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  1. #41
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    Lightbulb Actually

    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    Domestic abuse is fairly widespread, widely ignored by observers, and commonly rationalized/minimized afterwards by the participants. This horrendous situation appears to be perfect for raising awareness and perhaps contributing to a sea change in how people perceive violence against women (and sometimes violence against men).
    Actually, when the research uses scientific polling techniques,not self-selecting data generation like calls to police (men do not typically call the police to report domestic abuse against themselves), the abuse incidents are initiated about 50% by each sex. I learned this fact after providing input for a governor's initiative in the area. Anectdotal ( not scientifically sampled) data that has unfortunately created a false image is based on the reportage that women call police 9 times more frequently than men to report "domestic abuse". It is indeed a serious problem for both sexes.
    Blueprofessor

  2. #42
    I've read a few posts on here admonishing the friends of the victim and the accused for not intervening in an alleged abusive relationship. I can completely understand the frustration, and I know if it were my friend I would beg and plea for her to leave him. But I thought I should just say a couple things about this.

    1. None of us knows what measures their friends took to stop the abuse. The very fact that their relationship was considered "ended" could indicate that their friends had indeed gotten involved, and that they thought the abuse had ended with the relationship.

    2. No one can force a domestic abuse victim from leaving their abuser. One of the biggest frustrations I've experienced as a medical student is when I learned that in very few specific cases can a doctor report domestic abuse to the authorities (at least according to North Carolina law). The truth is that adults have free will and that they may simply not be ready to leave the situation, whether for emotional, financial, or safety reasons.

    No one is to blame for this tragedy except for the accused. Not the victim, not their friends, but the accused. This is a terrible tragedy, and I can only pray for the victim's family and friends, the family of the accused, and for the justice system to do what is right.

  3. #43
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    Hypothetically speaking about VA law (from a VA prosecutor)

    FWIW, I'm not employed in Charlottesville, or any of the surrounding counties. I know only what I've read in the media; the reports and the search warrant and affidavit.

    First degree murder requires premeditation, a specific intent to kill. That specific intent can exist only for a second prior to the killing, and can be inferred from the actions of the defendant. More likely in this case is first degree felony murder, death in the course of an enumerated felony (in this case, burglary). In VA, burglary in this context is the breaking and entering a building with the intent to commit a crime. The act of opening a shut but unlocked door is sufficient for "breaking" (as would be kicking open a locked door). The crime of assault and battery would be sufficient as a predicate crime. The crime of larceny would be sufficient, if it could be shown that the entry was for the purpose of stealing, say, a laptop.

    Manslaughter, voluntary and involuntary, are "common-law" crimes, which means they aren't defined in the Code. Voluntary manslaughter is a rare charge; the paradigm is a person who comes home and finds his spouse in bed with someone else, and kills the spouse or the lover. Involuntary manslaughter is defined in case law as the killing of a person contrary to the intention of the parties, during the defendant's performance of an unlawful (not felonious) act or the improper performance of a lawful act.

    A lot will depend on what the autopsy says, but at this moment, I would much rather be the prosecutor than the defense attorney.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    These are some stunning allegations. "People" actually knew that Huguely had been "roughing" up Love?
    I guess we'll find out eventually what, if anything, was done to help protect her or to discipline him but it truly is shocking that his abusive behavior was apparently well known at the school. Wow.
    My thoughts exactly. If people knew he was beating this girl up on a regular basis why in the hell didn't someone intervene? Who if anyone stood up for this young lady? I am sorry but I have zero tolerance for men who beat up women.

    I agree he will unlikely be charged with Murder 1 but disagree that "there is zero chance" that he intended to kill her. We don't know that. Only that kid and God know what his intent was.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    It looks like simple assault and battery are considered misdemeanors in VA, as is assault and battery against a household member (which seems to be the domestic violence provision). http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504...04000000000000
    So I don't know that it would be a felony homicide unless there is some other provision that covers this behavior.
    Don't forget about the merger doctrine.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Here are some relevant provisions from the Virginia Code:



    In my quick perusal of the code, I did not see definitions of murder or voluntary manslaughter (based on the admissions reported, I can't see how this could be involuntary manslaughter). I haven't had cause to look up the definition of these terms since taking the bar exam, so I will let other chime in if they want.

    If the suggestions of abuse are true, but the facts do not otherwise support a murder charge, I wonder if the (soon to be) defendant was committing another felony that would support felony homicide?
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    It looks like simple assault and battery are considered misdemeanors in VA, as is assault and battery against a household member (which seems to be the domestic violence provision). http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504...04000000000000
    So I don't know that it would be a felony homicide unless there is some other provision that covers this behavior.

