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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia

    Jerseys that should be retired

    I have frequently thought that there are several of superb Duke basketball players, principally from the pre-K era, whose documented performances merit retirement of their numbers with their jerseys elevated to Cameron's rafters. Therefore, this thread is a venue to nominate such individuals. I'll open with Steve Vacendak.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    JON SCHEYER...


    wait....nm
    1200. DDMF.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Wink Bob Verga

    Quote Originally Posted by 4decadedukie View Post
    I have frequently thought that there are several of superb Duke basketball players, principally from the pre-K era, whose documented performances merit retirement of their numbers with their jerseys elevated to Cameron's rafters. Therefore, this thread is a venue to nominate such individuals. I'll open with Steve Vacendak.
    The mystery is why Bob Verga's jersey has not been retired, inasmuch as he has met the stated requirements of being on the first or second A-A teams: 2nd team in 1966 and 1st team in 1967.

    sagegrouse

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Princeton, NJ

    Marin, Johnny D, Hurley for 3!

    Being the son of a T-66, I clearly have no memories of watching Verga play, but between the numbers and the stories I have heard, it seems impossible that Verga is not worthy of hanging from the rafters.

  5. #5

    verga

    This thread seems to come up every offseason.

    First, there are NO hard-and-fast criteria ... the guidelines are whatever Duke officials (with Coach K having the last say) want. When you look at the jerseys that have been retired you see 12 that were consensus first-team All-Americans and one (Jeff Mullins) that was not.

    Duke has had three consensus first-team All-Americans who have not had retired jerseys -- Elton Brand (1999), Chris Carrawell (2000) and Bob Verga (1967).

    Brand, of course, was national player of the year ... but he left after two years. I think if he ever came back and got his degree, that he would be honored.

    Carrawell and Verga would see to have the best case among the non-honored. In Verga's case, it's hard to see how Mullins (21.9 ppg., second-team consensus A-A) got it and Verga (22.0 ppg., first-team consensus A-A) didn't.

    The problem is that these decisions were made long after the fact. What happened is that Duke retired Duke Groat's jersey in basketball and baseball in 1952, then long-time athletic director Eddie Cameron decided that no more jerseys would be honored. Bubas begged him to honor Heyman, but was refused.

    It was only in 1980, when Tom Butters was AD that Bill Foster was able to convince the school to honor Mike Gminski -- his number was just the second one retired. That opened the door for Coach K to honor his first greats -- Dawkins and Ferry.

    But old-timers pointed out to him how the Bubas-era stars got screwed, so in 1990, he got Heyman's jersey retired ... in 1994 Mullins followed.

    I don't dispute either -- both were well-deserved -- but I do think Verga and MAYBE Jack Marin would be honored too.

    Vacendak -- no. I liked him as a player, but he never made a significant All-America team and was never even first-team All-ACC (although he did win the 1966 ACC POY award after behind the No. 9 vote getter on the All-ACC team).

    When you total Scheyer's accomplishments, you'll see that they look a lot like Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks and Mark Alarie. It would be hard to put him in without honoring those three guys -- and maybe Trajan Langdon, who was close to that level too.

    You have to draw a line somewhere ...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    #11 belongs in the rafters...wait...it is in the rafters so #11 needs to be in the rafters twice. Bob Verga definitely deserves to have his number retired.
    Bob Green

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    My understanding is that it is highly unlikely that any old-timers will be added to the retired jersey list. I would put Verga, Jim Spanarkel, Mark Alarie and Gene Banks at the top of the non-honored list. Trajan Langdon probably needs to be in the high-near-miss category, along with the much undervalued Randy Denton, Marin and maybe Chris Duhon.

    Haven't had enough time to properly evaluate Scheyer. These things need to marinate a while.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Gene Banks
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  9. #9
    First of all, Singler!

    We've been through the whole individual vs team accomplishment thing before, but the first thing to jump out at me is that our first three title teams all have at least two retired jerseys, and all our Final Four teams have at least one retired jersey, except for I think 1966. Just something to think about in regards to our Big Three from last year, and the guys on the '66 team...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Durham, NC

    Claudius Claiborne

    I'd argue for Claudius Claiborne, the first African American player at Duke. I don't think he was a great player, but he did make a great contribution to the University,

