The Rewards and Frustrations of Education

[cf-62]

Heard this from my wife last night. The state of NC is proposing an across the board pay cut for teachers next year of a couple of percentage points. I get that, budget being what it is and all. Not fun, but governments are out of $ and education salaries are probably the single biggest line item on the budget. Keep in mind that they suspended raises last year as well.

Here's where it gets crazy. For the past 20+ years, teachers have been given a 10% raise in pay if they earned a Master's degree in their field, and another 10% if they are certified by the National Boards. Both take a minimum of a year to qualify for, and all expenses are paid out of pocket by the teacher. Average starting salary for a teacher in NC is around $30K/yr. The proposed budget also calls for doing away with these merit based incentives for secondary degrees.

I have a big issue with this. Many of these people went and got these degrees specifically for the pay increase so they could make a halfway decent wage to live on, and have been living on it for 10-20 years. So, now you've given the teacher's an incentive to get a secondary degree/qualification and after they get said certification paid for out of their own pockets, you're going to take it away? I know budget times are tough, but removing incentives for teachers to get better qualified doesn't seem like the best way to do it. In addition, if I'm a highly qualified teacher looking at a 22% pay cut next year, I'm probably not going to be teaching anymore (or at least not in public school), and that only makes the problem worse.

The best part about all this is that when test scores fall in the coming years because of all the budget cuts, we will all point the blame at the people who are to blame for failing our students... the teachers.

A 1 year masters in teaching - at a state school - would cost around $1,000. That would definitely have already been recouped by any teacher that is currently getting the bump.

I don't know how much a national board certification would cost, but hopefully, the amount already paid out would have recouped that.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with Chicken Lady's ideas, but I think that cutting annual bonus salaries is better than dumping 15% of the work force.

[Lord Ash]

No public policy discussion, no public policy discussion!

[Highlander]

A 1 year masters in teaching - at a state school - would cost around $1,000. That would definitely have already been recouped by any teacher that is currently getting the bump.

I don't know how much a national board certification would cost, but hopefully, the amount already paid out would have recouped that.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with Chicken Lady's ideas, but I think that cutting annual bonus salaries is better than dumping 15% of the work force.

I don't think your figures are accurate. I checked UNCC's website (I am a NC resident and it's the closest state school) and tuition for a full time student was around $2K per semester. To finish a Masters in a year, I would expect you'd also need to attend summer school, so I'd round it off to around $5K in tuition. Throw in another thousand for books and fees, and I think you're getting close.

Now, this assumes that the teacher is attending school full time to get their Masters. If so, they have no income so they're likely accruing another $20K in living expenses for the year (at a minimum). Most that I know go part time, so while they have a full time job to cover the costs, it would take considerably longer than a year to complete the degree. I'd say a minimum of 2 years, and maybe closer to 3, depending on how many classes they can take while working full time.

So we're talking about a 2-3 year investment of time, or a year sabbatical to complete a master's and a cost of $25-30K. That's a fair committment in my mind, and would take 5-10 years to recoup with a 10% bump in pay at a minimum. Plus, the reason many of the teachers did this in the first place was for the base salary increase, not just for the personal satisfaction of having a masters/national boards. Sure, some would still do it if it weren't rewarded like this, but the number of people who did would be far lower.

To be fair, I'm not saying that cutting 15% of the workforce is a better option (all options stink here). I think if you're serious about doing this because it's not of value (per bill gates's point), you should phase it out over time. Otherwise, you're pulling a bait and switch on the teachers. There may be no other options, but if that's the case, I shudder to think what public education will look like if this continues.

At the end of the day, I come back to the statement of "If I were teaching and the state of NC cut my already low pay 22% in a year, would I keep teaching?"

[Jarhead]

No public policy discussion, no public policy discussion!

A public school discussion. A public school discussion. That's what it is.

[cf-62]

I don't think your figures are accurate. I checked UNCC's website (I am a NC resident and it's the closest state school) and tuition for a full time student was around $2K per semester. To finish a Masters in a year, I would expect you'd also need to attend summer school, so I'd round it off to around $5K in tuition. Throw in another thousand for books and fees, and I think you're getting close.

