Wear Twins to Transfer and other UNC woes

[Billy Dat]

RE: MJ & Recruiting
This will be true for some, but the most important guy in college basketball recruiting right now, outside of the actual coaches, is William "Worldwide Wes" Wesley. I would argue that today's players have moved on from Jordan, his last slice of prime was when these kids were 6 years old, and onto Lebron. Lebron loves his "Uncle Wes" and Uncle Wes, like some kind of alien with the ability to be at all places at all times, knows everyone and gets into players orbits at precisely the time that they become big time prospects.

RE: Phil Jackson
Agree that Jackson helped MJ a lot, but I fully disagree with the assertion that Jackson made MJ. MJ made Phil. There is no doubt. MJ kept the team in line. Phil's success was tied to his ability to communicate with Jordan.

RE: Coaches drive the pro game
I really disagree with this, too. Coaches have very, very little control over pro players. The good players listen to their coaches...sometimes. Once they hit the league, it is up to them to put in the work year round to be all they can be. The coach can try and give them a roadmap, but they are far down the totem pole after each players collection of gurus and their overall entourage. In the NBA, talent makes coaches. I think the other coaches on that list would have won 8 titles, or close to it, with the talent Phil Jackson had in Chicago and LA. Combing through K's USA Basketball collected quotes and reminiscence, I think he feels the same way.

[JDev]

I dunno, I think this is going to dwindle sooner than you think. You have to remember, these kids are only 18, and Jordan's last (Jordanesque) season was in 1998. The last time Jordan won a title, these kids were only 6. While certainly everyone will know how dominant Jordan was, and his legacy will live through Youtube, it's going to make a big difference knowing that these kids didn't grow up watching him. Feel old yet?

Reading your quote really make me wonder. It's such a shame Grant Hill's career was marred by so many injuries, and don't even get me started on JWill's potential. What could have been...

I think one of the things that have given MJ's draw such shelf life, and what will continue to do so, is the bulk of the current superstars that kids idolize do not have a college that they are so closely associated with, and in most cases, no college at all. Guys like Lebron, Kode, and Dwight Howard, who are the league's current stars, never attended college and thusly don't have that aspect of appeal to prospective college basketball players. Kobe is on record saying that had he of gone to college, he would have gone to Duke. If that had happened Duke would definitely be drawing from that association. But, alas, it never did.

[OldPhiKap]

I think one of the things that have given MJ's draw such shelf life, and what will continue to do so, is the bulk of the current superstars that kids idolize do not have a college that they are so closely associated with, and in most cases, no college at all. Guys like Lebron, Kode, and Dwight Howard, who are the league's current stars, never attended college and thusly don't have that aspect of appeal to prospective college basketball players. Kobe is on record saying that had he of gone to college, he would have gone to Duke. If that had happened Duke would definitely be drawing from that association. But, alas, it never did.

Very true.


They all, however, have only one college coach who leads them to gold medals in the Olympics . . . .

Personally, I think that's the best recruiting we can have. You can't pay for that kind of exposure -- especially when the players all say how great it is to play for him.

[slower]

RE: MJ & Recruiting
This will be true for some, but the most important guy in college basketball recruiting right now, outside of the actual coaches, is William "Worldwide Wes" Wesley. I would argue that today's players have moved on from Jordan, his last slice of prime was when these kids were 6 years old, and onto Lebron. Lebron loves his "Uncle Wes" and Uncle Wes, like some kind of alien with the ability to be at all places at all times, knows everyone and gets into players orbits at precisely the time that they become big time prospects.

RE: Phil Jackson
Agree that Jackson helped MJ a lot, but I fully disagree with the assertion that Jackson made MJ. MJ made Phil. There is no doubt. MJ kept the team in line. Phil's success was tied to his ability to communicate with Jordan.

