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  1. #1

    NCAA decides 68-team format - Last four at-large and 4 automatic qualifiers play-in

    http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5374116

    I personally like it. It's somewhat of a compromise; the last four at-large will help TV ratings and having the auto qualifiers makes scheduling the #1 seeds possible. Some interesting points:

    The games will be televised on TruTv
    So, this could mean that two could be considered No. 12 seeds playing for the right to play a No. 5 and two could be No. 11s vying to play a No. 6 in the second round.
    "The teams selected for these games will be like teams," Guerrero said. "We felt if we were going to expand the field it would create better drama for the tournament if the First Four was much more exciting. They could all be on the 10 line or the 12 line or the 11 line. We won't know until the seeding takes place and the principles and procedures are used and the teams are slotted appropriately."
    They're calling the last at-large teams, "The First Four." Strange...

    Edit: This does make filling out brackets more complicated since it's possible one of the "first four" goes on to win a second round game, so I'd think most brackets would require you to choose the winners of those play-in games. So, deciding your winners might have to be done earlier in the week. Unless sites are just going to do what they do know for 16 seeds, but that is basically because 16 seeds have no chance at beating a 1 seed. An 11 seed certainly has a chance to beat a 6.
    Last edited by Bluedog; 07-12-2010 at 03:51 PM.

  2. #2
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    NCAA decides how 68-team format will work

    According to this article, it appears that they have adopted a hybrid model where there will be:

    2 play-in games involving teams the last 4 automatic qualifiers (essentially 65 v 68 and 66 v 67). The winners will play #1 seeds just like the previous play-in game winners

    and

    2 play-in games involving the last four at-large teams. These games will be seeded in the bracket so that the winner will likely play a 5 or 6 seed (since the last at-large teams are usually 11 or 12).

    I think it is a fairly decent compromise. The only issue I see is that I think the 2 teams teams in the 5-6 range that get to play these "First round" winners will have an advantage over other teams on their seed line because they will be playing a team that has just played 2 nights before, has to travel and has had less time to scout.

    What do y'all think?
    Last edited by tbyers11; 07-12-2010 at 03:54 PM. Reason: Bluedog beat me by a few minutes. Mods please merge or delete

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbyers11 View Post
    According to this article, it appears that they have adopted a hybrid model where there will be:

    2 play-in games involving teams the last 4 automatic qualifiers (essentially 65 v 68 and 66 v 67). The winners will play #1 seeds just like the previous play-in game winners

    and

    2 play-in games involving the last four at-large teams. These games will be seeded in the bracket so that the winner will likely play a 5 or 6 seed (since the last at-large teams are usually 11 or 12).

    I think it is a fairly decent compromise. The only issue I see is that I think the 2 teams teams in the 5-6 range that get to play these "First round" winners will have an advantage over other teams on their seed line because they will be playing a team that has just played 2 nights before, has to travel and has had less time to scout.

    What do y'all think?
    I think its a great compromise. By the end of the year, if a team can't prepare off a 2 day break, then they don't deserve to win anyway
    1200. DDMF.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by tbyers11 View Post
    The only issue I see is that I think the 2 teams teams in the 5-6 range that get to play these "First round" winners will have an advantage over other teams on their seed line because they will be playing a team that has just played 2 nights before, has to travel and has had less time to scout.
    You should ask the Big East coaches about this - there's a lot of complaints about how the double-bye there actually makes it harder for the higher-seeded team to win because there's been a long layoff for them whereas their opponents, who are lower-seeded, have played a real game more recently and get ready to go faster. These teams are often 10/11/12 seeds who win against 7/6/5 seeds with some regularity, so we'll have to wait and see.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpkinFunk View Post
    You should ask the Big East coaches about this - there's a lot of complaints about how the double-bye there actually makes it harder for the higher-seeded team to win because there's been a long layoff for them whereas their opponents, who are lower-seeded, have played a real game more recently and get ready to go faster. These teams are often 10/11/12 seeds who win against 7/6/5 seeds with some regularity, so we'll have to wait and see.
    Point about the Big East double bye situation duly noted. Maybe you're right and having already played a game might get rid of some of those jitters that you see in a lot of teams the first 5 minutes or so of an NCAA game.

    However, I think the situation is a little different because these first four teams will have to travel from Dayton to wherever instead of just going back to the Garden. Also, the teams that have already played a game in the opening rounds of the Big East tourney are generally playing the next game for their NCAA tourney life against a team that is usually already in the NCAA tourney and doesn't have quite the same motivation.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by PumpkinFunk View Post
    You should ask the Big East coaches about this - there's a lot of complaints about how the double-bye there actually makes it harder for the higher-seeded team to win because there's been a long layoff for them whereas their opponents, who are lower-seeded, have played a real game more recently and get ready to go faster. These teams are often 10/11/12 seeds who win against 7/6/5 seeds with some regularity, so we'll have to wait and see.
    The big difference here is that they will not be playing in the same arena and will have to travel between games. That seems like it turns the potential advantage into maybe a slight disadvantage. The scouting is also a bigger issue since the teams may be more unfamiliar with each other (whereas everyone within a conference knows everyone pretty well I would think).

