Wear Twins to Transfer and other UNC woes

[oldnavy]

As much as I enjoy adding to the Heels' frustration, I don't agree with this ACC rule. To summarize, Noreen and Thornton had signed letters of intent to play at Boston College and Clemson, respectively. After both schools changed head coaches, the players asked for and were granted releases from their LOI's. However, under ACC rules they cannot receive a scholarship from another ACC team without sitting out a year.

It seems unfair that coaches can leave whenever they want but players remain bound to their schools. The coach is a huge part of why a player chooses a school, and IMO there should be an exception made that when a coach leaves, a recruit should be fully released from his LOI and allowed to sign anywhere. I might even take it a step farther and say that when a coach leaves, ALL of the team's players are allowed to transfer without sitting out a year, EXCEPT to the team where the coach goes (to prevent hiring a coach just to get a player).

In the eyes of the NCAA and ACC, the recruit signs a LOI with the school, not a coach. I agree with you that it seems unfair that coaches can bounce from school to school, but the kids have to stay committed or sit out a year. It does make it all that more important for a kid to be as sure as possible that the situation is stable. Not always easy to predict, that is why I see no reason for some of these kids to sign LOI's.

[Big Pappa]

In the eyes of the NCAA and ACC, the recruit signs a LOI with the school, not a coach. I agree with you that it seems unfair that coaches can bounce from school to school, but the kids have to stay committed or sit out a year. It does make it all that more important for a kid to be as sure as possible that the situation is stable. Not always easy to predict, that is why I see no reason for some of these kids to sign LOI's.

Great point, and I think that is something that gives Duke a recruiting edge year in and year out. We probably have the most stable situation in college basketball.

[SupaDave]

Great point, and I think that is something that gives Duke a recruiting edge year in and year out. We probably have the most stable situation in college basketball.

That all depends on WHY you are playing basketball. We have to really be careful making statements like that. Kids choose a variety of reasons for schools. The Ivy league provides very stable situations for kids who play sports with an emphasis on education. Not much coach turnover there.

Stable can also mean being a stone's throw away from your home. Stable is Tom Izzo who has quite the package to offer - as well as Bill Self. Calipari has created a stability of one and done predictability. Kids don't plan on being in college 20 years so stability in itself is a luxury but definitely not a necessity. LOTS of kids have stayed with the school after the coach LEFT. Just depends on the cards you're playing.

[kong123]

And in 5 to 10 years, whenever Coach K steps down, will that stability remain? As much as you hate Roy, he is a coach that will remain stable over the years until he retires. Sure, we had a bad year this year, but it was after a championship. It really depends who takes over after K retires. Coach Gut hurt the program with the lack of recruiting and Doh hurt the school because of the instability created while he was the coach. Some of which wasn't his fault.

Who will take over for K? None of the coaches in the Duke family have really made a name for themselves the way that Roy did at Kansas. There is still time, but now is the time for a coach like that to emerge. Established success is key to keeping Duke at the top. As we found out after Dean left, UNC is no better than status of our coach. If our coach isn't respected and thought of as one of the best, then neither are we.

[Duvall]

And in 5 to 10 years, whenever Coach K steps down, will that stability remain? As much as you hate Roy, he is a coach that will remain stable over the years until he retires.

Well yes. But Roy Williams is only three years younger than Mike Krzyzewski.

Krzyzewski will coach until he chooses to retire. That's more stability than all but a handful of major programs can offer.

[roywhite]

Well yes. But Roy Williams is only three years younger than Mike Krzyzewski.

Krzyzewski will coach until he chooses to retire. That's more stability than all but a handful of major programs can offer.

I think Coach K will be difficult to replace, perhaps more difficult to replace than Roy Williams at UNC. But that's mostly just an opinion, a number of years away, and a topic for other threads.

In the meantime, Coach K has the Duke program at a very high level. It's a great thing to watch and enjoy.

[BD80]

... As much as you hate Roy, he is a coach that will remain stable over the years until he retires. ...

You mean the guy who definitively stated: "I don't give a sh!t about carolina?"

... If our coach isn't respected and thought of as one of the best, then neither are we.

Agreed. Then neither is carolina.

