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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX

    Further Conference Expansion Talk

    Feel free to merge with old thread, but it's in the dust, I think. But since the main page has posted several links on it, I thought I'd kick up another discussion.

    The "4 conferences of 16" talk is heating up. What this is really going to do is create 8 defacto 8 team sub-conferences/divisions, but each pair of sub-conferences will be tied together through a championship game/tournament/etc. Think of it like 4 mini MLBs prior to expansion to 3 divisions.

    The scary talk is the potential for these 64 schools (basically, the BCS schools and Notre Dame, kicking out Cincy, and one of the triumverate of USF, Baylor and Iowa State) creating a tournament to compete with/replace the NCAA basketball tourney in much the same way the NCAA once took on the NIT.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    The "4 conferences of 16" talk is heating up. What this is really going to do is create 8 defacto 8 team sub-conferences/divisions, but each pair of sub-conferences will be tied together through a championship game/tournament/etc.
    ACC North: Boston College, Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, Miami, Florida State.
    ACC South: Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Wake Forest, Duke, Clemson, Georgia Tech.

    I could live with that.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hudson Valley

    the"real ACC"

    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    ACC North: Boston College, Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, Miami, Florida State.
    ACC South: Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Wake Forest, Duke, Clemson, Georgia Tech.

    I could live with that.
    I know your intent is to put the old "real" ACC in one division. But politically, I think you will need put Virginia and Virginia Tech together.

    so probably Virginia and Maryland go with the north and Miami and Florida State with the south.

    Although I like your divisions better.

    Jim

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    unsubstantiated claims ftw
    usa

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Raleigh
    I was never a fan of expansion for FBall.

    If we do it, we do it to strengthen our core competency which is BBall.
    Add Syracuse, UConn, Louisville and Georgetown.

    Overload the conf in BBall heavy schools so that we are THE ONLY East coast option for a TV network carrying an interesting game.

  6. #6

    Georgetown no match

    Georgetown doesn't fit due to no football. Try WVU.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    unsubstantiated claims ftw
    Well the commissioners and ADs are giving sound bites so it's not completely unsubstantiated. The Big East is scared enough to bring in Paul Tagliabue. Things are on the table at the BCS meetings this week (regardless of the spin they are giving ). What those details are, I am not sure.

    If the Big Ten just raids the Big East, maybe that's all that happens.

    But like DBR says, the Big XII is key. If you pull any piece out of the Big XII Jenga tower, it's all falling down. There are no teams attractive enough to add to replace a Mizzou or Colorado should they leave for the Big Ten or Pac Tec respectively. Don't tell me TCU or Boise St. or the Utah schools. Boise St.'s total student grad rate is worse than most FBS football teams. They are not getting in the BCS. TCU brings nothing new to the Big XII table except a decent football team who can't sell out its home stadium. Utah or BYU would be a half-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. replacement in terms of academics and overall athletics to CU.

    If Mizzou or CU leave. Texas will be hot on their heels and can pretty much pick between the Big Ten or Pac Ten. Texas and the Big Ten are saying now they aren't interested in each other, but that's like Mike Shanahan saying he is going to take a QB with the 5th pick tonight. It's posturing. If Mizzou or CU leave, Texas will be gone within 12 months.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by wva_iron_duke View Post
    Georgetown doesn't fit due to no football. Try WVU.
    WVU doesn't fit due to fit. Then again, neither does Louisville.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    The scary talk is the potential for these 64 schools (basically, the BCS schools and Notre Dame, kicking out Cincy, and one of the triumverate of USF, Baylor and Iowa State) creating a tournament to compete with/replace the NCAA basketball tourney in much the same way the NCAA once took on the NIT.
    Then why not do the same with college football and create a NIT college football tournament. I know this would likely never happen but I am sure they can get the money from sponsors to support it and TV would certainly follow.

  10. #10

    What about . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    Well the commissioners and ADs are giving sound bites so it's not completely unsubstantiated. The Big East is scared enough to bring in Paul Tagliabue. Things are on the table at the BCS meetings this week (regardless of the spin they are giving ). What those details are, I am not sure.

    If the Big Ten just raids the Big East, maybe that's all that happens.

