Fresh Kyrie Irving Thread

[Big Pappa]

What am i reading just opinions like everyone else has? I think seth could start. The kid has good handle, passing, and a very good touch with the ball.

I will put it this way, he is more of a passing guard than we have had in a very very Long time..

I understand I just didn't want to start the discussion with you on this thread when we have had it on the other one many times.

For you to say a "very, very long time" is simply incorrect, I would recommend looking at the stats before making blanket statements like that. JWill had 644 in his career (00-02) and Chris Duhon had 819 in his career (00-04), the second most in Duke history. Six years ago is certainly not a "very, very long time" ago.

[Dukefan4Life]

I would say six years of not having a true passing PG is a very long time! Is it me or do you like shooing people down, papp? lol

[Big Pappa]

Is it me or do you like shooing people down, papp? lol

No just you lol. No I don't; I just really don't like it when people post very blanket statements without any type of evidence.

[Dukefan4Life]

You just backed up my statement by telling me just how long it has been. I think alot of people would agree that six-years without a true Guard is WAY too long.

[Big Pappa]

You just backed up my statement by telling me just how long it has been. I think alot of people would agree that six-years without a true Guard is WAY too long.

You just did it again. We have had true guards (I'm assuming you mean point guards) in the last six years: Paulus being the main one. The last two years we have played combo guys at the point: Elliot, Nolan, and Jon.

Secondly, you originally said a "very, very long time" and were talking about a great "passer". I think everyone would agree that Paulus was a good (maybe not great) passer and I think everyone would agree that 6 years is not a "very, very long time."

[Dukefan4Life]

GP was below average passer at best. I dont see how you can say six years without a true or really good Pg is not that long of time.. what if not 6 would you consider a long time????

[Big Pappa]

GP was below average passer at best

Again, you make this claim with no evidence. Straight from Greg's bio from before his senior year:

*Has led the team in assists in each of the past three seasons ... looking to join Bobby Hurley as the only players in Duke history to lead the team in assists four times
*Ranks 11th at Duke with 420 career assists ... 4.08 assists per game average is eighth-best in Duke history
*Recorded at least three assists in 77 of 103 career games
*Has at least one assist in 101 of his 103 career games

He is OBVIOUSLY not a below average passer. I won't continue to argue with you when you continue to make blanket statements without any shred of evidence.

[Big Pappa]

To everyone else: I apologize for wrapping up the thread with this argument, but I couldn't just let these ridiculous statements with no evidence go. I know most of us on here would do the same thing, I just happened to be the one on at the time.

[ElSid]

dukefan4life people get uppity about gp. it is what it is.

the stats don't lie. i said a few less than laudatory things about gp in my day as well and there was a strong mama bear reaction. and there is demanding of statistics and cold hard evidence before you can even start to question the man. it's annoying.

greg was probably better than a lot of us remember. and the stats help. my perception of him was never as a "really good" duke player. a lot of stats will suggest otherwise. except tourney success. doesn't mean i want to excommunicate the guy, but i just don't think he was a strong point of any of the teams.

he wasn't a pure point guard. he was better as a two guard anyway. so i'm not sure why that's a big argument. we would have fared better with paulus shooting his 40%+ from three than handling the ball.

anyway. for some reason you can't make emotional comments about gp on this board without a scientific readout, even though we can all agree that battier and LT are way better than theirs stats suggest.

[roywhite]

dukefan4life people get uppity about gp. it is what it is.

the stats don't lie. i said a few less than laudatory things about gp in my day as well and there was a strong mama bear reaction. and there is demanding of statistics and cold hard evidence before you can even start to question the man. it's annoying.

greg was probably better than a lot of us remember. and the stats help. my perception of him was never as a "really good" duke player. a lot of stats will suggest otherwise. except tourney success. doesn't mean i want to excommunicate the guy, but i just don't think he was a strong point of any of the teams.

he wasn't a pure point guard. he was better as a two guard anyway. so i'm not sure why that's a big argument. we would have fared better with paulus shooting his 40%+ from three than handling the ball.

anyway. for some reason you can't make emotional comments about gp on this board without a scientific readout, even though we can all agree that battier and LT are way better than theirs stats suggest.

Don't want to get stuck on this point, but I'd say there is some difference of opinion between fair-minded Duke fans concerning GP as an offensive player. My own opinion is that he was a pretty good passer and a good outside shooter.

The real shortcoming for Greg, unfortunately, was on the defensive end. He was not able to guard some of the quicker guards that he came up against. Defensive problems changed his role and probably affect our perception even of his offensive abilities.

To return to the topic of KI, I'm very excited about seeing him play for Duke also. Even with his terrific talent, he'll need to work on defense and learn the Duke defense before he'll become an overall great player.

[Dukefan4Life]

I really dont care what stats you put up. I have my opinion like everyone else does. Big papa you can google anything you want but on this site we can give our thirty cents how we please. I was not putting greg down i think he was an average point guard at best and that is not a bad mouthing him.

[chrisheery]

Guess I will weigh in.