    I'm guessing I took the bar exam even longer ago than you did, but your conclusion that this couldn't be involuntary manslaughter seems right. I think that is more for, say, when someone runs a red light and kills someone in the resulting accident (though even those situations can be considered voluntary if the person is driving with reckless disregard, I think).
    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    Don't forget about the merger doctrine.
    I was about to point this out but then decided against it because my criminal law final exam is next week.

    But as was stated before, if this was burglary to steal the computer, it's not under the merger doctrine.
    <devildeac> anyone playing drinking games by now?
    7:49:36<Wander> drink every qb run?
    7:49:38<loran16> umm, drink every time asack rushes?
    7:49:38<wolfybeard> @devildeac: drink when Asack runs a keeper
    7:49:39 PM<CB&B> any time zack runs, drink

    Carolina Delenda Est

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    I guess the UVA Honor Code, and perhaps most other such codes, only apply to academic matters.

    There is no duty to report assault/battery? Not even among students, such as what you might expect in a code of conduct?
    I hold degrees from both UVA and Duke, and I'm not aware of any "code" at either school that requires a student to report allegations of domestic abuse. In fact, I'm not aware that students are required (by the universities) to report anything.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueprofessor View Post
    Actually, when the research uses scientific polling techniques,not self-selecting data generation like calls to police (men do not typically call the police to report domestic abuse against themselves), the abuse incidents are initiated about 50% by each sex. I learned this fact after providing input for a governor's initiative in the area. Anectdotal ( not scientifically sampled) data that has unfortunately created a false image is based on the reportage that women call police 9 times more frequently than men to report "domestic abuse". It is indeed a serious problem for both sexes.
    Blueprofessor
    I remember after the tiger woods incident last November there were a lot of articles about women abusing men after it was alleged that Elin busted up his face with a golf club. It's very difficult to find a study that can conclusively say that abuse incidents are 50-50 between men and women, and those that do usually equate a single slap with pushing a woman down the stairs. While certainly some women do abuse men, the heavy majority of domestic abuse cases are caused by men.

    http://www.nomas.org/node/107
    Trinity '09

  9. #49
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    Apr 2010
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    Arlington, VA

    Teams to Play On

    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    I think I may have read somewhere else that this report hasn't been confirmed by the university--there seemed to be some question about whether the teams had made this decision yet.
    Updating my own comment, JohnB is right--AD Littlepage issued a statement today saying that both teams will continue their seasons.
    Last edited by -jk; 05-05-2010 at 10:32 AM. Reason: fix quote tag

  10. #50
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    nyc
    "Roughing up", as my friend put it, doesn't have to mean "beating". It may have been just forcefulness in public, some pushing or leading around by the arm. It could have pertained to the type of language he used toward her. Who knows. I think everyone jumped to the most extreme conclusion about what this could mean when I wrote it. I haven't gone back to my friend for clarification because he's in a bad state about it. Maybe someday I'll ask him to clarify.

    I think it's unfair to suggest that friends are somehow morally questionable for not reporting anything. These situations are very complex and have to get pretty extreme before the people that know you best decide to intervene, especially in something as serious as a domestic abuse charge. Who knows, maybe they did try to talk to him about it and he just didn't listen. I bet most people figured they could just get through this semester and after graduation, go their separate ways.

    Admittedly my generalizations about sports are too broad. I basically said so when I typed them. I'm not going to go around profiling lacrosse players or football players. I was a (terrible) football player. Some of the lacrosse players I met at Duke were/are nice. Some were nice my freshman year and by senior year, had become completely unrecognizable to me, in a bad way. Who you are friends with matters a lot, at all ages.

    I do suspect that the more violent the sport, the more likely the players who participate in it are prone to violence, in general. Can't cite any facts or stats, so it remains complete conjecture. It's not something I act on, but if I had to guess, based on the stories about NCAA football and the NFL every year, I'd bet that it's likely true to some extent. Basketball has its issues as well. Maybe it's not sports but the sense of entitlement that society bestows on sports figures?

    And there are probably certain programs that have worse cultures than others. I don't think it's unfair to say that lacrosse should examine the cultures of its top programs following two high profile cases like this.

    As for greek culture, yes. There is some deplorable activity going on there, too. Duke seems to be trying to deal with that. But they also seemed to turn a blind eye to really bad behavior by the lacrosse team when I was there. So...there was a double standard if you were an athlete. No surprise, I guess, but it's still disappointing.