Now, this assumes that the teacher is attending school full time to get their Masters. If so, they have no income so they're likely accruing another $20K in living expenses for the year (at a minimum). Most that I know go part time, so while they have a full time job to cover the costs, it would take considerably longer than a year to complete the degree. I'd say a minimum of 2 years, and maybe closer to 3, depending on how many classes they can take while working full time.

So we're talking about a 2-3 year investment of time, or a year sabbatical to complete a master's and a cost of $25-30K. That's a fair committment in my mind, and would take 5-10 years to recoup with a 10% bump in pay at a minimum. Plus, the reason many of the teachers did this in the first place was for the base salary increase, not just for the personal satisfaction of having a masters/national boards. Sure, some would still do it if it weren't rewarded like this, but the number of people who did would be far lower.

To be fair, I'm not saying that cutting 15% of the workforce is a better option (all options stink here). I think if you're serious about doing this because it's not of value (per bill gates's point), you should phase it out over time. Otherwise, you're pulling a bait and switch on the teachers. There may be no other options, but if that's the case, I shudder to think what public education will look like if this continues.

At the end of the day, I come back to the statement of "If I were teaching and the state of NC cut my already low pay 22% in a year, would I keep teaching?"

You're right. I used my graduate school tuition at NC State as my guide, forgetting that even small increases add up over (censored) years.

However, your 22% number is incorrect. The actual decrease in pay is ~17%. Not that 17% makes you feel any better.

Avoiding the public policy discussion by merely stating facts, NC is looking for creative ways to make ends meet - including the actions that led to the current lawsuit from Amazon.com. I would hope that if they choose to do this bump reversal, it would be temporary, or even deferred.

[DukieInKansas]

Question on the NC teacher issue. Will the teachers that have actually completed the necessary steps to get the 10% incentive increases lose the pay already received or will there just be no more given to people newly acquiring the advanced degrees and certifications?

[Highlander]

Question on the NC teacher issue. Will the teachers that have actually completed the necessary steps to get the 10% incentive increases lose the pay already received or will there just be no more given to people newly acquiring the advanced degrees and certifications?

My understanding is that the bonuses go away for everyone - those that earned it 10 years ago and those that earned it last month - at the start of next year. However, it doesn't affect wages already paid out over previous years. Essentially, they just axe the program and teachers with a graduate degree fall back into the same payscale as those with only an undergraduate degree.

[Jarhead]

My understanding is that the bonuses go away for everyone - those that earned it 10 years ago and those that earned it last month - at the start of next year. However, it doesn't affect wages already paid out over previous years. Essentially, they just axe the program and teachers with a graduate degree fall back into the same payscale as those with only an undergraduate degree.

As a person with three grandchildren in the North Carolina Public Schools, I see this as the stupidest move ever for the value and success of the school system.

[Lord Ash]

I will say this; if the state doesn't have the money, there isn't a whole lot they can do. It is terrible, obviously, for the teachers, and will hurt education in North Carolina, but there is only so much a politician can do.

ANYWAY... WAYYYYY too close to PPB stuff for my taste, so how about a fun story about education?

So, I am a sixth grade teacher in an elementary school; grades 1-6. I have a reputation of being the mean, scary, yell-y guy, to the point where former students love telling me how badly they didn't want me as a teacher My kids, however, adore me (likely because I ADORE them and they know it) and every time I grumble about tossing one kid out a window or hitting another with a book, they all try to hide their giggles behind their hands; they get the "gruff teacher" game and enjoy it

So; yesterday we started book buddies. I am the only teacher in the school who does it; I just feel that it is so important for my kids to get a chance to practice reading with emotion and fluency (they practice for several days each week before book buddies, trying different intonations and checking their tone and cadence with classmates) but also so they get a chance to be a role model for a younger student and to feel the responsibility that entails.