RE: Coaches drive the pro game
I really disagree with this, too. Coaches have very, very little control over pro players. The good players listen to their coaches...sometimes. Once they hit the league, it is up to them to put in the work year round to be all they can be. The coach can try and give them a roadmap, but they are far down the totem pole after each players collection of gurus and their overall entourage. In the NBA, talent makes coaches. I think the other coaches on that list would have won 8 titles, or close to it, with the talent Phil Jackson had in Chicago and LA. Combing through K's USA Basketball collected quotes and reminiscence, I think he feels the same way.

Grand slam! You are money on all points listed.

[greybeard]

RE: MJ & Recruiting
RE: Phil Jackson
Agree that Jackson helped MJ a lot, but I fully disagree with the assertion that Jackson made MJ. MJ made Phil. There is no doubt. MJ kept the team in line. Phil's success was tied to his ability to communicate with Jordan.

There is zero evidence that, independent of Phil, MJ could coalesce white blood cells around a cut. Abe Pollin hated him. He chased away anybody on the Wizards who had a modicum of talent and appreciation for the team game who would not make room, and plenty of it, for MJ the player. Think Rip Hamilton here and ask him about MJ's team building.

See how long Larry Brown lasts with MJ. Brown was all smiles after the Cats lost game 4. He reported about how he had never had a team that shot as many 3s in a game as the Bobcats did that 4th game, and that he was fine when Stephen Jackson threw up a three on the last shot, and several before that, even while the opponent had been in the penalty for the last 7 minutes of the game. You believe that. Who did Jackson sit next to on the bench? That's right, you can say it, MJ.

Phil has won more than a few championships since MJ--almost won one in Chicago without him as a matter of fact--and won his last one after he exorcisized the MJ-like ego out of Kobe by starting off last season with a team that could really play sans Kobe and making it clear that the Lakers were ready to pull the triger on moving him. Kobe straightened up and started playing ball.

MJ's success as a pro was tied to Championships and the Championships were won by Chicago, lead by a coach, not a player. MJ did real good under Collins, now didn't he.

Of course "Phil's succes was tied to his ability to communicate with MJ." An unexceptionable point if there ever was one. However, it was more than "communicate," it was the ability of Phil to get MJ to grasp on a viseral level the Kipling poem that he recited to the Bulls all the time that was the key, a poem that ends: "The strength of the pack is in the wolf and the strength of the wolf is in the pack." Getting MJ to feel that his potency, his true potency lied in his inseparable connection to his teammates throughout, especially in the most challenging moments of the game, was the key, along with having an ingenious offensive system that made available as a potential play maker depending on how the defense presented. If MJ did not completely buy into the paridigm that you give it to the available playmaker, he'd be another Oscar Robertson, a guy with a lot of records and no rings, rather than the icon he became.

[Bluedevil114]

Check out this picture of the other guy they're going after:

http://minnesota.scout.com/a.z?s=176...%2F761208.html

Bwahahahahahaha

Airowe,

This truely made my day. My wife had emergency back surgery and I have not had much sleep but when I opened this up I could not stop laughing. I still have tears in my eyes as I write this because it was so hilarious. Of course I woke my wife up but it was worth it. GO DUKE!!

[JDev]

Very true.


They all, however, have only one college coach who leads them to gold medals in the Olympics . . . .

Personally, I think that's the best recruiting we can have. You can't pay for that kind of exposure -- especially when the players all say how great it is to play for him.

It can't be a bad thing that K is the only coach on the planet, at any level, that can get glowing endorsements from Kobe, Lebron, D-Wade, Carmelo, Dwight, etc.

[CDu]

MJ's success as a pro was tied to Championships and the Championships were won by Chicago, lead by a coach, not a player. MJ did real good under Collins, now didn't he.

Of course "Phil's succes was tied to his ability to communicate with MJ." An unexceptionable point if there ever was one. However, it was more than "communicate," it was the ability of Phil to get MJ to grasp on a viseral level the Kipling poem that he recited to the Bulls all the time that was the key, a poem that ends: "The strength of the pack is in the wolf and the strength of the wolf is in the pack." Getting MJ to feel that his potency, his true potency lied in his inseparable connection to his teammates throughout, especially in the most challenging moments of the game, was the key, along with having an ingenious offensive system that made available as a potential play maker depending on how the defense presented. If MJ did not completely buy into the paridigm that you give it to the available playmaker, he'd be another Oscar Robertson, a guy with a lot of records and no rings, rather than the icon he became.