    Also when I said this kid was "out of control", no one really jumped on that statement. To me, this clearly meant that he was abusing alcohol. The news today confirms this. His friends should have intervened to stop him from getting violently drunk, but no one mentioned that. This may be the biggest ingredient of all in the tragedy. But who intervenes with a senior in college when he has an alcohol problem? No one. It's an endemic problem. I and my friends are as guilty as anyone when it comes to this. Saw some kids go Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde on lots of alcohol and didn't do much to stop it. Still don't, when I see it. Am I morally culpable if something bad happens to this guy down the road? Slippery slope.

  11. #51
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    ninety minutes west of Cameron

    FWIW

    In Virginia, ANY unwanted touching can be the basis for an assault and battery charge. So a grabbing by the arm, by the clothing, etc., is sufficient.

    Also, to clear up one other thing, assault and battery on a family or household member doesn't fit in this case. The parties would have to live together "as husband and wife" or have lived together in the same fashion in the previous twelve months, or have a child in common. Being boyfriend-girlfriend, or ex-boyfriend and girlfriend, isn't enough. Since the case is currently set in General District Court, they must not have lived together in the past year, or it would have been set in Juvenile and Domestic Relations Court.

    Having started my career as a prosecutor in JDR, I can tell you that it is extremely difficult for the abused in these situations to come forward, and those that do often recant.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlindevildog91 View Post
    Since the case is currently set in General District Court, they must not have lived together in the past year, or it would have been set in Juvenile and Domestic Relations Court.

    Having started my career as a prosecutor in JDR, I can tell you that it is extremely difficult for the abused in these situations to come forward, and those that do often recant.

    This case is not 'set' in GDCt, is it? Doesn't GDCt simply handle the preliminary matters for matters that end up in Circuit Court ... where this will end up? That's why in GDCt yesterday.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    This case is not 'set' in GDCt, is it? Doesn't GDCt simply handle the preliminary matters for matters that end up in Circuit Court ... where this will end up? That's why in GDCt yesterday.
    A good question. The case will end up in Circuit Court, but the preliminary hearing is in General District Court. Had the parties met the definition of family or household member, the preliminary would have been in Juvenile and Domestic Relations.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElSid View Post
    "Roughing up", as my friend put it, doesn't have to mean "beating". It may have been just forcefulness in public, some pushing or leading around by the arm. It could have pertained to the type of language he used toward her. Who knows. I think everyone jumped to the most extreme conclusion about what this could mean when I wrote it. I haven't gone back to my friend for clarification because he's in a bad state about it. Maybe someday I'll ask him to clarify.

    I think it's unfair to suggest that friends are somehow morally questionable for not reporting anything. These situations are very complex and have to get pretty extreme before the people that know you best decide to intervene, especially in something as serious as a domestic abuse charge. Who knows, maybe they did try to talk to him about it and he just didn't listen. I bet most people figured they could just get through this semester and after graduation, go their separate ways.

    Admittedly my generalizations about sports are too broad. I basically said so when I typed them. I'm not going to go around profiling lacrosse players or football players. I was a (terrible) football player. Some of the lacrosse players I met at Duke were/are nice. Some were nice my freshman year and by senior year, had become completely unrecognizable to me, in a bad way. Who you are friends with matters a lot, at all ages.

    I do suspect that the more violent the sport, the more likely the players who participate in it are prone to violence, in general. Can't cite any facts or stats, so it remains complete conjecture. It's not something I act on, but if I had to guess, based on the stories about NCAA football and the NFL every year, I'd bet that it's likely true to some extent. Basketball has its issues as well. Maybe it's not sports but the sense of entitlement that society bestows on sports figures?

    And there are probably certain programs that have worse cultures than others. I don't think it's unfair to say that lacrosse should examine the cultures of its top programs following two high profile cases like this.

    As for greek culture, yes. There is some deplorable activity going on there, too. Duke seems to be trying to deal with that. But they also seemed to turn a blind eye to really bad behavior by the lacrosse team when I was there. So...there was a double standard if you were an athlete. No surprise, I guess, but it's still disappointing.

    Also when I said this kid was "out of control", no one really jumped on that statement. To me, this clearly meant that he was abusing alcohol. The news today confirms this. His friends should have intervened to stop him from getting violently drunk, but no one mentioned that. This may be the biggest ingredient of all in the tragedy. But who intervenes with a senior in college when he has an alcohol problem? No one. It's an endemic problem. I and my friends are as guilty as anyone when it comes to this. Saw some kids go Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde on lots of alcohol and didn't do much to stop it. Still don't, when I see it. Am I morally culpable if something bad happens to this guy down the road? Slippery slope.
    You make some good points here. I agree that athletes are allowed to develop an extreme sense of entitlement in our culture, and the preppier kids in lacrosse are layering that on top of the general sense of entitlement many rich and upper middle class kids tend to have.