We went yesterday to meet our book buddies, and before we get there I am in the hall with my kiddos, snapping about what a straight line should look like and threatening them that their behavior better be picture-perfect... and then we go in the room, and I snap into "I'm talking to six year old" mode. "HeLLO, boys and girls of Ms. Cs room! I am Mr. A, and I am SOOO excited to be here today! I am going to read this GRREAT book to you today called "SLEDDING." Okay, Ms. C's class... put your hand WAY up in the air if YOU have ever been sledding!"

Just over the top kiddie talk. And my sixth graders (who were sitting around the outskirt of the room) were DYING trying not to laugh, poking each other, eyes wide, watching their mean old teacher hamming it up for the little kids. When we left (with me saying "Why, thank you SO much, Ms. C's class, for being SUCH great listeners!" with this big dumb grin on my face) and got to the hall my kids literally all lost it, laughing and teasing me and going on and on until I finally snapped something at them about being nice for first graders DOESN'T mean I wasn't sitting there secretly thinking about hitting certain sixth graders with a yardstick. Off we went, back to class, them all grinning and watching me as I growled to myself about sixth graders who don't know how to keep quiet in the hallway... it was a super good time


Oh; and one other bit of news; we've started our state mandated lockdown drills. Everyone in the corner where you cannot be seen, lights off, doors locked, hope the intruder doesn't force his way in, or get a kid in the hall and threaten to kill them if we don't open the door... or that the intruder is actually a kid who will beg to be let in, and then be let in and start shooting. It is fun trying to explain lockdown drills to the kids without worrying them

[Deslok]

For some reason, this year at our school in Seoul, the lockdown/evacuation drill might have a bit more poignancy for the students.

And while I teach high schoolers not 6th graders, I also really enjoy the gruff teacher game with the kids. Of course, I also get to throw things at them, empty water bottles are great attention getters(or will cause you to lose the entire class' attention for the next half hour, one or the other).

[Jim3k]

What?! Chalky, hence puffy, blackboard erasers aren't used for that purpose any more?

When striking a student in the chest, they made a wonderful cloud of chalk dust, plus a nice chalky mess on their shirt. I know I paid attention after being hit.

[gus]

Oh; and one other bit of news; we've started our state mandated lockdown drills. Everyone in the corner where you cannot be seen, lights off, doors locked, hope the intruder doesn't force his way in, or get a kid in the hall and threaten to kill them if we don't open the door... or that the intruder is actually a kid who will beg to be let in, and then be let in and start shooting. It is fun trying to explain lockdown drills to the kids without worrying them

Seriously?

Is this likely to be helpful?

[-jk]

Seriously?

Is this likely to be helpful?

It's just part of today's scholastic landscape. When my son was in 3 YO preschool, they practiced lockdowns and evacuations (they could clear the building in 90 seconds, infants included). They even practiced pulling on gas masks.

Of course, he was enrolled at the US Senate child care center at the time, and they took extra precautions. No signs outside, just a guard booth and card key access.

But even in the local elementary school, they practice lockdowns. Really in earnest after the Beltway Sniper episode a few years ago.

-jk

[weezie]

I also get to throw things at them, empty water bottles are great attention getters(or will cause you to lose the entire class' attention for the next half hour, one or the other).

Wow! That sounds like fun! I'll bet full water bottles would be pretty darned effective, too!
All we ever had was nuns trying to make a room full of girls feel guilty. phooey with that.
Ah, sweet high school memories...

[Deslok]

Lockdown drills came into play following Columbine for most states. You have mandatory fire drills and a lock down drill. In Korea they've had cause to treat things a bit more seriously, back in the 90s there was a particular time where they had gotten to the point of marking the soccer field for where the helicopters would land for pulling the kids out.

We don't have blackboards anymore, so no chalky erasers. For the most part, we use smartboards(projecting onto a touch screen), but have whiteboards to the side and those erasers can be thrown effectively - my first year I was a bit weak on getting the right arc to hit kids in the back row and there was the occasional collateral damage incident. But I prefer the more satisfying plonk of an empty water(or, perhaps more realistically in my case, Coke Zero) bottle on a kids head or desk.

