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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    That surprised me too!

  2. #82
    How can you not group Scheyer with those two? He was absolutely a better defender than Henderson last year, consistently harassing and staying in front of his man while rarely missing a beat on team help. He showed more scoring/driving ability than either Nelson or G did as a freshman. He probably doesn't have the outright hops of those two, who are freaks in that one dimension, but he's very athletic...I'd say more athletic than Dockery, who was frequently touted as an "athletic in-your-face defender."

    Faced with (yet another) two people who apparently never watched Scheyer objectively, I'm starting to realize why Jumbo brings up the race card so often...

  3. #83
    Scheyer is VERY athletic; I was shocked this year when people dismissed him as not being athletic. Did you guys not watch him cut to the hoop, or play defense? While maybe not Gerald-athletic, I see nothing that sets him apart from Demarcus athletically other than skin color.
    Last edited by Lord Ash; 06-10-2007 at 06:26 PM.

  4. #84

    Scheyer

    Scheyer was constantly guarding other opponents top offensive players. I don't remember VCU's star player's name but he was guarding him and did pretty good. The defensive experience he gained in his freshman year will give him the confidence to excell both offensively and defensively in his sophomore season.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
    Faced with (yet another) two people who apparently never watched Scheyer objectively, I'm starting to realize why Jumbo brings up the race card so often...
    Basically calling me a racist. What a ridiculous comment. You don't even know me. Very uncalled for.

    It has nothing to with Scheyer being white. I think Marty is every bit as athletic as Henderson and Nelson...and guess what, he's white. Now allow me to breakdown my viewpoints objectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
    How can you not group Scheyer with those two? He was absolutely a better defender than Henderson last year, consistently harassing and staying in front of his man while rarely missing a beat on team help. He showed more scoring/driving ability than either Nelson or G did as a freshman. ...
    I flat out disagree on basically all of this. Gerald's ability to get drive and get to the basket, or drive and pull up was excellent. Scheyer's ability to get to the rack I felt was in large part because he would get the ball after several passes and the D would rotate over and try to close out on him to prevent a 3 b/c he's a good shooter. He would take advantage of this overaggresiveness and get past his initial defender very easily.

    I do think he was a better defender than Henderson, but Nelson was definitely the best defender on the team, especially with his ability to easily guard 3 positions...and if you recall he often guarded the 4 as a freshman.

    Also, Nelson wasn't a freshman last year, and ur comment said nothing about scheyer being as good as nelson WAS in all of those categories. you grouped scheyer as a freshman in with nelson as a junior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
    He probably doesn't have the outright hops of those two, who are freaks in that one dimension, but he's very athletic...I'd say more athletic than Dockery, who was frequently touted as an "athletic in-your-face defender."
    Not sure how we got to dockery, but: I've played ball with Dockery and seen him throw the ball off the backboard catch it in mid-air and spin 180 for a reverse, in a pick up game. I've also seen him throw it off glass, catch it in the air take it between the legs and throw it down (not during a game). No, scheyer is not as athletic as him.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by kramerbr View Post
    Scheyer was constantly guarding other opponents top offensive players.
    No, Nelson usually was, if he could be spared from having to guard a bigger guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by kramerbr View Post
    I don't remember VCU's star player's name but he was guarding him and did pretty good. The defensive experience he gained in his freshman year will give him the confidence to excell both offensively and defensively in his sophomore season.
    Maynor was his name.

    You mean like when Scheyer guarded him on the last play and Maynor hit the winning shot?

  7. #87
    I will get better defensive ratings this coming year because I will actually record the most relevant stats, but the estimated defensive ratings that can be calculated using existing stats are usually pretty accurate. Also, usually the following "rates" refer to percentages of a certain stat that the player got. For instance, a steal rate refers to the number of steals the player gets divided by the % of minutes he played on the season times the number of opponent possessions. You then estimate on what percent of opponent possessions while the player is on the floor that he steals the ball.