    But the point you make at the end seems like the heart of the matter--getting blackout drunk is a widely accepted part of college social life these days, especially (but certainly not only) at schools with a Greek system. For some kids, this may just result in some terrible hangovers; for others, it may lead to really dangerous or inappropriate behavior with terrible consequences and/or alcoholism. To intervene requires being able to make a confident judgment about where someone is on that spectrum, being willing to risk a hostile (maybe violent) reaction from the person you are dealing with, and being willing to go totally against the grain of the prevailing social order--and with no real assurance that your intervention will help. Maybe someone would do this for one of their best friends, but it's a lot to take on.

    Until we can figure out a way to change the cultural context, so that chronically abusing alcohol and getting out of control seems much more "abnormal" than it does now--and I have no good ideas for how to do that-- it's hard to be very judgmental about kids not stepping in to deal with this problem or report it to authorities. And you are right, of course--we don't actually know that they didn't.

  15. #55
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    Lightbulb Scientific, random polling reveals truths

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazieDUMB View Post
    I remember after the tiger woods incident last November there were a lot of articles about women abusing men after it was alleged that Elin busted up his face with a golf club. It's very difficult to find a study that can conclusively say that abuse incidents are 50-50 between men and women, and those that do usually equate a single slap with pushing a woman down the stairs. While certainly some women do abuse men, the heavy majority of domestic abuse cases are caused by men.

    http://www.nomas.org/node/107
    Unfortunately, citing NOMAS for such information is akin to referencing Chavez for free and fair elections. NOMAS ,if you review its mission, appears to be suffering from the "experimenter effect", the tendency to bias any data, accurate or not, in the direction of that person's or organization's intensely -held beliefs. NOMAS possesses intensely-held beliefs on steroids.

    Now, it is important to consult reputable studies such as the 1985 National Family Violence Survey, sponsored by the National Institute of Mental Health, archived at Cornell (see link to complete study), which was based on a Louis Harris scientific , national poll. The findings were that women and men were abusing each other in about equal numbers. Men typically do more damage, but the numbers of attacks were the same.

    Cornell link:http://www.ndacan.cornell.edu/NDACAN...Fs/055user.pdf

    There are other studies indicating the same results, including research published in The Journal of Marriage and Family.

    Moreover,The Journal for the National Association of Social Workers found in a 1986 study among dating teenagers that girls were more frequently violent than boys.

    Some PCers do not appreciate scientific studies because they level the incidents of abuse between women and men. As Harris or Gallup would explain, self-reporting (calling the local t.v. station's call-in poll of the day) is not reliable; scientific, random sampling is. Also, see the book and studies by R. L. McNeeley ( a professor at the School of Social Welfare at the University of Wisconsin) titled The Truth About Domestic Violence: A Falsely Framed Issue and Susan Steinmetz ( director at the Indiana U-Purdue U Family Research Institute), whose book The Battered Husband Syndrome led to threats of harm from certain radical groups (the experimenter effect at extremes).
    None of this exonerates any abuser of any sex.
    If we are to effectively combat such abuse , we must be honest in exposing distortions . The truth often leads to solutions.

    Best wishes---Blueprofessor

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by blueprofessor View Post
    Unfortunately, citing NOMAS for such information is akin to referencing Chavez for free and fair elections. NOMAS ,if you review its mission, appears to be suffering from the "experimenter effect", the tendency to bias any data, accurate or not, in the direction of that person's or organization's intensely -held beliefs. NOMAS possesses intensely-held beliefs on steroids.

    Now, it is important to consult reputable studies such as the 1985 National Family Violence Survey, sponsored by the National Institute of Mental Health, archived at Cornell (see link to complete study), which was based on a Louis Harris scientific , national poll. The findings were that women and men were abusing each other in about equal numbers. Men typically do more damage, but the numbers of attacks were the same.

    Cornell link:http://www.ndacan.cornell.edu/NDACAN...Fs/055user.pdf

    There are other studies indicating the same results, including research published in The Journal of Marriage and Family.

    Moreover,The Journal for the National Association of Social Workers found in a 1986 study among dating teenagers that girls were more frequently violent than boys.

    Some PCers do not appreciate scientific studies because they level the incidents of abuse between women and men. As Harris or Gallup would explain, self-reporting (calling the local t.v. station's call-in poll of the day) is not reliable; scientific, random sampling is. Also, see the book and studies by R. L. McNeeley ( a professor at the School of Social Welfare at the University of Wisconsin) titled The Truth About Domestic Violence: A Falsely Framed Issue and Susan Steinmetz ( director at the Indiana U-Purdue U Family Research Institute), whose book The Battered Husband Syndrome led to threats of harm from certain radical groups (the experimenter effect at extremes).
    None of this exonerates any abuser of any sex.
    If we are to effectively combat such abuse , we must be honest in exposing distortions . The truth often leads to solutions.