I'd say that Jordan's success was partly due to Jackson, partly due to his own personal development, and partly due to the fact that his younger teammates (especially Pippen and Grant) were finally ready to compete with Detroit, and in part due to the fact that the Pistons team was on the downhill side anyway. To give Jackson full credit is faulty, in my opinion. Similarly, to say that Jordan completely made Jackson as a coach is faulty. Jackson certainly deserves some of the credit, but there was a LOT going on during that time period that resulted in the Bulls becoming a dynasty.

[UrinalCake]

Getting back on topic (sort of)... a few people have hinted around this so I'm just going to come out and say it: the Wear twins' situation is somewhat reminiscent of Taylor King's. Highly touted players make early commitment, perhaps before fully assessing all of their options. They arrive on campus and find the level of play to be a bit above them, and aren't getting the playing time they want. Decide to return home and find another program that provides a better fit.

While many have pointed out that the Wears would have gotten more playing time this year with Deon and Davis gone, it is unlikely that they would have been starters or gotten significant minutes. Maybe they would see 10-15 minutes a game. So I think they just decided they'd rather go to a weaker school and get more minutes. I guess another theory is that they originally felt that would only be role players, but then they performed better than expected, which caused them to think they could be featured players at another school.

[roywhite]

Getting back on topic (sort of)... a few people have hinted around this so I'm just going to come out and say it: the Wear twins' situation is somewhat reminiscent of Taylor King's. Highly touted players make early commitment, perhaps before fully assessing all of their options. They arrive on campus and find the level of play to be a bit above them, and aren't getting the playing time they want. Decide to return home and find another program that provides a better fit.

While many have pointed out that the Wears would have gotten more playing time this year with Deon and Davis gone, it is unlikely that they would have been starters or gotten significant minutes. Maybe they would see 10-15 minutes a game. So I think they just decided they'd rather go to a weaker school and get more minutes. I guess another theory is that they originally felt that would only be role players, but then they performed better than expected, which caused them to think they could be featured players at another school.

Could well be that you are right.

I think the more interesting lesson is some reflection on problems in Roy's recruiting:

He has trended toward earlier commitments, when the players are finishing their sophomore year or before their junior year. There's a risk that some of these players do not develop as expected and are surpassed as prospects by the time they are seniors. Example: taking Kendall Marshall, rated highly as a sophomore, versus trying to recruit Kyrie Irving who developed a little later and rose in the rankings.

Taking the Wears involved some risk also. They are a long way from home, and take up two roster/scholarship spots. If they were similar players but not related, there would be less chance of losing both. It was a package deal coming in and now a package deal on the way out.

Roy has kept a roster close to the scholarship limit, which limits his flexibility. He has given scholaships to in-state kids like Watts and Graves, who have not been high level contributors.

My overall impression is that Roy has taken shortcuts in his recruiting...selects his targets early, goes for a strong close, and then tends to other business or more time on the golf course. It may be understandable human nature to shy away from the pursuit of 16 and 17 year old kids, but his choices have not worked out well recently.

[30scheyer]

Gotta love the Greensboro News and Record sports headline today:

Wears' departure leaves UNC short

[CDu]

Could well be that you are right.

I think the more interesting lesson is some reflection on problems in Roy's recruiting:

He has trended toward earlier commitments, when the players are finishing their sophomore year or before their junior year. There's a risk that some of these players do not develop as expected and are surpassed as prospects by the time they are seniors. Example: taking Kendall Marshall, rated highly as a sophomore, versus trying to recruit Kyrie Irving who developed a little later and rose in the rankings.

