Island = real life for Losties
Flash-sideways = Losties envisioned it after death, before "moving on"
There's some possible ambiguity in showing the wreckage...in that maybe the Losties were dead all along...but I think that was more a reflection of how far the show has come since that Pilot episode (chaos replaced by peace and quiet, all those frantic characters have now moved on, etc). I mean, it was just the wreckage (no bodies or anything). But I'm sure TPTB also realized that some people could raise the issue of their being dead the whole time, and I'm sure they feel okay with that ambiguity too.
My thoughts is the sideways universe is "the real" and the island is purgetory. I will preface this as I watched all of the first three season and some episodes here and there, since, but caught most of season 6. First was the ending that showed the wreckage with no survivors. Everyone on the plane died. Also how else would you explain Richard Alpert, Ben Linus etc? They are people they "met" in Purgetory. I think Kate was Jack's wife in real like...and that was their son. Julliet as Jack's ex-wife was random.
Just my .02
But Lost never came close to being as bad as Alias ended up being in its later seasons. Last night was great even if the very end left us empty regarding the "mystery" storylines. The character storylines were great and helped offset being cheated on the other stuff, even if just a little.
As another poster mentioned, the very end with Jack lying in the place he was in after the initial crash, combined with the shots of the plane wreckage on the beach, had me believing they all died in the original crash. But that does not line up with how it ended. If they all died in the crash, then how did they find each other in the flash sideways and remember relationships/activities that never happened? I'm Lost on whether they survived the original crash or no?
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The polar bears question has been pretty thoroughly answered. Check out lostpedia if you're still wondering about them: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Polar_bears
And yes, if the island was real life...that can mean the part where the Oceanic Six left was real life too. Then when they returned to the island...that was real life too. The only part that wasn't real was the flash-sideways world in Season 6. That sideways world had nothing to do with the off-island world in Seasons 4-5...it was created by Losties after they died. I don't see any inconsistency there at all.
I think it was pretty good considering the writers didn't take 12 years to create a "middle-earth".
A human being is a part of a whole, called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest ... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.
A small point, his wound was to the abdomen, not chest (just a small correction). I too wondered how he made it out of the cave without damage though. My only thought, and it's a STRETCH, but he seemed to have ended up in a similar location to MIB when he came out the smoke monster. Maybe being chosen gives you some sort of protection? Maybe he was chucked out smokey style but was never given everlasting life as jacob and MIB were by their mother? I dunno...I agree on that one but I let it slide
Jason, I like most of your posts but man...that's a lot of hate you're throwing. I know a few things I wish were different or were answered differently, but I'm really glad I've been able to not be bothered by them and just enjoy the good while ignoring any things that were off. Which shocks me, because I'm usually the person who focuses on the details.
Last edited by DukeDevil; 05-25-2010 at 12:40 AM. Reason: correction
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I'm not sure how it can be interpreted as anything other than Island=Reality, Sideways=Purgatory/Limbo.
The view of the wreckage at the end just looked like the same wreckage that was there before, just aged and washed by time and a salty breeze.
"Something in my vicinity is Carolina blue and this offends me." - HPR
In other words, if reality is what is perceived by the spirit, the envelope in which the spirit is contained is immaterial.
Tell me one last thing, said Harry. Is this real? Or has this been happening inside my head?
Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?
But one can definitely question what is and isn't real. Does now exist? Did Duke actually win the National Championship? I not the person to ask these questions however.
"Something in my vicinity is Carolina blue and this offends me." - HPR
I don't quite know what to think. I LOVED the episode up until the last 10 minutes. Before that (especially at about the 1 hour mark), I was saying, "Wow - so much is happening, how is this going to last 2 1/2 hours?").
And then the end occurred.....and we find out they are in Purgatory...clinging to their old lives and old haunts until they reach enlightenment and can move on. In the final scene in the church I kept thinking, "Why does this remind me of Titanic?"
So, random thoughts/likes/dislikes
1) There were some tremendous scenes in this. Jin and Sun (and Juliet as their doctor), and suddenly understanding, and speaking English. Just great. Sawyer and Juliet - amazing. Hurley in just about every scene he was in. Ditto for Desmond.