  7. #7
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    The absolute BIGGEST problem that no one is talking about. And this gets to the core, most important thing about the NCAA tournament:

    We will have less than 48 hours to complete and turn in our brackets and pay our money. So now, not only is Thu and Fri shot as far as work goes, Monday might be too.

    I mean -- I enter an 800 person bracket each year that still requires us to deliver money by hand. What if I can't get it in in time? I shudder at the thought.

    I gotta believe the rule should be: brackets in by Tuesday before first game, money in by Thursday at 11:00 Eastern.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    The absolute BIGGEST problem that no one is talking about. And this gets to the core, most important thing about the NCAA tournament:

    We will have less than 48 hours to complete and turn in our brackets and pay our money. So now, not only is Thu and Fri shot as far as work goes, Monday might be too.

    I mean -- I enter an 800 person bracket each year that still requires us to deliver money by hand. What if I can't get it in in time? I shudder at the thought.

    I gotta believe the rule should be: brackets in by Tuesday before first game, money in by Thursday at 11:00 Eastern.
    I mentioned it in the other thread I started. But nobody seems to want to reply on that one since this one is higher on the list. hahaha. But I totally agree. I also have pools where you multiply the seed for first round wins, so those 2 play in games will be HUGE if keep the same point format...But probably will have to switch it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    The absolute BIGGEST problem that no one is talking about. And this gets to the core, most important thing about the NCAA tournament:

    We will have less than 48 hours to complete and turn in our brackets and pay our money. So now, not only is Thu and Fri shot as far as work goes, Monday might be too.

    I mean -- I enter an 800 person bracket each year that still requires us to deliver money by hand. What if I can't get it in in time? I shudder at the thought.

    I gotta believe the rule should be: brackets in by Tuesday before first game, money in by Thursday at 11:00 Eastern.
    Not only that, but 11/12 seeds often beat 5/6 seeds and I tend to pick them based on the match-ups. How am I supposed to do that if I don't know which 11/12 team that's going to be? And how do we deal with that 11/12 early first round winner going deep into the tourney?
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    The absolute BIGGEST problem that no one is talking about. And this gets to the core, most important thing about the NCAA tournament:

    We will have less than 48 hours to complete and turn in our brackets and pay our money. So now, not only is Thu and Fri shot as far as work goes, Monday might be too.

    I mean -- I enter an 800 person bracket each year that still requires us to deliver money by hand. What if I can't get it in in time? I shudder at the thought.

    I gotta believe the rule should be: brackets in by Tuesday before first game, money in by Thursday at 11:00 Eastern.
    Yeah, I don't like that either. I love to take in as much info as possible on Monday and Tuesday and fill out my bracket Wednesday, but that goes out the window.

    I may be in the minority on this one, but I think that this was more of a cop-out than a compromise. I really think that the committee should have either told the big boy's that they're just lucky to be here, or tell the little guy's that their teams are just plain bad and don't bring anything to the table. I really could have lived with either decision, though personally, I think that anything that would have gotten us closer to the "best 64 teams" playing would have been better. I don't see the need to prop up teams that can't fill a high-school gym sized arena for regular season games. By any legitimate standard, some of these teams should in no way be in the same Division as the big dogs, but they've somehow earned a bid by beating three crappy teams in a conference tourney more than the teams who have grinded out an entire season in a legit conference. I would have loved to see a tournament where the Robert Morris's of the world get their shot at a one seed. Imagine if Ohio had played Ohio State instead of Georgetown, and Murray state played a 3-seed like Baylor. I liked the idea of a stronger 64-team field.

    That's not to say that I wouldn't have supported an all at-large first round either. I wrote an article that I've linked in my signature for 5-months now saying that they should have exactly that format, even before they decided on 68-teams. I think that they were just trying to come up with something that wouldn't piss too many people off and they just made it really confusing which will only drive the casual viewer away who won't want to fill out a bracket by Tuesday.

  11. #11
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    I think its weird when a 13/14 team has an advantage over an 11/12 since they'll have one less game in the set-up.

  12. #12

    Trying to figure out how this might work in brackets

    Brackets bring millions of casual fans to the NCAA Tournament, so the NCAA tries to screw them up. Unbelievable.

    Somehow I think we will figure out a way for this to work with the bracets.

    SoCal

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    The absolute BIGGEST problem that no one is talking about. And this gets to the core, most important thing about the NCAA tournament:

    We will have less than 48 hours to complete and turn in our brackets and pay our money. So now, not only is Thu and Fri shot as far as work goes, Monday might be too.

    I mean -- I enter an 800 person bracket each year that still requires us to deliver money by hand. What if I can't get it in in time? I shudder at the thought.