Taking the Wears involved some risk also. They are a long way from home, and take up two roster/scholarship spots. If they were similar players but not related, there would be less chance of losing both. It was a package deal coming in and now a package deal on the way out.

Roy has kept a roster close to the scholarship limit, which limits his flexibility. He has given scholaships to in-state kids like Watts and Graves, who have not been high level contributors.

My overall impression is that Roy has taken shortcuts in his recruiting...selects his targets early, goes for a strong close, and then tends to other business or more time on the golf course. It may be understandable human nature to shy away from the pursuit of 16 and 17 year old kids, but his choices have not worked out well recently.

I think it's just as likely to be evidence of Williams finally missing on a recruiting class. He'd had really good fortune in landing very good recruits with Williams, Hansbrough/Green, and Lawson/Ellington/Wright. It was time for a miss or two.

Last year, he Davis, Zeller, and Drew. While Davis contributed as a third big on the championship team, he didn't become the star many expected this year. And Drew and Zeller (for perhaps different reasons) haven't progressed as quickly as some had hoped. And this year, he got Henson/Strickland/Wears/McDonald, none of whom were ready to star as freshmen.

I'd say it remains to be seen whether or not Williams's recruiting strategy is flawed. While it appears that Marshall may not be the home run PG he'd hoped, you never know until you see them on the floor. Deron Williams was considered too slow to be elite, and he turned out quite good at the college (and pro) level. You just never know.

[UrinalCake]

He has trended toward earlier commitments, when the players are finishing their sophomore year or before their junior year. There's a risk that some of these players do not develop as expected and are surpassed as prospects by the time they are seniors.

There's definitely a risk of offering early, and both Duke and UNC have been burned by this in the past. On the other hand, it often seems like players commit to a school because they were the first ones to show interest, and if you don't give an offer then someone else will. So it's a tough gamble. I do agree that using up all of your scholarships hinders flexibility, preventing you from offering a guy who blooms late.

[Billy Dat]

greybeard - we can agree to disagree. In making my statement, I probably gave Jordan too much credit.

If we both read this article, you'd say it proved your point and I'd say it proved mine. The truth is probably a litle of both:
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordan...on_090827.html

Here's the passage I'd cite:

"Cartwright was a co-captain along with Jordan in the first three championships, and while Jordan was the force that drove the team, Cartwright was instrumental in keeping his teammates on the same page.

“Practices were hard and the team played hard,” said Jackson. “It was more about how to get everyone feeling like they were contributing in the way they could contribute. Cartwright was probably more important in that role, because he could play off of Michael’s drive and get guys to buy into that drive that was going to push the team ahead.

“The job of the coach a lot of times is trying to motivate, Jackson added. “When you don’t have to motivate a team to play with the push that they already have internally, then the rest of it seems to fall into place fairly easily.”

[Big Pappa]

greybeard - we can agree to disagree. In making my statement, I probably gave Jordan too much credit.

If we both read this article, you'd say it proved your point and I'd say it proved mine. The truth is probably a litle of both:
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordan...on_090827.html

Here's the passage I'd cite:

"Cartwright was a co-captain along with Jordan in the first three championships, and while Jordan was the force that drove the team, Cartwright was instrumental in keeping his teammates on the same page.

“Practices were hard and the team played hard,” said Jackson. “It was more about how to get everyone feeling like they were contributing in the way they could contribute. Cartwright was probably more important in that role, because he could play off of Michael’s drive and get guys to buy into that drive that was going to push the team ahead.

“The job of the coach a lot of times is trying to motivate, Jackson added. “When you don’t have to motivate a team to play with the push that they already have internally, then the rest of it seems to fall into place fairly easily.”

I don't think you can use these quotes by Phil to make your point. He isn't going to say, "Well yeah MJ is MJ because of me. I kept him together and taught him how to maximize his abilities."

Phil is a classy and an extremely spiritual guy that isn't going to take the credit. He would rather give it out to his players.