    That being said, the defensive ratings from this past year are pretty in-sync with our general subjective experience. Among our guards, Nelson has the best with 89.8 (a function of being one of our better defensive rebounders, plus having the most steals and still logging 17 blocks). Our second best guard-defender was Henderson with a rating of 94.17. This is mostly due to his high defensive rebound rate and his 10 blocks in only 47.3% of total minutes. Scheyer is next with a 97.35 rating. He does not nearly have the defensive rebounding rate of Henderson or Nelson, but he had 38 steals on the season, giving him a steal rate of 2.11 (better than Henderson's 1.56, but worse than Nelsons 2.52 and Paulus' 2.14). Finally, Paulus had a D-rating of 98.42. As mentioned, he had a good steal rate, but had a very low defensive rebounding rate and only a few blocks. The thing is, given his position, he will likely never get defensive rebounds anyway. Historically, our point guards (following this formula) have higher defensive ratings than other wing players who may be in a better position to get more defensive rebounds.

    At any rate, what this tells me and from watching the games, I believe that Scheyer is a pretty good defender. He's not slow, but he's not super quick either. I think he can be a very good defender with more experience and skill. I think Paulus will need to be healthy before we can completely evaluate him, but I don't think he is an awful defender. Nelson is an all-around stopper who rebounds well, can block shots and get plenty of steals, while Henderson is more of a small forward who can block some shots and get rebounds, but has some technical work to do defending.

    Hopefully this coming year, these expectations will be confirmed with more detailed defensive statistics that I will keep personally...

  8. #88

    Back to Greg

    I like Greg because he is a warrier, but I agree he has not yet shown signs that he is an elite PG. I realize he led the league in assists his freshman year but he was passing the ball to JJ and Sheldon ( and occasionally McRoberts). Coach K could have racked up a pile of assists playing with those guys.


    I also recognize he played injured this past season which undoubtedly impaired his ability to handle, pass, and defend. He did look like a very good shooting guard the last third of the season.

    The fundamental question at this point is the nature of the surgery he had on his left foot. It seems unlikely, but is it possible his fifth metatarsal was removed as Jeff Goodman stated? If so, that is very bad news because his career as a college player likely is over; he would not be able to cut or run at full speed.

    Even the reconstructive surgery suggested by the physician on DRB is serious because it means Greg probably won't be able to work out on his feet all summer. He could weight lift and do aerobic workouts like swimming, rowing, stationary biking, etc. but not play ball. If he is not close to 100% by October then we will have big holes at the 1 and 5 positions.

    Any word on what kind of surgery he had, and how his recovery is going?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    Basically calling me a racist. What a ridiculous comment. You don't even know me. Very uncalled for.
    What?

    I'll spell out my point. First the obvious: race is the biggest issue in American basketball. Having to acknowledge and respond to this fact in every thread gets tiresome, so I don't always appreciate it when posters like Jumbo bring it up. Yet every now & then I'm reminded why they do so.

    I didn't say anything about you specifically, and I certainly didn't call anyone a bigot.

    I brought up Dockery because he was the most recent Duke guard to be lauded as a lock-down defender. Last year, Scheyer (frosh) was nearly Dock's equal (as a senior). And I'll stand by my comment about their raw athleticism. As I already pointed out, it encompasses more than leaping: in this very thread, sprinting and lateral quickness have gotten more discussion than leaping, deservedly so. Scheyer is just as quick as Dock while standing 5" taller. If he added a 180 dunk on top of his core strengths, it wouldn't surprise me that much.

    Nelson is a better defender than both. G also has the potential to be...someday. Nobody disputes that. The point is, we don't need any more athletic, slashing, lock-down guards. We need the 3 guys (4 if you overlook Marty's defense) who already fit that label to mature. Just like we'll need Smith to mature once he arrives. Expecting him to fill a hole that (a) doesn't exist by any reasonable definition (b) requires everyone not named Durant time to learn, is ludicrous.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    The Physical Genius

    An article in the New Yorker, I think from 4/14/03, asks, "What do Wayne Gretzky, Yo-Yo Ma, and a brain surgeon have in common?" The author makes the case that they each possess a type of genuis that is of different quality, that is different in nature, than the intellectual variety.

