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  1. #1
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    Lost - Time to Speculate (Spoilers)

    So it has been a week now, and since we have almost a year for new episodes, I'm feeling Lost withdrawal. The key question to me is this:

    In the flash forward we saw with Jack, is his dad still alive or not?

    Personally, I think the answer is yes. He had his dad's prescription card. He talked about his dad being more drunk than he was. If true, then this means that the Dharma Initiative is all about either time travel or an alternate universe. To me, the interesting thing about the flash forward was the conversation with Kate at the end. Jack says "I close my eyes and pray I can get back." Kate says, "This is not going to change." Jack says he is "tired of lying," and while crying says, "We made a mistake." Then Kate leaves saying, "I have to go, he's going to be wondering where I am."

    So is Jack's dad alive in the "future?" That answer drives pretty much everything. What is Jack lying about? Who is Kate having to get back to? Who was in the casket (I agree with those that say Ben - no way is it Sawyer - Kate would have gone to that funeral, for sure).

    February...is a long ways off.

  2. #2
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    So it has been a week now, and since we have almost a year for new episodes, I'm feeling Lost withdrawal. The key question to me is this:

    In the flash forward we saw with Jack, is his dad still alive or not?

    Personally, I think the answer is yes. He had his dad's prescription card. He talked about his dad being more drunk than he was. If true, then this means that the Dharma Initiative is all about either time travel or an alternate universe. To me, the interesting thing about the flash forward was the conversation with Kate at the end. Jack says "I close my eyes and pray I can get back." Kate says, "This is not going to change." Jack says he is "tired of lying," and while crying says, "We made a mistake." Then Kate leaves saying, "I have to go, he's going to be wondering where I am."

    So is Jack's dad alive in the "future?" That answer drives pretty much everything. What is Jack lying about? Who is Kate having to get back to? Who was in the casket (I agree with those that say Ben - no way is it Sawyer - Kate would have gone to that funeral, for sure).

    February...is a long ways off.
    Alternate theory: Future Jack is a pill-popping nutjob. Not as flashy, but fully supported by the facts.

  3. #3
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    So is Jack's dad alive in the "future?" That answer drives pretty much everything.
    No, I'm afraid that question actually prevents you from exploring the truly pressing questions. Jack's dad is dead, and I really believe you're doing yourself a disservice by continuing to focus on this tidbit.

    I'll say this: the moment we find out Jack's dad is actually alive is the moment I stop watching LOST.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    No, I'm afraid that question actually prevents you from exploring the truly pressing questions. Jack's dad is dead, and I really believe you're doing yourself a disservice by continuing to focus on this tidbit.

    I'll say this: the moment we find out Jack's dad is actually alive is the moment I stop watching LOST.
    Jack was drunk and popping massive painkilling pills. He was off his rocker and did not realize his father was dead. The comment about his dad was just a trick by the writers to make us think Christian Sheppard was still alive and think that this was a flashback, not a flash-forward.

    Christian lost his medical license after he operated on a woman while being drunk. In the flash-forward, even if Christian was still alive, he would not be at the hospital.

    Also worth noting, Jack says, "bring my father down here." Maybe he meant, bring him down here from heaven?

    Bottom line , Christian is not alive in the future.

    --Jason "Ben in the coffin-- for sure!" Evans

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    So it has been a week now, and since we have almost a year for new episodes, I'm feeling Lost withdrawal. The key question to me is this:

    In the flash forward we saw with Jack, is his dad still alive or not?
    I really hope that the answer is "no." The writers/producers have been clear on more than one occasion that: 1) when people die in Lost, they stay dead; and 2) Jack's dad is dead. To negate that with some sort of alternate universe/dimention/time travel hocus pocus would be really cheap, and below what we've come to expect. I prefer to think that Jack is mentally unstable and/or deluded in the future.

  6. #6
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    --Jason "Ben in the coffin-- for sure!" Evans

    I agree. I have a feeling that's going to be among the final questions answered on LOST, too.

  7. #7

    And, just so I know I'm not losing my mind...

    when we say flash forward, we really mean flash current. The whole island has been a huge flashBACK, with mini-flashfartherbacks. The bearded Jack was in present time, and not a look into the future. Right?

