Reactions to the James/Bosh/Wade deal

[Lord Ash]

I wish we did not have the Duke basketball (and at meaningful times, other Duke sports) board cluttered with completely-unrelated-to-Duke posts regarding the NBA. If we're talking substance about Duke players and the draft or how Duke grads are doing in the NBA those posts are germane. But talking about LeBron...or other players with no nexus to Duke doesn't belong here. Some other boards require it to be placed elsewhere in their forums. This board, the best of the Duke basketball boards, should also.

James, Bosh, and Wade all play for Coach K on the US Olympic team, a team that has won championships recently because of a somehow-familiar de-emphasis on individual stars and more focus on team play, to the point that Kobe himself was saying "Let me define my role by my DEFENSE (of all things!)" I believe that makes it at least relevant enough of a national, big-interest, same sport, "what-is-true-success-in-basketball?" story to discuss on a Duke basketball forum

[toooskies]

The super-team in Miami is quite interesting. Remember when Jon Scheyer decided not to play at Illinois, even though he grew up there and was coached by the brother of Illinois' head coach? Honestly, the situation played out very much like many college recruitments do. It's very strange how different the perspective becomes when you can treat pro basketball so very differently.

Being a former Clevelander, I both am upset about Lebron's departure for the city and also understand him leaving. One influencing factor in me choosing Duke for my higher education is that I wanted to see a team I root for win a championship-- and Duke obliged in 2001 at the end of my Freshman year. I've lived in Durham ever since, although I still root for the Cleveland teams.

The thing that upsets people most, really, is that individuals/consumers/fans, despite making it possible for athletes to play a game professionally, have exactly zero negotiating power in the final equation. There's nothing anyone could do except hold up posters imploring LBJ to stay. Fans are once again disposable to the players on the court, because there will always be new fans in a new place.

And at the end of the day, to do that means Lebron wasn't really a Northeast Ohioan like everyone in Cleveland presumed he was. Clevelanders built up a myth that he was like everyone still there. He got a tattoo of the word "Loyalty". He gave no indication he wasn't completely comfortable and happy there, except his teams kept losing in the playoffs (although the losses could all be traced back to his own poor play).

Other than catching lightning in a bottle and magically growing a second banana, Cleveland couldn't have done anything better. Remember, they didn't give up a single player of consequence to acquire their current best players (Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, Shaq). They haven't had a single draft pick pan out-- which is an organizational problem, but they only had one top 10 pick since Lebron, so that's not a great tragedy. They haven't been able to sign a free agent of any value because Lebron wouldn't say whether he'd be around for their entire contract.

Finally, Cleveland had prepared itself to lose out to Lebron's other interests. Be the superstar in Chicago, since he rooted for the Bulls as a kid? Sure. Try to be the "global icon" from New York (even the Nets)? Sure. Jump to LA, or demand to play in Dallas? Possible but unlikely. Cleveland thought that Lebron's aspirations were to accomplish something; to achieve something; to grow his individual star, because he has always embraced that individual star.

No-- he believes he wasn't getting what he was deserving in Cleveland, which was automatic championships for being the best player in the league. He didn't believe in himself enough to make something worthwhile in those other cities. Don't disguise this as "embracing team play", because he signed up in Miami when he only knew 3 of his future teammates. (And while they're friends, it's hard to say that they're closer than the entourage he's had since high school-- these aren't his inner circle buddies.) He knew he wasn't good enough, or wasn't willing to work hard enough, to be the Cleveland's Savior, even with everyone else giving their best effort.

But then again, those are pretty big shoes, even for a basketball player.

[Indoor66]

The super-team in Miami is quite interesting. Remember when Jon Scheyer decided not to play at Illinois, even though he grew up there and was coached by the brother of Illinois' head coach? Honestly, the situation played out very much like many college recruitments do. It's very strange how different the perspective becomes when you can treat pro basketball so very differently.

Being a former Clevelander, I both am upset about Lebron's departure for the city and also understand him leaving. One influencing factor in me choosing Duke for my higher education is that I wanted to see a team I root for win a championship-- and Duke obliged in 2001 at the end of my Freshman year. I've lived in Durham ever since, although I still root for the Cleveland teams.

The thing that upsets people most, really, is that individuals/consumers/fans, despite making it possible for athletes to play a game professionally, have exactly zero negotiating power in the final equation. There's nothing anyone could do except hold up posters imploring LBJ to stay. Fans are once again disposable to the players on the court, because there will always be new fans in a new place.