One quick point MJ never won without Phil. Phil won 4 more times without MJ, including 3 in a row immediately after won his 2nd through 4th in Chicago. An unmatched 6 NBA Championships in a row for Phil.

[CDu]

One quick point MJ never won without Phil. Phil won 4 more times without MJ, including 3 in a row immediately after won his 2nd through 4th in Chicago. An unmatched 6 NBA Championships in a row for Phil.

The counterargument is that Phil cherry-picked the perfect situation to return to the NBA with the Shaq-led Lakers just as Kobe was coming into his own. Jackson left the Bulls, sat out a couple of years, then came back right when the Lakers were ripe for a dynasty run. One could easily argue that those three championships were more player-driven than coach-driven. And then, when Shaq left, the Lakers took a nose-dive due to lost talent. When they got the highly-underrated Gasol in that gift of a trade with Memphis, suddenly they became juggernauts again.

I think the reality is more accurately that both players helped each other. Phil Jackson didn't make Jordan, and Jordan didn't make Jackson. Each benefited from the other, and each benefited from fortuitous circumstances (Pippen and Grant emerging, and the Pistons getting worse).

[cato]

As opposed to a Protestant or Jewish school?

I can see how a private/parochial school mifght differ form a public school, but what is about Catholic education that would differ in terms of the ethics of loyalty from other faith-based schools?

I am at a complete loss as to how you read anything into my comment about other schools or other faiths. If anything was implied, it was that Mater Dei's transformation into a sports powerhouse may have come at the expense of its purported purpose.

To be clear, I am not aware of anything about Catholic schools that would differ from other faith-based schools in terms of instilling important ethics such as perseverence. I am aware of how the dominant culture in SoCal (and likely elsewhere) would undermine such a lesson.

[oldnavy]

I am going to make a prediction right now. NCSU finishes ahead of UNC in the ACC next year! Didn't someone already mention that?

Life is good!!

[allenmurray]

I am at a complete loss as to how you read anything into my comment about other schools or other faiths. If anything was implied, it was that Mater Dei's transformation into a sports powerhouse may have come at the expense of its purported purpose.

To be clear, I am not aware of anything about Catholic schools that would differ from other faith-based schools in terms of instilling important ethics such as perseverence. I am aware of how the dominant culture in SoCal (and likely elsewhere) would undermine such a lesson.

I didn't mean to offend.

I didn't read anything into it, I commented on/questioned what you wrote, because I was curious. You didn't write private school or religious school, you wrote Catholic school. You were not general in your choice of words, you were specific. That is why I asked asked the question - I was trying to get clarification on whether you saw someting specific to Catholic schools that was in contrast to public schools, or if you meant that since Catholic Schools are a sub-set of priavte schools, they were fundamentally different from publics chools.

I certainly agree that the culture at a private school (whether secular or religious) can be different from a public school.

[TheBrianZoubekExperience]

The guy who made Mj who he is is Phil Jackson. No Phil, MJ is a footnote on the history of the NBA; another guy who could score the ball and dunk spectacularly.

While I love Phil Jackson, I think you're giving him way too much credit for Jordan's success. Saying Jordan would have been just a footnote is too strong.As someone already pointed out, Jordan - though not an NBA champion before Phil - was already one of the top players in the game by the time Phil arrived. I don't think Jordan gets 6 championships without Phil but he would have been a hall of fame player and probably (though we can't know) would have gotten a championship without Phil. Phil is one of the best coaches in league history but he also benefited from having great players as much as his players benefited from having great coaches. He's done it with two franchises (and arguably three different teams since his Lakers with Kobe/Shaq are fairly different from last year with Kobe/Gasol) but he's been blessed with top level talent along the way. I give him a lot of credit for his work with developing Kobe for sure but he was blessed to have teams with established stars for 9 of his titles. Jordan and Shaq were already at the top of the league when they linked up with Phil.

I give a lot of credit to Phil but he's been as blessed as any coach by having great talent to work with. Lot of credit for helping Jordan to three titles but I think Jordan would have been more than a "footnote" without Phil.