    But like DBR says, the Big XII is key. If you pull any piece out of the Big XII Jenga tower, it's all falling down. There are no teams attractive enough to add to replace a Mizzou or Colorado should they leave for the Big Ten or Pac Tec respectively. Don't tell me TCU or Boise St. or the Utah schools. Boise St.'s total student grad rate is worse than most FBS football teams. They are not getting in the BCS. TCU brings nothing new to the Big XII table except a decent football team who can't sell out its home stadium. Utah or BYU would be a half-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. replacement in terms of academics and overall athletics to CU.

    If Mizzou or CU leave. Texas will be hot on their heels and can pretty much pick between the Big Ten or Pac Ten. Texas and the Big Ten are saying now they aren't interested in each other, but that's like Mike Shanahan saying he is going to take a QB with the 5th pick tonight. It's posturing. If Mizzou or CU leave, Texas will be gone within 12 months.
    The SEC is rumbling about not being left behind. Do they make a play to move from 12 to 16 by adding Texas/TAMU/Oklahoma/Oklahoma State?

    Or do they try to raid the ACC and lock up Florida with Miami and FSU?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    I've posted this before, but here's how I see it playing out. There are some teams you could switch (GaTech/Clemson/FSU could swap out b/w ACC/SEC, for instance), but generally I think 4 16 team conferences would look something like the below

    (To anyone that wants to post "why are we wasting our brain cells on this." Can it. It's purely fun speculation, which I enjoy. Not saying this is definitely going to happen, just makes sense to me if full on realignment becomes reality).

    East Coast Snobs:
    South: Georgia Tech, Clemson, Duke, UNC, NC State, Wake, UVA, Va Tech
    Norht: West Virginia, Miami, MD, BC, UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers, West Virginia, Pitt

    Note: MD gets in the Big East like it always wanted, Miami screwed regionally, but it used to be like this, right?

    Monocloud Conference:
    East: Penn St., Indiana, Notre Dame, Michigan, Michigan St., Ohio St., Minnesota, Purdue
    West: Illinois, Northwestern, Iowa, Wisconsin, Iowa St, Kansas, Kansas St., Missouri

    Note: I switched Minnesota and Wisconsin so West wasn't quite so awful in football.

    Rednecks and Okies:
    East: Florida, Florida St., Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Louisiville
    West: Alabama, Auburn, Ole Miss Akbars, Miss St., LSU, Arkansas, OU, Okie Light.

    Note: OU and OSU are as tied together as A&M and Texas. OU and Texas don't have to be in same conference to continue RRS.

    Tex-Pacific Goliath:
    Far West: Washington, WSU, Oregon Oreg St., Cal, Stanford, USC, UCLA
    Old West: Arizona, Az St., Colorado, Nebraska, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Baylor

    Note: Large geographic swath for sure. Aggies on the sunset strip. Hahahahahaha

    Bye-bye Cincy and USF. Being commuter schools with weak alumni support will torpedo these 2 over Baylor and Iowa St. Each of which, while historically weak in football, have strong alumni support networks.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    If the ACC is going to expand, go all the way to 16.

    Is there a way to do this and maintain some rational geographic divisions?

    Right now, the ACC has three distinct geographic divisions.

    The South is Clemson, GT, FSU and Miami.

    Then there's the Big Four.

    North of the Big Four are Virginia, VT, Maryland and BC.

    We all want to keep the Big Four together.

    So, you add four teams north of NC and have a N/S split, with the NC teams in the South. If the BE is cannabilzed, this might be possible, especially if the ACC can go outside the BE for someone like Temple.

    Or, you add four teams south of NC and put the Big Four in the northern part of the N/S split. This would be tougher. South Florida and Central Florida would work but where do the other two come from? Other Florida schools? Can South Carolina be lured from the SEC? Not likely. ECU would love an invite from the ACC but they would have to be decoupled from the Big Four and besides, the ACC already owns North Carolina.

    So, going north makes more sense, especially if the ACC can get into big media markets like NYC or Philly. Then again, those are pro cities.

    Then again, again, if the SEC raids the ACC, the ACC would have to work just to get back to twelve. BTW, I've always thought Vanderbilt belonged more in the ACC then the SEC. Trade? For whom?