    Howard

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Vacendak -- no. I liked him as a player, but he never made a significant All-America team and was never even first-team All-ACC (although he did win the 1966 ACC POY award after behind the No. 9 vote getter on the All-ACC team).
    Not to be overly argumentative, but in 1965 and 1966 Steve Vacendak was a Second-Team All American and, as you indicated, in '66 he was also the ACC Player-of-the-Year; those credentials seem to me to be somewhat impressive.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by 4decadedukie View Post
    Not to be overly argumentative, but in 1965 and 1966 Steve Vacendak was a Second-Team All American and, as you indicated, in '66 he was also the ACC Player-of-the-Year; those credentials seem to me to be somewhat impressive.
    I'll defer to Olympic Fan or Jim Sumner to jump in here with the details (because I was seven years old in 1966) but there were some strange circumstances surrounding Vacendak winning ACC POY in '66. As OF stated, he received the 9th most votes in the All ACC team voting.
    Bob Green

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Talking Stevie Wonder

    Quote Originally Posted by 4decadedukie View Post
    Not to be overly argumentative, but in 1965 and 1966 Steve Vacendak was a Second-Team All American and, as you indicated, in '66 he was also the ACC Player-of-the-Year; those credentials seem to me to be somewhat impressive.
    Stevie Wonder was a good guy and a really good player but was never an All-American, at least according to the Duke Basketball Yearbooks I have. He was 2nd team All-ACC those years, which seven other Devils* who played in the 1960s achieved, only two of whose jerseys are retired.

    The story of how Vacendak got to be the MVP in 1966, although barely 2nd team All-ACC, is an interesting one, which I will let others relate. I was in grad school away from the ACC in the late 1960's.

    sagegrouse
    '*Howard Hurt, Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins, Jack Marin, Bob Verga, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton. Boy! Those are good memories.'

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Forest City, NC
    Vacendak was not statistically inclined and therefore not recognized for his value. But was a player, a leader, a winner and gave everything he had on the basketball court. He had an inter-toughness and a will to win like not many others. This is why he was named ACC Player-of-the-year while not on the first team All-ACC team. Those that never saw him have missed a great one.

    This also reminds me of Louis Allen a tackle on one of Wallace Wade's team. A tackle that is the only lineman to ever start all four years for WW. He was reputed to never have been blocked completely out of a play. Also an All American.
    Two really tough sons-of-a-gun.

    As you can tell I am an old timer and this post is probably out of place but I did love both these ex-Duke GREATS.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    I can't comment on the players from the 60's, but from 1972 on I can, and will. Of all the players who are honored in the Hall of Honor with plaques (and thereby will never have their jersey's retired because they are already honored, or so is the "official" policy we were told about 10 years ago when they started the Hall), Jim Spanarkel is the one who is most deserving, more so than Banks or Alarie.

    As to Kyle Singler, if he has the kind of year we hope he has, he'll raise a jersey banner along with a second National Championship banner next year, and we'll have another display case for National Player of the Year in the HOF room!
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    https://ecogreen.greentechaffiliate.com

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia

    Ozzie re Kyle and Duke's next season . . .

    I / We can only hope . . .

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    For all the "old timers" there is one difference Scheyer led us to a NC, and as harsh and "infidelish" as it may seem Spinarkle, Alarie and Banks did not.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tampa

    and this leads to retirements in other sports...

    First, are we sure that Dick Groat's baseball jersey is retired as mentioned by Olympic Fan. I know that the original plaque showing the retirement had a baseball jersey in it too, but my understanding is that Duke has never retired a jersey in any sport other than basketball (men's and women's). Does anyone have any confirmation on Groat's baseball jersey? Nowhere at Jack Coombs is there any indication his number has been retired, nor is it in the baseball media guide (IIRC).

    This leads to the second issue. Why hasn't Duke ever retired a number in any other sport? Duke certainly has had a large number of National Players of the Year in numerous sports (in addition to individual NCAA Champions), and players with national honors on National Championship teams. Additionally, Duke Football has more than a fair share of members of the College Football Hall of Fame and 3 players in Canton. These numbers/jerseys (in the pre-number days) should all be retired too.
    ___________________
    Mike Stein
    Trinity '97, Tent #1 '97
    Tampa

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    For all the "old timers" there is one difference Scheyer led us to a NC, and as harsh and "infidelish" as it may seem Spinarkle, Alarie and Banks did not.
    Spanarkel, with the addition of Banks, Dennard and Gminski in later years, led us from ACC perennial last place doormat to the 1978 Final game vs. Kentucky. If it wasn't for Goose Givens our first banner would have said St. Louis on it.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    https://ecogreen.greentechaffiliate.com

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by msdukie View Post
    This leads to the second issue. Why hasn't Duke ever retired a number in any other sport? Duke certainly has had a large number of National Players of the Year in numerous sports (in addition to individual NCAA Champions), and players with national honors on National Championship teams.
    Well, for starters, most women golfers don't wear numbers on their "jerseys"

    And Duke has retired Womens BBall numbers.

    Maybe when Sean Renfree leads us to the National Championship in 2012 his will be the first football number retired!
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    https://ecogreen.greentechaffiliate.com

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