GP was not a below average passer. He was a very good passer. The problem was he did not have the ability to penetrate and create. Because of that, he did not put pressure on the defense and did not create passing lanes on his own, which a point guard needs to do to be effective. So, it is not fair to say he is a below average passer when he passed effectively when surrounded by superior talent. When he was expected to be the best player on the team, he may not have been the best passer, but that was out of necessity. I was not and I guess still am not a fervent Paulus supporter, just trying to give my opinion on the topic from as fair a point of view as I can muster.

[Big Pappa]

I really dont care what stats you put up. I have my opinion like everyone else does. Big papa you can google anything you want but on this site we can give our thirty cents how we please. I was not putting greg down i think he was an average point guard at best and that is not a bad mouthing him.

First bold part - Your disregard for statistics to form opinions shows immaturity.

Second bold part - Calling someone average at best (especially one of our own) is the definition of putting him down.

[ElSid]

Guess I will weigh in.

GP was not a below average passer. He was a very good passer. The problem was he did not have the ability to penetrate and create. Because of that, he did not put pressure on the defense and did not create passing lanes on his own, which a point guard needs to do to be effective. So, it is not fair to say he is a below average passer when he passed effectively when surrounded by superior talent. When he was expected to be the best player on the team, he may not have been the best passer, but that was out of necessity. I was not and I guess still am not a fervent Paulus supporter, just trying to give my opinion on the topic from as fair a point of view as I can muster.

This is fair. Meanwhile, Kyrie is the opposite, from all indications. This will be, without question, the first time in six odd years that we've had someone with anywhere close to the ability of Kyrie Irving to break down a defense, create a slick dish out of nothing, or finish imaginatively at the rim. He should make all the players better. And for that, I'm very excited.

[ElSid]

First bold part - Your disregard for statistics to form opinions shows immaturity.

Second bold part - Calling someone average at best (especially one of our own) is the definition of putting him down.

Stats ain't everything pops. Most of us watched these games, too, and draw some opinion from what we saw. Also, stats can be stated selectively or without context to confirm or question a statement.

Or sometimes they don't have stats for ways people affect a game. We've all read the no-stats all star article. We don't all have the time or mind to write that kind of article, but we may feel a certain something about a player. And we should be allowed to at least post this opinion even if it's not overwhelmingly positive and even if that player played at Duke.

Don't bludgeon with stats.

[Dukefan4Life]

I dont think calling someone average at best is putting anyone down. Just because we are duke fans does not mean we all have to put on blinders and always give what other people want they want to hear. I never said greg was bad, in fact i loved his heart and he could bust those three pointers!

[Big Pappa]

Most of us watched these games, too, and draw some opinion from what we saw. Also, stats can be stated selectively or without context to confirm or question a statement.

Or sometimes they don't have stats for ways people affect a game. We've all read the no-stats all star article. We don't all have the time or mind to write that kind of article, but we may feel a certain something about a player. And we should be allowed to at least post this opinion even if it's not overwhelmingly positive and even if that player played at Duke.

Fair point about forming an opinion from watching, it is something we all do. As I have said before (just read above) I have a problem with someone posting an opinion with no evidence at all. If you think GP was a bad passer and none of the stats back you up then at least post some type of evidence. It is not productive to simply post random opinions without any type of evidence.

the stats don't lie.

You have changed your opinion rather quickly.

I dont think calling someone average at best is putting anyone down. Just because we are duke fans does not mean we all have to put on blinders and always give what other people want they want to hear. I never said greg was bad, in fact i loved his heart and he could bust those three pointers!

I loved his heart and he was a great shooter but I still disagree that calling someone "average at best" is not putting them down. If you were a doctor, lawyer, teacher, or any other profession and I told you that you were "average at best" I think you would be offended.

[Newton_14]

I dont think calling someone average at best is putting anyone down. Just because we are duke fans does not mean we all have to put on blinders and always give what other people want they want to hear. I never said greg was bad, in fact i loved his heart and he could bust those three pointers!

Sorry but you guys are totally missing the point. This is not even about Greg Paulus. It is about the rules of this board. This board is run differently. There is a sticky thread at the top that everyone is supposed to read prior to posting. Two of the key points in the rules are listed below. It is great to welcome and discuss Kyrie but there is no need to throw previous point guards under the bus in doing so. And for the record, the most recent PG we had only led us to a National Championship.


From the Rules Thread:
Destructively Negative - It means the opposite of constructive criticism, especially in the context of Duke players and coaches. Unacceptable: Duke Player X is abysmal, a complete liability, and couldn’t rebound if he was the only player on the court. Acceptable: Duke Player X really needs to work on his rebounding and ability to block out over the summer. Includes rumor mongering.

Repetitive Rant - Repeatedly posting the same general diatribe or manifesto, over and over again, showing little or no regard to warnings, replies, or general interest in said view. To put it another way, when you've made your point to the point that other posters could repeat it nearly word-for-word, you've gone too far. Make your point and move on. This particular infraction almost always will be preceded by a warning.

[ElSid]

You have changed your opinion rather quickly.

the point was stats are limited. but no need to belabor the point. in fact, it's illegal on this board. fine.

[hedevil]

So, where's the latest Kyrie video?