roethlisberger

[tecumseh]

OK I must first state the disclaimer that I am a Steeler fan. One such Steeler fan/nut case pathologist suggested that Roethlisbergers actions might be the result of frontal lobe damage I thought it was one of the silliest things I ever heard despite the fact that he has suffered numerous serious concussions. BUT with the autopsy of Chris Henry who never had a reported football concussion it does not seem so ridiculous. I mean believe Roethlisbergers actions are more of a case of young star letting fame get to his head but I do think there are a lot of NFL players who have suffered some form of brain damage from their occupation.

There are a lot of medical questions that are unanswered with respect to head trauma.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5333971

[roywhite]

OK I must first state the disclaimer that I am a Steeler fan. One such Steeler fan/nut case pathologist suggested that Roethlisbergers actions might be the result of frontal lobe damage I thought it was one of the silliest things I ever heard despite the fact that he has suffered numerous serious concussions. BUT with the autopsy of Chris Henry who never had a reported football concussion it does not seem so ridiculous. I mean believe Roethlisbergers actions are more of a case of young star letting fame get to his head but I do think there are a lot of NFL players who have suffered some form of brain damage from their occupation.

There are a lot of medical questions that are unanswered with respect to head trauma.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5333971

No doubt this is a very important issue. I'm no expert in equipment or designing a safer helmet, but since the size, strength and speed of the players seems to increase continually, it's a difficult problem.

As to Big Ben, didn't he supposedly have a full medical/psychological workup recently as a condition of his NFL probation? Didn't expect to get full details on that, but I didn't hear of any findings of serious brain problems.

[DevilHorns]

OK I must first state the disclaimer that I am a Steeler fan. One such Steeler fan/nut case pathologist suggested that Roethlisbergers actions might be the result of frontal lobe damage I thought it was one of the silliest things I ever heard despite the fact that he has suffered numerous serious concussions. BUT with the autopsy of Chris Henry who never had a reported football concussion it does not seem so ridiculous. I mean believe Roethlisbergers actions are more of a case of young star letting fame get to his head but I do think there are a lot of NFL players who have suffered some form of brain damage from their occupation.

There are a lot of medical questions that are unanswered with respect to head trauma.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5333971

Not a steeler fan here (but not a steeler hater either)--

I don't think its a far stretch to think that his previous history of concussions may have contributed to his poor decisions off the field. If he has a post-concussive syndrome, that could explain some of the poor decision making, aggressive behavior, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-concussion_syndrome

But, I have to say that I would think this sort of thing would have leaked to the press. If he is requiring therapy and a lot of doctor scripts for pain and chronic headaches I think it would be known.

My guess on the situation: he is a grown man that has let his success get to him. It's hard to stay grounded and think you are above it all when your loved by millions. Let's see how he rebounds.

[4decadedukie]

My guess on the situation: he is a grown man that has let his success get to him. It's hard to stay grounded and think you are above it all when your loved by millions. Let's see how he rebounds.

For the record, I respect the Steelers and I also believe DevilHorns has succinctly summarized the likely root cause. Hubris, as we all learned during our school years, is as ancient as it is destructive. Whenever an individual -- be he or she a teenager or a senior-citizen -- believes that societal norms, statutes, regulations, and so forth no longer apply because he/she is too ______ (you fill in the blank), poor judgment and self-inflicted problems are certain to follow.

[Indoor66]

Calling Greybeard for comment on this topic...

[roywhite]

Calling Greybeard for comment on this topic...

Uh oh.

Does the old saying..."Ask him for the time of day, and he'll tell you how to build a watch" ring a bell?

Just kidding...I read Greybeard's posts and often learn something.

[greybeard]

I think "better" helmets are contributing to the problem of concussive-type injuries that go "unnoticed" because the "ouch" is taken out of the event that causes the head that is accelerating or moving at considerable speed to suddenly stop when the brain don't.

Football's days as huge entertainment are numbered, in my opinion, once research such as is being done at UNC with specially wired helmets during practice--the research now takes measurements only on helmet to helmet hits--gets expanded to head snap-back hits (quarterback or receivers getting slammed in mid back) and head-to-ground hits. The helmet buffers the impact on the surface where the pain nerve endings are and allows the concussive-type events to go unnoticed. Soon, we will see real time images of the impact on portions of the brain that such events have. Then, the need for rule changes that will take the "wow" factor out of the game will be required, notwithstanding what the leagues or players want.