And at the end of the day, to do that means Lebron wasn't really a Northeast Ohioan like everyone in Cleveland presumed he was. Clevelanders built up a myth that he was like everyone still there. He got a tattoo of the word "Loyalty". He gave no indication he wasn't completely comfortable and happy there, except his teams kept losing in the playoffs (although the losses could all be traced back to his own poor play).

Other than catching lightning in a bottle and magically growing a second banana, Cleveland couldn't have done anything better. Remember, they didn't give up a single player of consequence to acquire their current best players (Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, Shaq). They haven't had a single draft pick pan out-- which is an organizational problem, but they only had one top 10 pick since Lebron, so that's not a great tragedy. They haven't been able to sign a free agent of any value because Lebron wouldn't say whether he'd be around for their entire contract.

Finally, Cleveland had prepared itself to lose out to Lebron's other interests. Be the superstar in Chicago, since he rooted for the Bulls as a kid? Sure. Try to be the "global icon" from New York (even the Nets)? Sure. Jump to LA, or demand to play in Dallas? Possible but unlikely. Cleveland thought that Lebron's aspirations were to accomplish something; to achieve something; to grow his individual star, because he has always embraced that individual star.

No-- he believes he wasn't getting what he was deserving in Cleveland, which was automatic championships for being the best player in the league. He didn't believe in himself enough to make something worthwhile in those other cities. Don't disguise this as "embracing team play", because he signed up in Miami when he only knew 3 of his future teammates. (And while they're friends, it's hard to say that they're closer than the entourage he's had since high school-- these aren't his inner circle buddies.) He knew he wasn't good enough, or wasn't willing to work hard enough, to be the Cleveland's Savior, even with everyone else giving their best effort.

But then again, those are pretty big shoes, even for a basketball player.

It is also a huge responsibility to lay on one player - one player who is dependent on the decisions of many third parties.

[DevilHorns]

I haven't heard that Lebron liked Coach Brown. From all the internet stories I've read it seemed clear that they never had a good relationship.

I still don't understand the visceral reaction people now have against Lebron. Is it because no player of this caliber ever made a choice like this (usually the dominoes fall by which team offers the biggest pay-out... this is the first big-time free agent move that I can recall where the superstar player truly makes the "decision")? Or simply because he aired "the Decision"? If people are still irritated about the latter, they need to relax a bit. I think it was done in poor taste, sure, but this by no means should be a reason to vilify him.

Cleveland says that Lebron has no loyalty. Lebron was the Cavs. Sure he had the best season for the past two years, but that was because of him! Let's see how many games the Cavs win next year. I'm guessing much less than the 55-game no-Jordan Bulls team.

I wonder what the Cavs attendance was in the pre-Lebron era, and I wonder what it will be next year? Gilbert can be as mad as he wants because he knows that his franchise is worth half of what it was a month ago. And I think Cleveland is showing its true colors about this. Ritual burnings of his jersey posted on youtube, selling Quitness beer, erasing all the memories in a rash move like a scorned ex-GF.

[Memphis Devil]

Wait, how is it Dwayne Wade's team? Because he was there first? Did you call this years Duke team "Jon Scheyer's" team and say that Nolan and Kyle were just hangers-on because they came afterwards? A team is, almost by definition, everyones team, unless there is a real flaw in how it works.

No one is saying that James didn't use the ESPN thing to elevate himself... although honestly I don't think it elevated him much... he is pretty much already in the stratosphere, and an hour show isn't really much to add to that.

As for a cop out, I just don't see it. I don't get how wanting to play with good teammates and friends and winning titles while accepting a lower-than-max contract is the WRONG thing to do, but staying in Cleveland with a management you don't totally trust to enable you to win a title while pursuing individual glory is the RIGHT thing to do. I don't get it.

Make no mistake about it, Miami is Dwayne Wade's team and has been since he stepped onto the floor for the first time and has clearly been the best player ever since. This year's Duke team was pretty widely considered Kyle's team as he was viewed as the best player with the most NBA potential. As it turned out, however, this year's Duke team was just that...a team.

As far as going to Miami being a cop out, what you describe as a desire to place more emphasis on the team and play with other great players/great friends, I see as Lebron admitting that he's not quite the man his "King" moniker has led everyone to believe. I don't fault him for not staying in Cleveland at all. In fact, I felt he should/would end up in either Chicago or New Jersey.

Finally, in my opinion, the NBA and it's players are all about individual glory.