  8. #8
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by 365Duke View Post
    when we say flash forward, we really mean flash current. The whole island has been a huge flashBACK, with mini-flashfartherbacks. The bearded Jack was in present time, and not a look into the future. Right?
    No, I think the writers/producers intend for the "now" to be the main storyline (ie, on the island, Naomi was just killed by Locke, they contacted the boat, etc etc) and the flashforward taking the place of the flashbacks. Whether we continue to see flashforwards in place of flashbacks from now on, or a combination of both, or just flashbacks, remain to be seen. I'd be surprised, however, if that format were to change.

  9. #9

    ok

    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    No, I think the writers/producers intend for the "now" to be the main storyline (ie, on the island, Naomi was just killed by Locke, they contacted the boat, etc etc) and the flashforward taking the place of the flashbacks. Whether we continue to see flashforwards in place of flashbacks from now on, or a combination of both, or just flashbacks, remain to be seen. I'd be surprised, however, if that format were to change.
    I did not mean that the storyline would just continue from here on in the present, what I think is that the story will continue on the island. I think that Jack would not want to leave if he saw a foreshadowing of him being a drug user. I, at least get the impression that when we get flashbacks, that the actual character is thinking of that moment in the past when they show it. So, if Jack is seeing his future, why would he go with all the other warnings he has gotten. I just think it would make the most sense that Kate and Jack met last Wednesday, and that we have been there all along and we are just getting caught up on the story. Kinda like this is the end, but it will not make sense until we tell you all of the rest. Hey, they adjusted DST, can we just put February between July and August

  10. Quote Originally Posted by 365Duke View Post
    when we say flash forward, we really mean flash current. The whole island has been a huge flashBACK, with mini-flashfartherbacks. The bearded Jack was in present time, and not a look into the future. Right?
    Let's see if I can help: think of the pilot episode as beginning live on the day that it was first broadcast, and then screen time on the island following concurrently from the crash. The pilot episode was first broadcast on September 22, 2004, the same date that Oceanic Flight 815 disappeared somewhere in the South Pacific. Since then, about ninety days has passed on the island, making it somewhere around Christmas 2004 on the island. With a few notable exceptions (on-island flashbacks for Michael, Claire, and Juliet, a re-set episode for the Tailees), the flashbacks all occur prior to the plane crash.

    I don't buy into the theory that seems to have gained some traction among Lost theorists that the flashbacks are subjective to the character's point of view. Instead, I think what we see in the flashbacks is literally what happened in the past. Likewise, I'm of the opinion that Jack's flashforward episode is literally what will happen to Jack in the future. Some people seem to assume that it will all be flashforwards, along with a continuation of the post-crash island narrative, from this point forward, but the creators have been close-lipped about all this so far. That's just one possibility. We also don't know at this point if Jack's flashforward is where the series is going to end. They could easily carry the story forward from that point, if they want to.

  11. #11

    Jack-Sarah interaction

    What’s been eating at me is not Jack’s father, but Jack’s ex-wife, Sarah. After thinking about it for a long time, Jack’s brief interaction with her in the season finale seems like rather sound evidence that points to the time machine or time travel theory – that the island events were not part of the time continuum in the real world, and that in the real world no one noticed or was aware of any of the island events. I have no idea about “how” such a theory will be explained, but that’s just what I think that scene helped prove. I understand it is a big jump so please let me know if I have holes in my thinking or if this has already been explained away elsewhere. I hadn’t seen it mentioned yet on threads here or BTD, that being the Jack-Sarah scene, not the time travel theory.

    Basically, when Sarah met Jack in the hospital room in the flash forward, are we to assume that is the first interaction between them since Jack came back from the island? If yes, why would Sarah not ask any kind of question about where he’s been for the last however many months (or whatever amount of time it would have been that the Losties were on the island)? Is it because they pretty much have no relationship at that point? Ok, well if that is the case, then I feel bringing Sarah into the scene just because she was still listed as his emergency contact was rather forced and unnecessary. What were the writers trying to do then – simply to show her pregnant and have Jack ponder about how he still wishes they were together? I just think there has to be more there – I firmly believe that scene was their first interaction post-island (“post-island” for Jack only; in the time travel theory there wouldn’t be a “post-island” for Sarah in terms of the passage of time).

    Now I realize that the pregnancy implies the passage of several months of time which potentially kills the time travel theory and I need to think about what this detail means. But again, I don’t recall Jack making any kind of comment to the effect of “congratulations on your baby” – which would be in character for him. And really, wouldn’t anyone realistically make a comment about being happy upon seeing a woman you had a deep relationship with as pregnant? Even if you’re divorced from that woman? Furthermore, if the island events were part of real-world time, what would stop Jack from talking regretfully about the island with Sarah, too?