    I gotta believe the rule should be: brackets in by Tuesday before first game, money in by Thursday at 11:00 Eastern.
    Why not just work it like the play-in game now, and not turn in your bracket until after the Tuesday games are decided? Will people feel robbed of their bracket experience if they don't get the chance to pick a winner between two mediocre big conference teams?
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Why not just work it like the play-in game now, and not turn in your bracket until after the Tuesday games are decided? Will people feel robbed of their bracket experience if they don't get the chance to pick a winner between two mediocre big conference teams?
    I think it's because we all expect 16 seeds to lose. These will playin games for 10-13 seeds (the fact that isn't even hardwired is troublesome). At least 3-4 10-13 seeds win every year. But I may think Team A has a better shot at beating random 5 seed than Team B does. Whether I pick that 5 seed to win its game depends on the outcome of the play in. That's not the case for the 1-16 because no one ever picks a 16 seed.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    I think it's because we all expect 16 seeds to lose. These will playin games for 10-13 seeds (the fact that isn't even hardwired is troublesome). At least 3-4 10-13 seeds win every year. But I may think Team A has a better shot at beating random 5 seed than Team B does. Whether I pick that 5 seed to win its game depends on the outcome of the play in. That's not the case for the 1-16 because no one ever picks a 16 seed.
    Well, right, but you can make that decision on Wednesday. Nothing's stopping you from filling out the rest of the bracket, and then making the decisions based on the play-in winners on Wednesday. I guess it's a slight modification on the current system, since you aren't just taking the winner of the game regardless of who it is. But I think simply ignoring the first round games for picking purposes and then making the choice once the 64-team field is set would not be a great impediment.

    I'd much rather make a quick decision as to only a handful of games, rather than as to all 63 games.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Well, right, but you can make that decision on Wednesday. Nothing's stopping you from filling out the rest of the bracket, and then making the decisions based on the play-in winners on Wednesday. I guess it's a slight modification on the current system, since you aren't just taking the winner of the game regardless of who it is. But I think simply ignoring the first round games for picking purposes and then making the choice once the 64-team field is set would not be a great impediment.

    I'd much rather make a quick decision as to only a handful of games, rather than as to all 63 games.
    But it still gives you a 36 hour window to get your picks and money in (End of Tue night to Thurs at 11:00).

  17. #17

    How Will This Work ?

    For sake of argument less suppose that the last 4 selected teams are seeded 41 -44.

    So then 65-68 play and we get two winners. I assume that they will be the 16 seeds in two of the regions. The 41-44 play and we get two winners, which I assume will be the 11 seeds in the other two regions. Is that right? What will we know on Selection Sunday? When will we know the Bracket for the 64 teams?

    Thanks

    SoCal

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    For sake of argument less suppose that the last 4 selected teams are seeded 41 -44.

    So then 65-68 play and we get two winners. I assume that they will be the 16 seeds in two of the regions. The 41-44 play and we get two winners, which I assume will be the 11 seeds in the other two regions. Is that right? What will we know on Selection Sunday? When will we know the Bracket for the 64 teams?

    Thanks

    SoCal
    I think the NCAA's goal is to get us to accept another round, so that we just lose focus on the 64 team bracket. They will add more and more teams over the next few seasons until it's a 96 team tourney.

    -jk

  19. #19
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    There is a major, practical problem with this approach. The NCAA will continue to announce its seedings and brackets -- including the new First Four -- late on Selection Sunday. This, presuming the play-in games occur on Tuesday, creates an approximate forty-eight hour deadline to accomplish for ALL the LOGISTICAL and ADMINISTRATIVE actions required to support these play-in games. This includes (but is certainly not limited to): travel arrangements (team, media, fans, university officials, alumni, etc.), television (and aggregate press) coverage, ticket sales and distribution, local transportation and parking, arena preparation and catering, venue supplementary employment (everything from security, to stadium ushers and food/memorabilia sales-people, to parking lot attendants, and to additional hotel personnel), city temporary event support (police, fire, EMS, public transportation, modifications to local parking and traffic rules, etc.), and so forth. Real success is almost always based on intensive management of the "details," and the NCAA's two-day schedule constraint leaves VERY little time to accomplish and to integrate such things with excellence.
    Last edited by 4decadedukie; 07-14-2010 at 07:00 AM.

  20. #20
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    There was nothing wrong with the 64 team tourney, except all the whining from teams that didn't do well enough to get off the bubble and didn't make it as a result.

    This won't stop the whining, but it will mean more money for everyone, including all the coaches who get paid for making the NCAA field. And money is what matters. It won't make for a better tournament, though, just a bigger tournament. I guess we're headed for a 256 team field eventually. And why not? Why disappoint any team if there is money to be made in extending the principle of inclusiveness? And it would at least shut up Doug Gottlieb and Dick Vitale from screaming about some selection outrage or another.
    Last edited by CEF1959; 07-14-2010 at 09:43 AM.

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