[SmartDevil]

Originally Posted by SmartDevil
I wish we did not have the Duke basketball (and at meaningful times, other Duke sports) board cluttered with completely-unrelated-to-Duke posts regarding the NBA. If we're talking substance about Duke players and the draft or how Duke grads are doing in the NBA those posts are germane. But talking about LeBron...or other players with no nexus to Duke doesn't belong here. Some other boards require it to be placed elsewhere in their forums. This board, the best of the Duke basketball boards, should also.

Lord Ash wrote:
James, Bosh, and Wade all play for Coach K on the US Olympic team, a team that has won championships recently because of a somehow-familiar de-emphasis on individual stars and more focus on team play, to the point that Kobe himself was saying "Let me define my role by my DEFENSE (of all things!)" I believe that makes it at least relevant enough of a national, big-interest, same sport, "what-is-true-success-in-basketball?" story to discuss on a Duke basketball forum
Last edited by Lord Ash; Today at 12:18 AM.

To: Lord Ash

I see your point but we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. I don't think the nexus is at all strong--your case is a real stretch. And I don't think non-germane NBA stuff belongs in the chief Duke basketball forum. However, I'll grant you that there is some tiny, tiny, tiny connection at least re: Kobe--more of a connection certainly than such NBA topics as trades or playoff chances or NBA thuggery, etc. with no connection whatsoever to Duke which sometimes shows up here.

I hope the mods will either move posts without a real connection to Duke basketball or create a different forum for them.

[Poincaré]

Also recall that the Cleveland Cavaliers profited ENORMOUSLY from Lebron's time in Cleveland. They were hansomely rewarded with some of the best basketball Cleveland has ever seen. This attitude is actually the one that I disagree with the most. I would have absolutely LOVE, LOVE, LOVED it if the Hawks had has the opportunity to cater to Lebron for 7 seasons, no matter how it ended. I would not have minded treating him as a prima donna nor given in to his every whim. Sometimes you have to do that to keep someone happy. I think Cleveland made the mistake of trying to "win now" starting in 2005 rather than building a young team to surround Lebron with, but that is just as much the fault of the Cavs brass as it is Lebron's. Also, if they felt that Brown was really the wrong man for the job, they should have fired him with the logic that Lebron will leave if the team doesn't win big and Brown's not going to win big so why care what Lebron thinks of him?

What I would have given up to allow the Hawks the opportunity to make the same mistakes (and you KNOW the Hawks would have messed up with Lebron)! I understand why Clevelanders are hurt, but Lebron is a professional athlete . . . a coveted asset for any basketball franchise . . . who felt like he got a better offer somewhere else. Why would he meet with Izzo if he really didn't have any interest in being back in Cleveland? That's a waste of everyone's time. It would have been nice if he had considered how Clevelanders would feel, but he didn't have any obligation to and it wouldn't have eased their pain much, anyway. People would probably just call him a phony for saying things like "I will always call Cleveland home but it's time for me to try something new."

Great points, except I wasn't criticizing his decision to leave. I was criticizing how he left. On that point, we seem to be in agreement. Also, LeBron did not give profit to the Cavs out of the kindness of his heart. The interests of the Cavs and LeBron were aligned on that front. Both wanted to win and winning usually results in more money, fame, and stature for both parties. The Cavs always paid him the most amount of money that they could under the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by LeBron's union. To say that the Cavs should be thankful to him for making them profitable is laughable. The Cavs have paid the luxury tax to keep LeBron happy. I am willing to venture that they were not nearly in the black as the Clippers.

You and I are also in agreement that the Cavs bear a lot of blame (perhaps most?) for WHY LeBron left. Again, my issue is with HOW he left. They did not deserve to be humiliated on national television like this. If you are experiencing difficulty trying to feel sympathy for Dan Gilbert, that's fine. But I hope that you can understand how the Cleveland fans did not deserve to be strung along and then have their hopes crushed like this on national TV.

[COYS]

Great points, except I wasn't criticizing his decision to leave. I was criticizing how he left. On that point, we seem to be in agreement. Also, LeBron did not give profit to the Cavs out of the kindness of his heart. The interests of the Cavs and LeBron were aligned on that front. Both wanted to win and winning usually results in more money, fame, and stature for both parties. The Cavs always paid him the most amount of money that they could under the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by LeBron's union. To say that the Cavs should be thankful to him for making them profitable is laughable. The Cavs have paid the luxury tax to keep LeBron happy. I am willing to venture that they were not nearly in the black as the Clippers.