For me, this is so completely unsurprising. I think that Bryant Gumble should get an Emmy for his exposes on these type issues. He is the lone voice in the electronic media addressing this. Everyone else is just feeding at the trough that is big-time football.

I have come to a point in my life where I ask the question, "Why have I cared so much about sports my entire life, even now that I can't actually play any." I think that it is a very, very tough question, and that it has something to do with the hero/warrier myth, the search for completeness.

It's funny, if you ask a non-scholarship level athlete who puts tons of time into playing in high school and college why they play, really, what is it that they are after, they really will never have given that question any serious thought. You ask them why they are studying history and not government and they can tell you. But, what it is that has them invest so much of themselves into something that will end shortly, and perhaps leave them with lifelong injury, and nada.

None of us know, which I find weird. Now there's the pot . . . . Later.

[greybeard]

I should clarify that what is completely unsurprising ot me is that there might be science to confirm what seems relatively self-evident--that is, that repetitive brain trauma in sports, fully concussive or not, impairs judgment and might make violent flair ups more likely.

I find it especially likely among people in the quarterback and receiver positions. Those guys are the targets of violence, often gratuitous, from the time they are young kids. Impaired judgment making violence by them more likely. You need science for that? Come on.

[lmb]

On a completely personal note, my 9 year old son wants to play lacrosse next spring. I was relieved because he had been asking to play football and I had concerns, particularly in regards to how serious our school district is about it, even at his age.

I know lacrosse is a rough sport. Does anyone have insight into how it compares to football in regards to concussions? Obviously the risk is not as great, but I'm assuming they could occur fairly frequently in lacrosse as well.

[greybeard]

On a completely personal note, my 9 year old son wants to play lacrosse next spring. I was relieved because he had been asking to play football and I had concerns, particularly in regards to how serious our school district is about it, even at his age.

I know lacrosse is a rough sport. Does anyone have insight into how it compares to football in regards to concussions? Obviously the risk is not as great, but I'm assuming they could occur fairly frequently in lacrosse as well.

I have a feeling that lax is by far the safest of the field sports when it comes to concussions and probably other injuries as well. Soccer, with head to head contact being very commonplace in real competitive soccer once kids reach the early teens and all the heading, especially of long balls, is, not to put too fine a line on it, scary.

Lax has an occasional "Big Hit" that can produce concussions and the sport seems to be fostering an "athletic culture", massive workout regimens, that will lead to more of them.

I try to counsel kids to develop styles of play that reduce the prospects of injury. For example, in soccer and basketball, to develop a style that features one or two touch play as a staple, and uses beating a man on the dribble sparingly.

A lot depends on coaches. I have tried to convince the head of the Positive Coaching Alliance to build a "play safe" imperative into its paridigm but have not yet succeeded. Still working on it.

[tecumseh]

As to Big Ben, didn't he supposedly have a full medical/psychological workup recently as a condition of his NFL probation? Didn't expect to get full details on that, but I didn't hear of any findings of serious brain problems.

There are some things that are only evident on autopsy. Perhaps an incredibly detailed workup and analysis might show more but that is not what we are talking about. There are certainly injuries you cannot image with MRI or CT. There is a also a lot of debate on whether it is the numerous subacute injuries that are doing the damage or the big hits and concussions.

I know someone dating a top rookie and if and when I meet him I would definitely advise "make some great money and get out"

[greybeard]

There are some things that are only evident on autopsy. Perhaps an incredibly detailed workup and analysis might show more but that is not what we are talking about. There are certainly injuries you cannot image with MRI or CT. There is a also a lot of debate on whether it is the numerous subacute injuries that are doing the damage or the big hits and concussions.

I know someone dating a top rookie and if and when I meet him I would definitely advise "make some great money and get out"

If only he'd listen.

[Reisen]

Soccer, with head to head contact being very commonplace in real competitive soccer once kids reach the early teens and all the heading, especially of long balls, is, not to put too fine a line on it, scary.

The main issue with soccer is, as you wrote, the head-to-head impacts (as well as elbow-to-head, or knee-to-head). I think the heading of long balls is way overblown. I have played for many years, including at the ODP level, and can count the number of times I had my clock cleaned by a long ball on one hand (usually the result of getting shoved at the last second so the ball hit the very top of my head).

In contrast, I had some pretty scary collisions, either with other players, or once when my head hit the ground after being undercut while jumping for a header on a corner.

So I agree with you, just not on the long balls, even though I know a lot of research has been done into the subject.

[tecumseh]

I think if you could study it is a controlled manner I think what the data would show is that there is tremendous individual variation in how well the brain withstands trauma.