[Lord Ash]

Seriously?

Is this likely to be helpful?

Yep, apparently it is... they say shooters generally don't break into classrooms, but go for easy targets/hallways... so yeah, we lock up and hide, and hope they don't take the time to knock open the door.

[DukieInKansas]

For some reason, this year at our school in Seoul, the lockdown/evacuation drill might have a bit more poignancy for the students.

And while I teach high schoolers not 6th graders, I also really enjoy the gruff teacher game with the kids. Of course, I also get to throw things at them, empty water bottles are great attention getters(or will cause you to lose the entire class' attention for the next half hour, one or the other).

It's only fair that you get to throw things at the students. I remember a year when an Algebra II student threw his textbook at the teacher at that school. You are just practicing much belated paybacks.

[DukieInKansas]

Lockdown drills came into play following Columbine for most states. You have mandatory fire drills and a lock down drill. In Korea they've had cause to treat things a bit more seriously, back in the 90s there was a particular time where they had gotten to the point of marking the soccer field for where the helicopters would land for pulling the kids out.

We don't have blackboards anymore, so no chalky erasers. For the most part, we use smartboards(projecting onto a touch screen), but have whiteboards to the side and those erasers can be thrown effectively - my first year I was a bit weak on getting the right arc to hit kids in the back row and there was the occasional collateral damage incident. But I prefer the more satisfying plonk of an empty water(or, perhaps more realistically in my case, Coke Zero) bottle on a kids head or desk.

Do you know when they started doing the drills? They weren't done in the mid 70's - even when infiltrators came across the border. However, our company compound was on the south side of the river to be on the same side as the airport. I always wondered what we would have done if we were at SFS if the bridges over the Han were blown. Glad I never had to find out.

[Deslok]

Do you know when they started doing the drills? They weren't done in the mid 70's - even when infiltrators came across the border. However, our company compound was on the south side of the river to be on the same side as the airport. I always wondered what we would have done if we were at SFS if the bridges over the Han were blown. Glad I never had to find out.

Not sure exactly, but it might have been kind of part of the transition from missionary school to more international school with a fair number of embassy kids(that's our general word of warning, if the embassy kids aren't in school, get worried, otherwise things should be fine). They don't share it with teachers, but there's fairly detailed plans for various contingencies about pulling folks out. GM(who employs a decent percentage of our kids parents) tells all their employees that they'll arrange helicopter transport out of Seoul should trouble break out. But yeah, here's hoping I don't have to find out. I actually don't worry much about the NorKs, the only thing I fear setting off a larger conflagration is the South getting fed up with another Northern provocation and deciding to bomb in retaliation and things escalating from there. But who knows, as always in this season, praying for peace.

[DukieInKansas]

Not sure exactly, but it might have been kind of part of the transition from missionary school to more international school with a fair number of embassy kids(that's our general word of warning, if the embassy kids aren't in school, get worried, otherwise things should be fine). They don't share it with teachers, but there's fairly detailed plans for various contingencies about pulling folks out. GM(who employs a decent percentage of our kids parents) tells all their employees that they'll arrange helicopter transport out of Seoul should trouble break out. But yeah, here's hoping I don't have to find out. I actually don't worry much about the NorKs, the only thing I fear setting off a larger conflagration is the South getting fed up with another Northern provocation and deciding to bomb in retaliation and things escalating from there. But who knows, as always in this season, praying for peace.

It was about 50% missionary/50% diplomat/business when I was there as it was the only non-military English language option. It's possible the company had plans for getting us away from the school if something happened but it wasn't shared with the kids. Kids being kids, I never thought about getting away if at school - even though I knew the houses were south of the river for escape purposes. It is amazing how you can put those thoughts out of your head. Never thought about it much unless there was an incident or I had been up to visit the DMZ. We used to make our visitors try to guess what the rows of large concrete blocks were for on the road up to Panmunjom.