    Best wishes---Blueprofessor
    Hmm, that's odd. Here's a more recent publication, by the National Criminal Justice Reference Service. They found that 85% of domestic violence in the late 90s was against women (link: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ipv.pdf).

    Considering 1/3 of women are abused at some point in their lifetimes and 1/3-1/5 of all women are sexually assaulted at some point, it seems highly unlikely (impossible, really) to me that men and women are abused at an equivalent rate...unless nagging is considered abuse, in which case I could see that

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by coldriver10 View Post
    Hmm, that's odd. Here's a more recent publication, by the National Criminal Justice Reference Service. They found that 85% of domestic violence in the late 90s was against women (link: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ipv.pdf).

    Considering 1/3 of women are abused at some point in their lifetimes and 1/3-1/5 of all women are sexually assaulted at some point, it seems highly unlikely (impossible, really) to me that men and women are abused at an equivalent rate...unless nagging is considered abuse, in which case I could see that
    The statistics you cite are from a DOJ report published in 2000, based on statistics from the late 1990s. The statistics from the 2010 version of that Special Report reflect what appears to be a dramatic improvement in the situation:

    "The rate of intimate partner violence against females declined 53% between 1993 and 2008, from 9.4 victimizations per 1,000 females age 12 or older to 4.3 per 1,000. Against males, the rate declined 54%, from 1.8 victimizations per 1,000 males age 12 or older to 0.8 per 1,000."

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=971

    Just out of curiosity, what is the source of your statement that "1/3 of women are abused at some point in their lifetimes and 1/3-1/5 of all women are sexually assaulted at some point," and how do you (or the source) define "abuse"? I understand and appreciate the problem of what might be characterized broadly as "relationship abuse," but those figures certainly seem higher than common experience--and the DOJ statistics--would support.

  18. #58
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    Lightbulb Processed , not total acts

    Quote Originally Posted by coldriver10 View Post
    Hmm, that's odd. Here's a more recent publication, by the National Criminal Justice Reference Service. They found that 85% of domestic violence in the late 90s was against women (link: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ipv.pdf).

    Considering 1/3 of women are abused at some point in their lifetimes and 1/3-1/5 of all women are sexually assaulted at some point, it seems highly unlikely (impossible, really) to me that men and women are abused at an equivalent rate...unless nagging is considered abuse, in which case I could see that
    Not odd at all. The Bureau of Justice statistics only include processed cases. This is not a national, random scientific sample seeking all abusive acts. Instead,there is self-inclusion here (recall the 9 to 1 ratio of female calls to the police).


    Here is the way the BoJ collects data (remember,only processed cases): "Examines the processing of domestic violence (DV) and non-domestic violence (non-DV) cases filed in 15 large urban counties."

    Best regards--Blueprofessor

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    Don't forget about the merger doctrine.
    How is it applied in VA, if at all? Also, how would it apply to this case? Are you suggesting that, if you can get someone on felony homicide, you don't convict him of the underlying felony as well? Seem to be separate crimes, since felony homicide is on the books. But I'm neither a criminal lawyer nor licensed in VA. Also, if someone is convicted of felony homicide, I'm not sure that the underlying felony really matters.

    Of course, it sounds like they're going after this guy for first degree murder, which seems entirely appropriate.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    How is it applied in VA, if at all? Also, how would it apply to this case? Are you suggesting that, if you can get someone on felony homicide, you don't convict him of the underlying felony as well? Seem to be separate crimes, since felony homicide is on the books. But I'm neither a criminal lawyer nor licensed in VA. Also, if someone is convicted of felony homicide, I'm not sure that the underlying felony really matters.

    Of course, it sounds like they're going after this guy for first degree murder, which seems entirely appropriate.
    Errr the Merger Doctrine is that you can't get someone for felony murder if the underlying felony is an element of the crime of murder. So what the underlying felony is really does matter.

    So for example, if the felony is assault and battery...you can't make that into felony murder, because that's part of the crime of murder.

    So in essence, if they can't use the felony murder rule to get around the intent requirement of 1st degree murder.
    <devildeac> anyone playing drinking games by now?
    7:49:36<Wander> drink every qb run?
    7:49:38<loran16> umm, drink every time asack rushes?
    7:49:38<wolfybeard> @devildeac: drink when Asack runs a keeper
    7:49:39 PM<CB&B> any time zack runs, drink

    Carolina Delenda Est

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