    Other potential holes I acknowledge could kill the time travel theory: Jack’s beard, the RAZR phone.

    Something really confusing - as an emergency contact, wouldn’t Sarah have been notified about the original Flight 815 plane crash? If she wasn’t notified, that leads me to believe 815 never crashed – which I know contradicts what Naomi first said (that they found the crash and all the bodies). I haven’t thought about this yet, but it’s really hurting my head to tie these types of ends together. I have no idea if this contradicts the time travel theory or not.

    Looking forward to people’s comments. To be brief, I’d just like to know two things: 1) can we definitively answer yes or no that Jack and Sarah are meeting for the first time post-island in that scene? 2) Does Sarah know about the island events?

  12. #12
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    Feb 2007
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    New York City

    Two Thought Provoking Links

    http://www.lostreview.com/2007/05/an...-abcs-lost.cfm

    http://forums.canadiancontent.net/mo...iscussion.html (scroll down to find the following

    GREAT GEDANKEN EXPERIMENT, A TALE OF TIME TRAVEL AND SCHRODINGER'S CAT by SD Wynn



    I strongly believe there is time travel involved in Lost. In interviews and the TV recap specials, the producers have made cryptic comments about the issue being not where they are but "when" they are or other snippets suggestive that time is an issue on the island. I am very intrigued by the two lengthy discussions I reference above.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by yum dukie View Post
    What’s been eating at me is not Jack’s father, but Jack’s ex-wife, Sarah. After thinking about it for a long time, Jack’s brief interaction with her in the season finale seems like rather sound evidence that points to the time machine or time travel theory – that the island events were not part of the time continuum in the real world, and that in the real world no one noticed or was aware of any of the island events. I have no idea about “how” such a theory will be explained, but that’s just what I think that scene helped prove. I understand it is a big jump so please let me know if I have holes in my thinking or if this has already been explained away elsewhere. I hadn’t seen it mentioned yet on threads here or BTD, that being the Jack-Sarah scene, not the time travel theory.

    Basically, when Sarah met Jack in the hospital room in the flash forward, are we to assume that is the first interaction between them since Jack came back from the island? If yes, why would Sarah not ask any kind of question about where he’s been for the last however many months (or whatever amount of time it would have been that the Losties were on the island)? Is it because they pretty much have no relationship at that point? Ok, well if that is the case, then I feel bringing Sarah into the scene just because she was still listed as his emergency contact was rather forced and unnecessary. What were the writers trying to do then – simply to show her pregnant and have Jack ponder about how he still wishes they were together? I just think there has to be more there – I firmly believe that scene was their first interaction post-island (“post-island” for Jack only; in the time travel theory there wouldn’t be a “post-island” for Sarah in terms of the passage of time).

    Now I realize that the pregnancy implies the passage of several months of time which potentially kills the time travel theory and I need to think about what this detail means. But again, I don’t recall Jack making any kind of comment to the effect of “congratulations on your baby” – which would be in character for him. And really, wouldn’t anyone realistically make a comment about being happy upon seeing a woman you had a deep relationship with as pregnant? Even if you’re divorced from that woman? Furthermore, if the island events were part of real-world time, what would stop Jack from talking regretfully about the island with Sarah, too?

    Other potential holes I acknowledge could kill the time travel theory: Jack’s beard, the RAZR phone.

    Something really confusing - as an emergency contact, wouldn’t Sarah have been notified about the original Flight 815 plane crash? If she wasn’t notified, that leads me to believe 815 never crashed – which I know contradicts what Naomi first said (that they found the crash and all the bodies). I haven’t thought about this yet, but it’s really hurting my head to tie these types of ends together. I have no idea if this contradicts the time travel theory or not.

    Looking forward to people’s comments. To be brief, I’d just like to know two things: 1) can we definitively answer yes or no that Jack and Sarah are meeting for the first time post-island in that scene? 2) Does Sarah know about the island events?
    I'm pretty sure that the flashforward of Jack's downfall into booze and drugs isn't an immediate event after returning to the outside world. I assume that Jack has been back for a few months, and has developed some form of depression or PTSD. He's seen the ex after he got back... but then not for awhile until she shows up at the hospital. She's still listed as his emergency contact from BEFORE the plane crash (he probably hadn't thought to change it... especially since he's not concerned for his own safety and hoping to get into another plane crash by flying all of the time).
    I think the flashforwards will work the same as the flashbacks... real events told from that character's point of view. The only departure from this seems to be Desmond's flashback post hatch explosion... which may not have been a flashback, but something else entirely (time travel, alternate reality, etc.). I just hope the creators figure out a way to end the show that is not as depressing as that flashforward foreshadows it to be.