[Big Pappa]

That all depends on WHY you are playing basketball. We have to really be careful making statements like that. Kids choose a variety of reasons for schools. The Ivy league provides very stable situations for kids who play sports with an emphasis on education. Not much coach turnover there.

I was talking about Coach stability and to be fair the Ivy League isn't a fair comparison for the same level of recruits. Without scholarships it is extremely hard for them to compete. The exception being Cornell this year, but that situation doesn't work in your arguement because Steve Donahue had great success and then left for BC.

[Starter]

And in 5 to 10 years, whenever Coach K steps down, will that stability remain? As much as you hate Roy, he is a coach that will remain stable over the years until he retires. Sure, we had a bad year this year, but it was after a championship. It really depends who takes over after K retires.

Rather than attempt to decipher when Krzyzewski might not be coaching Duke anymore -- because he's totally trending down, right? -- I'd rather think about the National Title he won for my school like 45 days ago. And if I do want to look ahead, I can consider Duke's probable No. 1 preseason ranking next year, and the fact that they're quite firmly in the mix for potentially the No. 1 player in the country for 2011.

I won't start to worry about Krzyzewski until he can't figure out how to coach his team, throws his players under the bus, misses the tournament, pathetically starts insisting that his life is worse than a tragic natural disaster, and has two of his four big men transfer. Championship a year ago or not, is that what you call stable?

Honestly though, that's what you want to hang your hat on? That Krzyzewski, who looks fully re-energized, might step down in 10 years or whatever? My dude, you're reachin'. I'd say take some time off from this, or at least focus mainly on watching videos of prospective UNC big men. It's a long way until October, and I fear you'd just drive yourself up a wall, as your coach seems to have a tendency to do.

[calvindog]

Holes talk about K as if he's 100 years older than Ol' Roy instead of the actual 3.5 years he is. And the holes also talk about how Duke will be in such dire straits when K does retire (which may very possibly be AFTER Ol' Roy retires) -- but neglect to acknowledge that the holes will be in the same situation. Or did they forget their first two attempts to replace Smith? And then there's the "coaching family" argument. As if the holes have such a plethora of talent waiting in the wings. The fact is, who knows who Duke will hire when K finally retires? Who's to say it will be someone who played at Duke? And then the holes talk about how only K has had great success at Duke, that Duke's basketball success begins and ends with K while the holes have many great coaches in their history. Are the holes aware that three different coaches took Duke teams to Final Fours?

If I were a hole I'd be more concerned about the fact that my so-called great coach flopped this year despite having more talent than any team in the NCAA. And that the way he handled adversity left a bit to be desired. And that we just won a National Championship and will be preseason #1 while the holes are in free fall. That's what I'd be worrying about if I were a hole, not wondering who Duke will hire in 10 years.

[WiJoe]

Holes talk about K as if he's 100 years older than Ol' Roy instead of the actual 3.5 years he is. And the holes also talk about how Duke will be in such dire straits when K does retire (which may very possibly be AFTER Ol' Roy retires) -- but neglect to acknowledge that the holes will be in the same situation. Or did they forget their first two attempts to replace Smith? And then there's the "coaching family" argument. As if the holes have such a plethora of talent waiting in the wings. The fact is, who knows who Duke will hire when K finally retires? Who's to say it will be someone who played at Duke? And then the holes talk about how only K has had great success at Duke, that Duke's basketball success begins and ends with K while the holes have many great coaches in their history. Are the holes aware that three different coaches took Duke teams to Final Fours?

If I were a hole I'd be more concerned about the fact that my so-called great coach flopped this year despite having more talent than any team in the NCAA. And that the way he handled adversity left a bit to be desired. And that we just won a National Championship and will be preseason #1 while the holes are in free fall. That's what I'd be worrying about if I were a hole, not wondering who Duke will hire in 10 years.

Coulda been a lot stronger, but BRAVO!!!!!!!

[kong123]

My point wasn't to take a shot at Duke. I was discussing "stability" and how it can suddenly disappear. Back when Dean left, we had no idea the instability that would follow. While Duke may have had success before Coach K, he is the face of Duke, past, present, and future. When he is gone, whenever that is, you will face the same issues that UNC face in the late 90's. Roy may very well leave before Coach K, if so, we will go through hell again. That was my point. Not to downgrade a championship. Not to bring up a negative in order to downplay a positive. I was on topic.