    Gretzky explained, "people talk about skating, puck-handling, ahd shooting, but the whole sport is angles and caroms, forgetting the straight direction the puck is going, calculating where it will be diverted, factoring in all the interruptions." Reportedly,when Gretzky was two, he watche hockey games on tv, enraptured, and slid his stoinged feet on the linoleum, playing out in his mind's eye the choices he would make, only to cry when the game was over.

    It has to do with seeing the field of play, and understanding the probabilities, and being able to act on what one sees, while maintaining the ability to adapt as the probabilities might dictate.

    So, what does this have to do with the discussion at hand?

    Interesting question if you ask me.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    It has to do with seeing the field of play, and understanding the probabilities, and being able to act on what one sees, while maintaining the ability to adapt as the probabilities might dictate.
    If I recall correctly, Larry Bird was supposed to be able to do these things on the basketball ball court. Just like when he followed his shot when, after he shot it, he knew it was a miss, and knew exactly where it would bounce, got there, jumped and caught the ball, and in mid-air, shot the ball in the basket... with his left hand, I think...

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by gep View Post
    If I recall correctly, Larry Bird was supposed to be able to do these things on the basketball ball court. Just like when he followed his shot when, after he shot it, he knew it was a miss, and knew exactly where it would bounce, got there, jumped and caught the ball, and in mid-air, shot the ball in the basket... with his left hand, I think...
    Most really good ballplayers can, to some degree or the other. The ones who do it in the upper ranges, the genius range, or approaching it, can be extremely valuable on the court and, like Bird, but to a lesser degree (we are talking complete genuis there boys) surprise you in many ways.

    My guess from having seen him twice, Greer on the LAX team, Crotty, Danowski. Schuyer, DeMarcus, Paulus, you tell me.

    You want to here a hoot, for a 7 footer especially, I'm not sure that Zman doesn't see a whole lot more than the average bear too.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
    And I'll stand by my comment about their raw athleticism. As I already pointed out, it encompasses more than leaping: in this very thread, sprinting and lateral quickness have gotten more discussion than leaping, deservedly so. Scheyer is just as quick as Dock while standing 5" taller. If he added a 180 dunk on top of his core strengths, it wouldn't surprise me that much..
    I disagree with so much so I'll just limit my response to this which should summarize my feelings: Wrong. Dock was listed at 6'2 so scheyer is only 3 inches taller.

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Annandale, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by trinity92 View Post
    The following are samples of why you don't get the privilege of full responses from me refuting you:



    Please don't confuse distaste for inability to respond.

    T
    Wow. Distaste indeed. I'll stand by my previous post responding to you and let the readers of the board decide for themselves what defines distasteful. And I think you are wrong in your belief that I will be lonely in defending Casey Sanders, or even Rickey Price. While I don't intend to compete with anyone about who gets more frustrated or disappointed with such players performances on court I will just say that we were all disapponted, and that should be obvious.
    The Gordog

  15. #95

    Paulus, Scheyer

    Both of these youngsters have gotten hammered by several posters over the past several months. Based on what I've seen, they along with Nelson, Henderson and Singler, will be the top players on the team next year.

    I was glad to see Scheyer and Nelson selected to try out for the Pan Am team this summer. I think that both can use this experience to develop as players.