  14. #14
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiablo View Post
    Let's see if I can help: think of the pilot episode as beginning live on the day that it was first broadcast, and then screen time on the island following concurrently from the crash. The pilot episode was first broadcast on September 22, 2004, the same date that Oceanic Flight 815 disappeared somewhere in the South Pacific. Since then, about ninety days has passed on the island, making it somewhere around Christmas 2004 on the island. With a few notable exceptions (on-island flashbacks for Michael, Claire, and Juliet, a re-set episode for the Tailees), the flashbacks all occur prior to the plane crash.

    I don't buy into the theory that seems to have gained some traction among Lost theorists that the flashbacks are subjective to the character's point of view. Instead, I think what we see in the flashbacks is literally what happened in the past.
    Well, "Dave" showed that wasn't necessarily the case. Hopefully that was an exception, rather than the rule. Generally speaking, though, I think you're right.

    Likewise, I'm of the opinion that Jack's flashforward episode is literally what will happen to Jack in the future. Some people seem to assume that it will all be flashforwards, along with a continuation of the post-crash island narrative, from this point forward, but the creators have been close-lipped about all this so far. That's just one possibility. We also don't know at this point if Jack's flashforward is where the series is going to end. They could easily carry the story forward from that point, if they want to.
    That's the interesting thing about the finale - it wasn't a cliffhanger so much as an intermission. Act I of LOST just ended - the story of how the passengers survived on the island and made contact with civilization. Act II starts next year, and we don't know yet what that story will be.

  15. #15
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    I'm on the side of time travel, at least in the way that Desmond got to travel ahead in time to save Charlie. I should number my guesses, since I've been wrong 5 times so far, but...

    I think Jack's father is alive, despite what the producers have said. Dad could be dead, and Jack could have just stolen his prescription pad, and the crack about the drunk father could just have reflected his drug-addled state. I don't think so, however, partly because the chief of surgery didn't look whacked out when Jack made the comment about his father. He didn't want the clerk to call his father not because his office has been closed for a couple of years but because he didn't want his father to know he was abusing oxycontin. Further, his ex-wife's concern was not that he was working too hard but whether or not he was still drinking. During their marriage, it wouldn't have been unusual for him to be driving at 2 am not because he was suicidal or drunk but because he was always at the hospital. She has left him, but the reasons seem different in this future.

    The bigger issue for me is Kate. Assuming this flashforward occurs in the first year or two after their return, she should be in prison. I can't easily imagine a scenario where she would be out on probation or parole so quickly after a murder, even if she is caring for a son.

    I'm thinking that their return allowed them to make a single change in their pasts, and that these decisions led to 815 never happening. Kind of like Desmond got to save Charlie several times. And in this future, Jack didn't turn in his father, and his father never left the hospital in disgrace and didn't die in Australia, and so Jack never went to pick him up. And Kate decided not to kill her (step)father and so isn't on the lam. Sawyer probably didn't have to scam that woman or kill the guy in Australia, and Locke probably didn't give up a kidney, etc (though there is a good chance that Locke never left the island). Not sure why that would be so bad for Jack, though I guess his not turning in his father would be a loss of his standards.

  16. #16
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    2 quick comments--

    I don't know why anyone would think the meeting in the hospital was the first for Jack and his wife since he got back to civillization. I saw nothing at all to indicate that. Jack's non-response to her pregnancy leads me to think that he knew already that she was preggers.

    I belive there were a couple times in the flash-forward parts of the episode where people talk about Jack being "a hero again" or something like that. I think these were clearly references to Jack being the hero of Flight 815. The way people treated him was as if they sorta understood he had been through something horrible. I think this is yet more evidence that the survivors of 815 are known.

    That said, I am firmly in the "something screwy is going on with time on the island" camp. I think several really screwy things are going on-- I am just not sure which are which.