You and I are also in agreement that the Cavs bear a lot of blame (perhaps most?) for WHY LeBron left. Again, my issue is with HOW he left. They did not deserve to be humiliated on national television like this. If you are experiencing difficulty trying to feel sympathy for Dan Gilbert, that's fine. But I hope that you can understand how the Cleveland fans did not deserve to be strung along and then have their hopes crushed like this on national TV.

I certainly see your point and do not mean to demean how much Clevelanders may have been hurt by "The Decision." I still maintain, though, that I would take that pain in a heartbeat if it meant Lebron had done the same thing to the Hawks =). And yes, my attitude is probably the result of me being a Hawks fan and therefore generally jealous of most other NBA franchises. =)

[CDu]

As far as going to Miami being a cop out, what you describe as a desire to place more emphasis on the team and play with other great players/great friends, I see as Lebron admitting that he's not quite the man his "King" moniker has led everyone to believe. I don't fault him for not staying in Cleveland at all. In fact, I felt he should/would end up in either Chicago or New Jersey.

I think think this sums it up. His individual legacy as "The King" takes a hit, as he'll be considered a follower rather than a leader. If anything, I think the decisions boost the legacy of Dwyane Wade, who convinced James and Bosh to follow him to Miami. So in that sense, I agree that New Jersey or Chicago made the most sense (which is slightly ironic in Chicago's case, because Chicago had a better team in place at the time).

But aside from individual legacy issues (which may or may not remain important to James), the only fault for James was in how he handled the decision. His ego required making a spectacle of the decision, and I think he owed it to his previous employer to show them a little more respect than to simply leave them hanging in the wind on national television. He didn't owe anything to Cleveland regarding staying there, but it showed a lack of class and professionalism to not let them know well in advance of his special. Instead of being about class, it was about "the show."

Does it make him a terrible person? No. Just immature, egotistical, and unprofessional. There are certainly worse things that can be said of someone though. And I'm sure that description fits many pro athletes. He just made the mistake of putting it on display for the world to see.

[JasonEvans]

Originally Posted by SmartDevil
I wish we did not have the Duke basketball (and at meaningful times, other Duke sports) board cluttered with completely-unrelated-to-Duke posts regarding the NBA. If we're talking substance about Duke players and the draft or how Duke grads are doing in the NBA those posts are germane. But talking about LeBron...or other players with no nexus to Duke doesn't belong here. Some other boards require it to be placed elsewhere in their forums. This board, the best of the Duke basketball boards, should also.






To: Lord Ash

I see your point but we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. I don't think the nexus is at all strong--your case is a real stretch. And I don't think non-germane NBA stuff belongs in the chief Duke basketball forum. However, I'll grant you that there is some tiny, tiny, tiny connection at least re: Kobe--more of a connection certainly than such NBA topics as trades or playoff chances or NBA thuggery, etc. with no connection whatsoever to Duke which sometimes shows up here.

I hope the mods will either move posts without a real connection to Duke basketball or create a different forum for them.

I hope you enjoy the irony in complaining about the board having non-Duke content and then commenting on the comment and adding to the discussion in the very same thread. That some pretty funny stuff, my friend.

The policy of the DBR boards has always been that content that was discussed in the DBR headlines or content that related in any way to college basketball was "on-topic." Over time, virtually all NBA discussion has been deemed on-topic as it often relates to former Duke players in the NBA or former ACC players.

Putting aside the fact that the DBR headlines page talked about NBA free agency several times, making it automatically "on-topic," I think an easy case can be made that NBA free agency is a big deal for former Duke players. The current discussions of NBA free agency have all delved into where Boozer, Redick, Duhon, and Scheyer might end up playing and who their teammates would be. Clearly, a thread about Lebron and his Miami trio could relate to how they will challenge Boozer's Chicago team or JJ and Duhon's Orlando team as well as how Scheyer might fit in as one of their teammates. This relationship holds true of almost any NBA discussion.

There are many mods involved with the DBR boards -- close to 20 of us, I think. It is hard to get us to unanimously agree on much of anything. I would submit that it is very likely we all would agree that NBA conversation belongs firmly on the Main Page of the bulletin boards... especially in the middle of the college basketball off-season when there is just not that much to discuss about college hoops.

A simple suggestion for you -- if you see a thread with a topic that does not interest you, skip it. Most threads are pretty clearly marked.

--Jason "I hope that helped" Evans

[beach rev]

An interesting take from S.I.'s Joe Posnanski (like me, a native Clevelander). It won't change any of the perspectives on this board, but it does give you some insight.
http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/07/2...rin/?eref=sihp