2) Obviously the sideways world was Purgatory....and if you discard the cheesy factor of that (which, admittedly, is tough), and step back and look at the full season, it not only makes sense with what the Producers/Writers were doing, they did a pretty damn good job of it. Sawyer was a cop - not a con-man - still trying to find the person who ruined his life, but realizing that wasn't important. Locke was a person who realized that walking wasn't as important as having love. Hurley had good luck. Kate was desperately seeking redemption. Charlie as well. Claire wanted to keep her child. Jin and Sun were tired of always striving for the support of their parents. And some weren't ready for redemption yet (Ben, even with enlightenment), Ana Lucia - who still was crooked. They did a good job pulling that together. I must admit.
3) So, what was the island? I'm torn here. As someone else said, it could be real (with time travel, planes crashing, electromagnetism, bright lights, people who can't die, etc, etc)....or it could also have been some kind of purgatory. I must admit, that latter seems more likely. Some kind of gateway between life and Purgatory. That would explain the "lists" and people getting taken away after reaching certain points (i.e. Ecko). It would explain why Christian's casket was empty. It would explain why he showed up with Michael on the boat before it exploded. It would explain why you always arrived on the island unconscious - either via plane or sub. It would really explain everything, since none of it was truly real. Of course, we also know that the producers were doing things as they went along, kind of making things up....so maybe they don't know, or, more likely, it changed as they went along. But I think deep down they always knew this was about dying and moving on....and I bet they start hinting that the island wasn't truly real.
4) Things I really liked: Hurley as #1 and Ben as #2 (and mentioning that at the end, which means they lived that way for a while). Ben saying, "Those were Jacob's rules." (again, I think this gives credence to the island as some kind of transition place between life and death. Jacob brought the Black Rock there because he could. Flocke wanted off because he wanted to cheat death. JMHO.). Kate and Jack - they pulled that acting off. Seeing Penny.
5) Things I loved. Hurley and "He's worse than Yoda." Sawyer with lots of Sawyerisms (blondie, tubby, etc). Miles - he was like me - always pretty confused, but going along for the ride. Plus he uses tape to fix things.
6) Things I disliked. Frank not being dead...yeah, they needed a pilot, but how could he have gotten off that sub (unless, of course, the island was never real)? No Ecko at the end (100% on the actor, but boy I would have liked to have seen him). The banter between Jack and his dad (yawn).
7) Thing I absolutely HATED. That Sayid was with Shannon. By far the worst part of this episode for me. Their love interest was way forced in Season 1, and didn't last long (what, a few days - maybe a week). And she's his constant? It should have been Nadia. In fact, in Purgatory he was dealing with his struggle to have her, to see her in an imperfect relationship and know that she could and should be with him - the person who truly loves her. This one single fact almost ruined the episode for me. Almost.
Overall, I liked it. I think they were all dead the entire time, and this was about redemption - with lots of messed up things thrown in, and some B.S. by the producers as they went along. But it was tremendous acting, and a great mystery, and they did a pretty damn good job wrapping it all up, all things considered.
Jack, Kate, Locke, Ben, Sawyer, Hurley, Juliet, Jin, Sun, Charlie, Desmond, Penny, Claire, Sayid, Richard, Rose, Bernard...thanks for being a part of my life. You will be missed.
As always, Doc Jensen's ramblings have a few great nuggets in them:
andI think fans and haters and fans and fans-until-last-night will be debating this for a while. NEWSFLASH! The argument will never be settled. I expect in the days to come, as I find myself in conversations with people who were disappointed, I will be asked to mount a defense of the series. I will be put on the spot to show them why it all ''made sense,'' and failing that, prove them that the show really did have a ''Greater Point To It All.'' But what is certain is that I will convince them of nothing. I also think it would be wrong and even disrespectful of me to try. Your experience of Lost is your experience of Lost, and it is valid. I presume you are intelligent people who are not blinded by personal bias. I am sorry you feel let down. But I do not share your perspective. Does that mean we can't ride the same church bus to heaven together? I hope not.