    -Jason "as an aside, apparently the hot theory these days is that the guy in the coffin was Michael-- but I find that much harder to buy than it being Ben" Evans

  17. #17
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    "Returning to the Present"

    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post

    I'm thinking that their return allowed them to make a single change in their pasts, and that these decisions led to 815 never happening. Kind of like Desmond got to save Charlie several times. And in this future, Jack didn't turn in his father, and his father never left the hospital in disgrace and didn't die in Australia, and so Jack never went to pick him up. And Kate decided not to kill her (step)father and so isn't on the lam. Sawyer probably didn't have to scam that woman or kill the guy in Australia, and Locke probably didn't give up a kidney, etc (though there is a good chance that Locke never left the island). Not sure why that would be so bad for Jack, though I guess his not turning in his father would be a loss of his standards.
    johnb,

    I personally believe you are on the right track - I think the island exists in another time, which is why it can't be found. I think some sort of electromagnetic pulse from the island (caused by Desmond not pushing the button in time) caused the plane to go through a time warp and end up in the past. If you read the first of the links posted above, it describes in great detail how this may have worked. If that is the case, then when the losties "go back to the present", they may be going back to a time prior to the 815 flight which would allow them to change their own fate/destiny/future. The concept of time travel is so hard to fathom because of this changing of the past and the logical results of doing so - sometimes known as the grandfather paradox as described in the link above. I think there will be an explanation of how the losties traveled through time, what they had to do to get back and how they are able to change their own destiny by coming back in the past relative to the point at which they went back in time.

    When Charlie said, "guys where are we?" he should have said, "guys, when are we?"

  18. #18
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    Agreed about his seeing his ex wife--he wasn't at all surprised by her being pregnant, though I'm not sure why they'd call her while he was just getting some stitches and a burn wrap.

    I haven't read the web, but Michael-in-the-coffin does make some sense. He seemed to have few friends before 815, and no one on the Island would be likely to admire him after his behavior, and it was an African American neighborhood. Even Ben would be likely to have some followers, including Jack if Jack now believes he shouldn't have left. On the other hand, that would seem to make Michael a central character, when a more central character is his son. But people flock to the funerals of children, so Walt seems unlikely.

    As for whether 815 really occurred, I'm unconvinced. If 815 had crashed a year or two before, the chief of surgery would be likely to at least recognize a hero surgeon, and no one said why Jack was a hero. And what were they lying about? Seems most likely they are lying about their having lived in a parallel universe for a while.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    As for whether 815 really occurred, I'm unconvinced. If 815 had crashed a year or two before, the chief of surgery would be likely to at least recognize a hero surgeon, and no one said why Jack was a hero. And what were they lying about? Seems most likely they are lying about their having lived in a parallel universe for a while.
    The crash definitely happened. Otherwise, Jack and Kate wouldn't have those "golden ticket"s from Oceanic Airlines.

    I'm intrigued by your theory, JohnB, but I really hope it's not the case. It's way to "It's a Wonderful Life" for my tastes. Then again, at the moment I'm rejecting all alternate universe/timeline theories out of hand, so I'm a tough one to convince.

    The fundamental problem with assuming that Jack's dad is alive is that Christian Shepard's death is the *reason* that Jack went to Sydney in the first place. If Jack hadn't have turned in his father to the ethics board, Christian never would have lost his license and likely wouldn't have taken off to Sydney for his last hurrah and died. But more importantly, if Christian Shepard wouldn't have died, Jack Shepard never would have bought a round-trip ticket from LA to Sydney to retrieve his father's body, and thus would not have ended up on Lost Island to begin with. If you pick apart the links in the chain of causality, the whole thing falls apart.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiablo View Post
    The crash definitely happened. Otherwise, Jack and Kate wouldn't have those "golden ticket"s from Oceanic Airlines.

    I'm intrigued by your theory, JohnB, but I really hope it's not the case. It's way to "It's a Wonderful Life" for my tastes. Then again, at the moment I'm rejecting all alternate universe/timeline theories out of hand, so I'm a tough one to convince.

    The fundamental problem with assuming that Jack's dad is alive is that Christian Shepard's death is the *reason* that Jack went to Sydney in the first place. If Jack hadn't have turned in his father to the ethics board, Christian never would have lost his license and likely wouldn't have taken off to Sydney for his last hurrah and died. But more importantly, if Christian Shepard wouldn't have died, Jack Shepard never would have bought a round-trip ticket from LA to Sydney to retrieve his father's body, and thus would not have ended up on Lost Island to begin with. If you pick apart the links in the chain of causality, the whole thing falls apart.

    Agreed. I think, in general, there may be something to the whole "time is different on the island" theory, but I doubt it's nearly as far-fetched as some of the theories put forth in this thread. I think it's much simpler.

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