    I'm not sure any of this comes to pass. Then again, I still miss the SWC, in the same way that I miss that rabid dog down the street.

    So, we'll see.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago 1995 View Post
    The SEC is rumbling about not being left behind. Do they make a play to move from 12 to 16 by adding Texas/TAMU/Oklahoma/Oklahoma State?

    Or do they try to raid the ACC and lock up Florida with Miami and FSU?
    I won't say that Texas would NEVER go to the SEC, but Texas would ALMOST never go to the SEC. It would be a last resort (much like the Big XII was). Texas is despised by the other Big XII schools because part of the deal for coming in 15 years ago was that the academic standards had to be raised. No more Prop 40-whatever students. The SEC doesn't have the same entry requirements that Texas has required of the Big XII. Other than geography, Texas is a much better fit with the ACC in terms of institutions than the SEC.

    And even though the geography is worse, Texas would much rather raid CA recruiting or Midwest recruiting and risk reciprocal in state recruiting losses than it would have those same battles with the LSUs, Bamas, Floridas of the world.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Why don't we just pick up four PAC-10 teams, and change our name to the "Both Coasts Conference?"

    Great for football, bad for basketball. Just like the last time.

  15. #15
    The problem that I see with expansion for football is that it doesn't help the problem, it worsens it, I feel. Going to 4 16-team conferences with a 4-team playoff doesn't help the issue if people think that 2 teams from the same conference are still the best team. For football, you have an 8-game conference schedule where you play 7 games within your division of the conference and a rotating partner that might as well not be in the same conference for all intents and purposes. For basketball, you get the type of schedule bastardization that the Big East does, with woefully unbalanced schedules. The bottom line is that for basketball, this is far, far worse (which I think would cause the majority of the ACC to want to stay - we're a basketball league who has slowly strengthening football, not a football league with great basketball) and even though the NCAAT is the bottom line, it still would be shocking to see the ACC expand or get raided by the SEC.

    My guess is that the Pac-10 and Big Ten destroy the Big East and Big XII (Pitt, Rutgers, Mizzou to Big Ten, Colorado to Pac 10, maybe Notre Dame to the Big Ten), leaving the pieces on the ground while the SEC and ACC don't pick them all up. The SEC is the top football league. The ACC is the top basketball league. Neither wants to dilute that, unless the SEC can pull Texas somehow, or unless the ACC can pull Syracuse, Georgetown, and some other strong basketball schools with (maybe) I-A football and strong academics. That doesn't seem likely to me.

    Much like the Big Ten, academics are an important consideration for the ACC. We're not going to take Louisville or West Virginia or UConn. If we do, it's just not the ACC anymore.
    Trinity '11
    Duke University Marching Band 07-11

  16. #16

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    "We're not going to take Louisville or West Virginia or UConn. If we do, it's just not the ACC anymore. "

    Some would say the ACC hasn't been the ACC for some time now. Horses, barn doors and all that.

    Are West Virginia and UConn any further down the academic pecking order than FSU?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Smile Georgetwon Football - 'Hoya Saxa!'

    Quote Originally Posted by wva_iron_duke View Post
    Georgetown doesn't fit due to no football. Try WVU.
    I don't know what Georgetown's long-range plans are, but in the past twenty years it has moved from club football to Div III NCAA football to Div I-AA.

    Others are probably more up-to-date than this part-time DC resident.

    sagegrouse

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dillon, Colorado
    How do you keep BYU and Utah out of this discussion? I think you need to cover the SLC area (more than you need, for example, Northwestern) and it's hard to take one and not the other. UNLV too; Vegas is a pretty big metro area now.
    As suburban children we floated at night in swimming pools the temperature of blood. -- Douglas Coupland

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dillon, Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Some would say the ACC hasn't been the ACC for some time now. Horses, barn doors and all that.
    I get your gist, and agree with you in a top-to-bottom sense, but check out how many of the last 10 basketball titles were won by ACC schools. I'm not aware of another 5/10 run by any conference, ever, that didn't involve ucla.
    As suburban children we floated at night in swimming pools the temperature of blood. -- Douglas Coupland

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