George Chuvalo was a heavyweight punching bag from Canada and whose greatest attribute was his iron chin. Old posters who are sports fans can attest that guy could take and did take a whuppin. And yet he is one of the few past stars of the heavyweight division who seems to have escaped largely unscathed.

WS Merwin is our newest poet laureate and won the Pulitzer Prize last year and is in his 80s when most people are showing significant wear and tear to their mainframe. (He might also but he is starting at genius level)

So again I think the Chris Henry post is really pretty scary, he was only 26 and had only played two years of college ball and really about a total of 3 years of pro ball. He had no history of concussions. I think the game has changed and is much more violent and 20 and 30 years from now the image of punch drunk fighter will be replaced by the punch drunk football player

[Indoor66]

Rocky Marciano also took a lot of punishment during his career. That said, he dished out more than he took.

[tecumseh]

IMHO Marciano is a bit overrated all around he was champion and did not really fight against quality opponents, not his fault the heavyweight division was just lightweight at the time and he did not fight too many fights.

Ali had a great chin and fought some guys who could really punch, Liston, Foreman, Shavers, Frazier. There is some debate whether all those punches and all that sparring contributes to his damaged state today.

[greybeard]

Rocky Marciano also took a lot of punishment during his career. That said, he dished out more than he took.

Talking about taking a beating, Carmon Basillio, now he could take a beating. Looked it too. My gosh, are we really this old? Good thing I was a coward--never went near a fight nor a football field; I don't remember so good as it is.

[greybeard]

The main issue with soccer is, as you wrote, the head-to-head impacts (as well as elbow-to-head, or knee-to-head). I think the heading of long balls is way overblown. I have played for many years, including at the ODP level, and can count the number of times I had my clock cleaned by a long ball on one hand (usually the result of getting shoved at the last second so the ball hit the very top of my head).

In contrast, I had some pretty scary collisions, either with other players, or once when my head hit the ground after being undercut while jumping for a header on a corner.

So I agree with you, just not on the long balls, even though I know a lot of research has been done into the subject.

I don't see anyone at the club or high school level taking heading in the scoring area out of the game. So the risks there are going to stay.

The long balls; my observations some coaches teach their defenders to physically challenge everyone going up for a goal kick or a long pass, whether they have a reasonable chance or not. They play an intimidating style. I think that maybe the game can be modified somewhat to take those plays out of play. At what age do you allow it, and how tight do you call defensive challenges as fouls, issue cards on second offenses, should, in my view, be explored.

Right now, to my knowledge, no consideration is being given to such rule changes for any age groups (12-14 are the most dangerous players in the air, except to the older guys whose coaches teach smoothering, intimidating defense including at risk in the air challenges. The positive coaching alliance's executive director, Ed Thompson, is a terrific guy and his book on double or is it triple goal coaching and how to be a positive influence in your kid's sports lives is a must for anyone with well, er, kids who play sports. But, Ed steers his organization clear of such issues except if addressed obliquely in a post about some other topic. Too bad. I tell him his organization's mission will always be incomplete and actually out of integrity without a safety focus as one of its stated goals for kid's sports. I believe that.

[Indoor66]

IMHO Marciano is a bit overrated all around he was champion and did not really fight against quality opponents, not his fault the heavyweight division was just lightweight at the time and he did not fight too many fights.

Ali had a great chin and fought some guys who could really punch, Liston, Foreman, Shavers, Frazier. There is some debate whether all those punches and all that sparring contributes to his damaged state today.

Marciano was 49 - 0 with 43 knockouts. NO ONE has ever had that record. Did you ever see him fight?

[tecumseh]

49-0 means nothing if it is a bum a month club here is a blurb and standard argument. If he had fought a big young guy who could punch he would have been in trouble.

Rocky Marciano: Although small at 5’ 10 ¼ and 185 pounds Marciano was a tremendous puncher. He was also a non-stop slugger who wore down his opposition through attrition. A classic swarming style heavyweight who never stopped coming and never stopped punching until his opponents wilted. He was greatly conditioned and often set a relentless pace. Marciano’s tough chin and powerful right hand keep him a threat against most opponents. The only heavyweight champion to retire unbeaten and not come back. 49-0 is his legacy. Why he isn't higher: He never faced a 1st tier heavyweight puncher who weighed over 200 pounds. The two best punchers he faced in his career, Walcott and Moore- aged 38 and 42 at the time-had Rocky on the canvas. Joe Louis is not included since when he met Rocky, the Brown Bomber had long since lost his once devastating punch.