged. Any reports to the contrary are inaccurate," Dockery said.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Here is a question--

    Lets say Player X played the entire regular season and put up huge numbers making X a shoe-in for the Heisman. Then -- after the Heisman votes have been entered but before the results have been announced -- it is discovered that Player X was inelligible all semester long. He was taking huge payments from boosters and agents and his entire season has been nullified by the NCAA.

    What should the Heisman folks do? I think it would be clear that they would invalidate all votes for that player. No way they would award X the trophy under those circumstances. I would imagine they would either re-vote (which may be logistically impossible) or just award the trophy to the guy who had the second most number of votes that year.

    Right? Doesn't that make sense? Doesn't that seem like what they would do?

    Well, I don't see this case as being all that different. The fact that Bush's cheating was revealed after he got the trophy does not matter all that much to me. He was ineligible to receive the award and they take it away. It is simple.

    --Jason "and yes, I do think they should give it to Vince Young, who was easily the #2 vote-getter ahead of Matt Leinart" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    York, PA
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    He was a pro playing college football. Right now the ones being punished are the current USC players. He should have it taken away. I certainly don't feel sorry for him at all.

    SoCal
    I don't feel sorry for him either. Not at all. I just feel that the horse is already way out of the barn on this thing. Yes, there will be some embarassment, and yes, history books will make no mention of him. But among his contemporaries, everyone knows the truth.

    I agree with Jason that they wouldn't have awarded the Heisman to him if they had discovered this immediately before the presentation. Nor should they have. But years have passed.

    It almost seems like a trivial punishment to me - not harsh enough. Maybe it's the only thing that can be done to him under the current rules. If so, the rules should be changed. I keep thinking, "Why can't Bush, and Carroll for that matter, be fined or asked to cover fines that USC must pay?". The current sitauation totally stinks! USC and current athletes who had no part in it are punished severely while Bush skates and Carroll takes an NFL head coaching job. Taking his trophy seems piddly in comparison.

    As an aside, the main reason I have been a Duke fan for 25 years, despite having no connection to the university, is because Coach K teaches and upholds the values that are present in good citizens. So I do understand the Athletic Club's desire for their award to be given to a person who represents integrity and aligns himself with NCAA rules. I guess I'm just left saying, "So what?".

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Jason,

    I agree, presuming the Committee's and/or the Foundation's policies and bylaws do not require some defined mathematical plurality to award the Heisman, which Young likely did not have achieve due to all the Bush votes. If their regulations require a plurality, then (IMHO) a re-vote would be the best option (which Young would probably -- and deservedly -- win).

    My only real concern is that an illicit, dishonorable player (X or Bush, as you see fit) not be honored for his corrupt, duplicitous and perhaps illegal conduct.

    Warm regards.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    the simple fact is, he shouldn't have been on the field to DO those things....and if he's not on the field, Vince takes that trophy home..


    you can't just say, well, he did all that, and he's not there anymore, so go ahead and let him have it...


  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by 4decadedukie View Post
    ... My only real concern is that an illicit, dishonorable player (X or Bush, as you see fit) not be honored for his corrupt, duplicitous and perhaps illegal conduct. ...
    As an old-timer college football fan who still clings stubbornly to those antiquated, idealistic notions of good sportsmanship and fair play, I agree that the Heisman Trust should require Bush to forfeit his trophy. Indeed, the "mission statement" of the Heisman Trust would seem to mandate such action:

    "The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity. Winners epitomize great ability combined with diligence, perseverance, and hard work. The Heisman Trophy Trust ensures the continuation and integrity of this award."

    The Heisman Trust cannot, IMO, be faithful to its mission of recognizing the player whose performance "best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity" if the recipient knowingly violated the most fundamental rule of amateur sport by accepting money and equivalent rewards while playing in college. While I don't entirely agree that it's unfair to visit some penalties on the current players and coaches and fans of USC, considering the benefits that the program reaped from Bush's improper participation which cannot now be rescinded, I certainly believe it would be reprehensible for Bush himself to not only escape with impunity, but continue to enjoy the exalted status of a Heisman Trophy winner.

    Even more troubling to me in a broader sense, however, is the reaction of Vince Young's mother, who was quoted in the NYT article as having said, in response to a question about whether the trophy should now be awarded to her son:

    "We're not interested in having no honor and no glory out of somebody else they are trying to tear down, no," Felicia Young said, according to the report. "I say to Reggie Bush today 'You keep your head up.' "

    Here, in a nutshell, is an illustration of what I perceive as very serious problem that is leading to much ugliness: The complete absence of any sense of shame. If parents of "role models" don't discourage young people from engaging in selfish and dishonest behavior that violates the rules, but instead criticize those who try to enforce the rules for the purpose of promoting fairness and justice and a sense of responsibility, then what message does that send to other young people?

    Shame on the Heisman Trust if they don't revoke the award to Reggie Bush. Moreover, shame on Reggie Bush for not having the common decency to return the award as a matter of personal conscience. And most of all, shame on Felicia Young for telling the world that it doesn't matter whether someone's conduct is right or wrong--just don't let anyone take away what you've got, even if you didn't comply with the rules in getting it.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    York, PA
    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Gator View Post
    Moreover, shame on Reggie Bush for not having the common decency to return the award as a matter of personal conscience.

    That would have been the best resolution in this case. You're right. Too bad it didn't happen that way.

    Just curious, does anyone know what Bush's reaction to this whole thing has been? Does he claim innocence or does he admit fault and have some sense of guilt?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Here is a wrinkle to consider--

    If voters could not have voted for Bush, it is quite likely many would have given their votes to Matt Leinart instead. I am not sure it would have been enough to beat VY, but recall that USC was a true offensive juggernaut that year and there was strong sentiment to reward them for their awesome on-field performance. Young and Texas were great, but were considered underdogs in the national title game, IIRC.

    Had there been no Bush vote, I think the vote between VY and Leinart would have been quite close and I would not have been surprised to see it go to Leinart.

    Now, if we had a re-vote today, I am sure VY would win going away. He has had a far better pro career than Leinart (which should not influence voters, but it would) and there is strong anti-USC sentiment because of the Bush fiasco.

    Anyway, like I said earlier, I think awarding it to VY is appropriate and makes sense. I just throw this post out there to say that maybe he would not have won it if Bush had not been an option for voters.

    --Jason "life is so much easier if you don't cheat and get caught " Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Connersville, IN
    I don't agree if they do take it away

    Reggie's on the field performance was not affected by payments he received off the field. There's no doubt he was the best player in college football that year

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