[oldnavy]

Rather than attempt to decipher when Krzyzewski might not be coaching Duke anymore -- because he's totally trending down, right? -- I'd rather think about the National Title he won for my school like 45 days ago. And if I do want to look ahead, I can consider Duke's probable No. 1 preseason ranking next year, and the fact that they're quite firmly in the mix for potentially the No. 1 player in the country for 2011.

I won't start to worry about Krzyzewski until he can't figure out how to coach his team, throws his players under the bus, misses the tournament, pathetically starts insisting that his life is worse than a tragic natural disaster, and has two of his four big men transfer. Championship a year ago or not, is that what you call stable?

Honestly though, that's what you want to hang your hat on? That Krzyzewski, who looks fully re-energized, might step down in 10 years or whatever? My dude, you're reachin'. I'd say take some time off from this, or at least focus mainly on watching videos of prospective UNC big men. It's a long way until October, and I fear you'd just drive yourself up a wall, as your coach seems to have a tendency to do.

Good points Starter. Besides Ol Roy looks closer to retirement these days than K does. If UNC does not have a moderate to very successful year, the heat will start to turn up for Roy, and he has proven that having talent does not insure that he will have a good year so standby. Plus, I cannot name one UNC disciple who would be a candidate to replace Roy. In fact, who is out there from UNC is still coaching? Buzz? Lebo? Neither of these guys have had tremendous success (disclaimer, I have met Jeff Lebo and he is a very nice dude!). I would say that when it comes time for K to retire we will be in a much better position to hire from within if that is the direction we decide to go. I am of the opinion that K will hand select his successor much like Dean did, but he and Duke will do a much better job with the transition than UNC did... that was one ugly mess....

[oldnavy]

My point wasn't to take a shot at Duke. I was discussing "stability" and how it can suddenly disappear. Back when Dean left, we had no idea the instability that would follow. While Duke may have had success before Coach K, he is the face of Duke, past, present, and future. When he is gone, whenever that is, you will face the same issues that UNC face in the late 90's. Roy may very well leave before Coach K, if so, we will go through hell again. That was my point. Not to downgrade a championship. Not to bring up a negative in order to downplay a positive. I was on topic.

I agree with you Kong123. It will be difficult to replace one of the best if not the best coaches in college basketball history. Not sure we will go through "hell", that depends on how the situation is handled. I feel Duke will do a better job in the transition than UNC did when Dean left. The one thing that you are overlooking is who was at the center of the mess when Dean left? ROY! His decision to stay at KU surprised some, and when he actually stated that he didn't give a bleep about UNC, he left Dean with few choices. Gut got the job for being a loyal friend and sidekick to Dean, but he in no way was the long term solution. When shunned by Roy in such a public way, you guys picked up Doh. Had Doh, used a little more discretion, AND if he had a little more support from the university (the two go hand in hand IMO), he may have been a successful coach there. When Ol Roy decided to come back, well Doh got tossed. Not UNC's finest moment. Now Roy is the man and will be center stage in selecting his replacement, and I would not feel very good about that if I were a UNC fan looking down the road.

[kong123]

Maybe, maybe not. If Duke can learn from UNC's mistakes- then so can UNC. Who knows what will happen. At this point, there isn't a clear air-apparent for either program. Had Roy left Kansas the 1st time to go to UNC, we may have never missed a beat. But, he didn't. I understood his reluctance to leave a program that he had led to an extremely high level. When he turned UNC down, I was a little bummed, but I was pleased with the Doh hire. I thought he would bring in a lot of youth and energy to the basketball program. He did recruit the talent that won the 2005 NC. People were just not happy with him and the program ate itself from the inside out. It was poison.

Maybe when K retires he will not be spurned by whomever he taps as his replacement. No need to bash me. I am simply having a conversation.

[77devil]

I would say that when it comes time for K to retire we will be in a much better position to hire from within if that is the direction we decide to go. I am of the opinion that K will hand select his successor much like Dean did, but he and Duke will do a much better job with the transition than UNC did... that was one ugly mess....