It's funny that so many people cynically bitch about Lost not having ''a master plan'' the Lost story is all about the folly of ''master plans.'' Anyone who has ever had a master plan on this show has failed catastrophically. Mother. Jacob. The Man In Black. Ben. Charles Widmore. Jack. Sawyer. The best we can do is live our lives with enlightened improvisation to be so self-aware and fearless that we can live fully in the present and redeem our every moment and every human connection.
The more I think about it...all the signs were always there that the island was not real....but some kind of gateway between life and Death.
The plane crashed....and there they were.
Richard - about to be executed for murder....and he ends up on the island.
The woman with twins....her boat sank in a storm. The children would never have been born.
Even the Others - arrived on a sub, and never did so while awake.
Of course it is up to each person to interpret things. But for me, I think the island was never real, which means the mythology never mattered. When Charlie asks, "Where are we?" It's what they all thought. And the scene at the very end, with the plane crash, seems to indicate that nobody survived. Jack lying down next to the shoe in the bamboo made it seem like it all happened at once.
Who knows....but that's my take.
Still reminded me of Titanic.
But how can you leave purgatory like the O6 did? What about Richard traveling to and from the island to meet Locke as a boy? Or Jacob meeting Kate and Sawyer at an early age. It doesn't jive with my understanding that purgatory is somewhere you go after you're dead. If they had died in the original crash, then why would Jacob be in both their childhood reality and in their purgatory?
Also, the shoe was tattered and old. Time had progressed from when they crashed to when Jack died.
Also, also the producers emphatically denied that what was taking place was purgatory way back in season 1 (take that for what it's worth however).
"Something in my vicinity is Carolina blue and this offends me." - HPR
In a nutshell, I enjoyed the finale and I loved the series. Before I expound on my thoughts longer, I wanted to posit a few questions to the experts here:
- What's the significance of the shoe? Did this appear originally near where Jack landed post plane crash?
- What's the significance of Vincent coming to lay with Jack as he passed away?
- Presumably the gray hair on Richard indicates that he is now aging. Is this because Jacob ashes burned out? If so, Richard presumably would've died at some point. Any reason he wasn't at the church?
- Can someone elaborate on "the rules" between Jacob and his brother? Was it anything more than you cannot kill me directly? Presumably, it didn't take MiB thousands of years to figure out a "loophole" as simple as convincing someone else to kill him? Is there more to this?
- Lastly (for now), I'd love more insight into the Ben vs. Widmore relationship. What started this feud? What was the purpose of their rival - simply that Widmore wanted the island and Ben wanted to keep him from it? Did Widmore ultimately have a change of heart because of a conversation with Jacob, or was Widmore still 'battling' Ben in their final scene? Also, I seem to recall a provision in "their rules" where they couldn't directly kill each (didn't Ben once have the opportunity to kill Widmore and chose not to?) -- if this is true, why could Ben kill Widmore during the final episode?
I am going to miss this show. I thought that the ending was incredibly well done - lots of answers...but not TOO many. Just enough to make you think/wonder some more. Wasn't that one of the best things about Lost, that it made you THINK??
Good summary Udaman. I generally agree. I don't think there was any intent by the writers to explain all the answers - in fact quite the opposite. But isn't that more fun anyway?? (BTW, I didn't mind Sayid was with Shannon - for his sake, as he'd become quite the sympathetic character and "deserved" to find love/happiness/fulfillment.) Loved the Yoda line - soooo Hurley. I had a feeling that he'd be a terrific "caretaker." Seemed fitting in the end.
In the end I was very sad to see it go away. Like finishing and setting down a great, engrossing novel. You put it down after the last page, and ....just for moment, wonder..... "OK, what now?"
P.S. Poor Michael, still back there amidst the trees, whispering at people... Unable to leave.
Last edited by -bdbd; 05-26-2010 at 02:51 AM.
You can watch the entire show on-line (I think) and are only 2 seasons behind... I could even tell you which episodes are less essential to the mythology so you could skip them.
-Jason "everyone needs to do this!" Evans
Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk
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