    Coach K will play those players that he thinks will be best for the team. If Paulus and Scheyer are the starting backcourt, they are the best that we have regardless of what some think. If either is replaced by another then so be it. In any case, I hope that the tenor of the player criticisms is not so harsh this coming year.

    gw67

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham

    Paulus clarification and Scheyer

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
    How can you not group Scheyer with those two? He was absolutely a better defender than Henderson last year, consistently harassing and staying in front of his man while rarely missing a beat on team help. He showed more scoring/driving ability than either Nelson or G did as a freshman. He probably doesn't have the outright hops of those two, who are freaks in that one dimension, but he's very athletic...I'd say more athletic than Dockery, who was frequently touted as an "athletic in-your-face defender."

    Faced with (yet another) two people who apparently never watched Scheyer objectively, I'm starting to realize why Jumbo brings up the race card so often...
    In my response to your earlier comments, I say this year is Greg Paulus' most pivotal year because with Smith now behind him and Elliott Williams in the backlog (hopefully), if Greg Paulus plays next year like he did last year, I'm confident he will not be the starting PG for the start of his senior year, probably not even by the end of his junior year.

    As far as my statement about the in-your-face athletic defender that can attack the rim, I meant at the PG spot. Obviously Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson are capable, but none of the 3 can run PG; I think we learned that last year when there was no viable alternative to Paulus at the 1. That's not how it will be this year. Smith, whether he starts or not, provides athleticsm and penetration abilities at the 1 that we haven't had since Duhon left.

    As far as your statement above, there are numerous issues I have. Number one, without referring to mepanchin's stats (which seem to support my stance), I'm not even necessarily willing to concede that Scheyer was a better defender than Henderson. But he DEFINITELY was not a better defender than Nelson. Nelson matched up against the opposition's best offensive player every game, as long as he wasn't a 4 or 5, though K never hesitates to throw Nelson on bigger players. I have no idea which team you were watching, but Nelson was easily the best on-the-ball defender we had on our team last year.

    As far as scoring and driving ability, Scheyer showed the least out of the three. The ability to get to the basket off dribble penetration was noticeably missing from Scheyer's game, and as the year went on, you saw teams pressure him more on the close-outs, forcing him to put the ball on the floor because they knew he wasn't yet comfortable doing so. Again, I don't know which team you were watching.

    Scheyer more athletic than Dockery? That is just flat-out wrong, brother. Off-base, plain and simple. That's all I can say about that.

    Put it like this, I'll say Scheyer is adequately athletic, enough (combined with his strong BBall IQ) to be a very good player in the ACC. But to call him "VERY athletic" like Lord Ash is, again, wrong. Scheyer is less athletic than every other player I've mentioned in this post (besides Paulus), and by a decent amount. I think he's a very good player, he's critical to the success of this team, and that he'll improve vastly over this summer, but let's be realistic, guys.

  17. #97

    Talking

    ^agreed. Maybe its cause the '06 class dominated (freshman year epworth, baby)

    t '06

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Classof06 View Post
    Put it like this, I'll say Scheyer is adequately athletic, enough (combined with his strong BBall IQ) to be a very good player in the ACC. But to call him "VERY athletic" like Lord Ash is, again, wrong. Scheyer is less athletic than every other player I've mentioned in this post (besides Paulus), and by a decent amount.
    This endless debate is tiresome. It is clear that athleticism for some means something different than it does for others. Hence, an irresolvable dispute about who is more or less "athletic." It depends on what you mean by the word.

    Is Tiger Woods athletic? For those championing the Scheyer and Paulus are not very athletic position, I assume the answer would have to be, "I don't know" because I assume they haven't seen him doing anything sport-related other than striking a golf-ball.

    For this debate to have meaning, a definition of athleticism would have to be agreed upon.
    "Just like you man. I got the shotgun, you got the briefcase." Omar Little

  19. #99

    Talking

    That is really clever, repo. Kill a good discussion by asking for rationality. You don't belong on a Net sportsboard. You must be a Duke grad. LOL

    Don't worry, it is unlikely that anyone will attempt to reach agreement on a definition of "athletic." I nominate your post for Post of the Week.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    But first we need to define the criteria for "Post of the Week."

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