One need only look at Duke's own experience replacing Bubas to appreciate how bad it can get by hiring from within. Coach K's replacement should be the outcome of a national search with Coach having considerable input.

[CLT Devil]

Maybe, maybe not. If Duke can learn from UNC's mistakes- then so can UNC. Who knows what will happen. At this point, there isn't a clear air-apparent for either program. Had Roy left Kansas the 1st time to go to UNC, we may have never missed a beat. But, he didn't. I understood his reluctance to leave a program that he had led to an extremely high level. When he turned UNC down, I was a little bummed, but I was pleased with the Doh hire. I thought he would bring in a lot of youth and energy to the basketball program. He did recruit the talent that won the 2005 NC. People were just not happy with him and the program ate itself from the inside out. It was poison.

Maybe when K retires he will not be spurned by whomever he taps as his replacement. No need to bash me. I am simply having a conversation.

I love it. Heels fans (Kong You're not the only one) are talking about what will happen when K retires, in May, 1 year removed from a Championship year...don't you guys have two Natty Champ Trophies in the last few years? Hey, at least we have the UNC debacle as a case study as how NOT to go about choosing a coach. K is a machine, in 10 years you might be saying 'when K retires in 10 years...' - don't count the man out.

I know UNC's fanbase very well, and if Roy strings together a couple more bad years, and more importantly if Duke wins another title, you could see some changes in Tar Heel Country. Not saying it will happen, but the UNC faithful never surprise me. Insufferable, until they decide that it's time to make a change and then...crash and burn, Mav.

[CrazieDUMB]

I like that the topic of replacing K falls under UNC woes. While I feel like this won't be something to worry about for at least 5 years, when the time does come Duke will be in an exceptional position. Duke has some of the deepest pockets and possibly the highest college basketball profile in the country right now. Sure there's the issue of finding kids that don't compromise on grades, but I don't think that would keep too many people from getting one of the most envied coaching jobs in the world.

[sagegrouse]

One need only look at Duke's own experience replacing Bubas to appreciate how bad it can get by hiring from within. Coach K's replacement should be the outcome of a national search with Coach having considerable input.

We now have considerable experience in college hoops in seeing legends replaced. It looks like there are three postures the retiring coach can take, and none of them are very good:

1. The Dean Smith, John Thompson approach: Retire at the beginning or in the middle of the season, so that your employer has no choice but to give the job and a multi-year contract (with your encouragement) to your long-time bench assistant, Bill Guthridge or Craig Esherick.

2. The John Wooden approach: Stay out of it except for some behind-the-scenes advice. This resulted in Gene Bartow, a good guy but not a long-term solution and neither was his successor, Larry Brown.

3. The Vic Bubas approach: Endorse a candidate. This is not entirely fair because Bucky Waters had had success at WVa and was the logical successor. (Conflict alert: the Buckster was my PE coach back when basketball assistants had to do that sort of thing.) OTOH Rupp endorsed his long-time assistant, Joe B. Hall, who had some success.

The fact is, there is no mystery why it is hard to replace a legend. In fact, it is a bit of a tautology: These guys are "legends" and almost impossible to replace.

In the last 25 years Duke has been to 11 FFs, won four NCs, and won the ACC 12 times. In our "down decade," Duke still won more games than any other team. Uh... who wants to compete against that record?

sagegrouse
'The Dean Smith approach is the worst and, in fact, borders on being evil.'

[UrinalCake]

Part of what led to Doherty being hired is that UNC refused to hire a coach that was not within the Carolina "family." This kind of limited their options once Roy, Larry Brown, and George Karl all said no. I suspect that when Coach K does ultimately step down, Duke will first try to hire one of his protegees, but it remains to be seen whether the school would be wiling to hire an outsider if it comes to that.

kong, I agree that Coach K won't be around forever and at some point Duke fans will have to endure some uncertainty about the program. For now though, I can't think of a coach that is less likely to leave than Coach K. With regards to recruiting, the most unstable coach in the country right now is Calipari, and he's also bringing in the best recruiting classes, so I can't really say that being unstable hurts recruiting. At least not in terms of bringing in one-and-done talent.