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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY

    How will 2010 Champ playing style impact Duke going forward?

    (If this is already being discussed in other threads, please feel free to move this. I couldn't find it)

    In the championship afterglow, I've been thinking a lot about how Duke is hanging a banner because offensive rebounding and a less extended defense with less perimeter pressure was what worked for this team.

    We know that K designs strategy around the players he has to work with, and this year's design was driven by, as Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe so greatly put it, "3 Piano Players and 3 Piano Movers". In 2010, we expect Mason to become a Piano Player, and we're bringing in a few piano players.

    My question is, because we were able to win a title by dominating the offensive glass and, more or less, packing in the defense, will K try and keep those aspects a prominent feature of the team moving forward? As a fan, it was so satisfying to watch a Duke team that dominated the glass - especially the offensive glass - that I'd love to see K keep that effort at the forefront of our strategy.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    (If this is already being discussed in other threads, please feel free to move this. I couldn't find it)

    In the championship afterglow, I've been thinking a lot about how Duke is hanging a banner because offensive rebounding and a less extended defense with less perimeter pressure was what worked for this team.

    We know that K designs strategy around the players he has to work with, and this year's design was driven by, as Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe so greatly put it, "3 Piano Players and 3 Piano Movers". In 2010, we expect Mason to become a Piano Player, and we're bringing in a few piano players.

    My question is, because we were able to win a title by dominating the offensive glass and, more or less, packing in the defense, will K try and keep those aspects a prominent feature of the team moving forward? As a fan, it was so satisfying to watch a Duke team that dominated the glass - especially the offensive glass - that I'd love to see K keep that effort at the forefront of our strategy.
    I think you answered your own question. It will depend on the personnel and how they shape up. We can only guess at this point.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    Good question, but hard to say. I heard Coach K on Dan Patrick last week, talking about how hard it is to do long-term planning in college basketball. The first step is to attract and recruit talented student-athletes, but it seems very hard to specify much on sizes and playing styles of those that come. Other than trying to get some big players and some smaller players, the college environment with early NBA entry makes more specific criteria hard to attain.

    What Coach K does very well, and considerably better than Ole Roy, is to develop the best system and style for the players on hand. Honestly, the 2010-11 team will likely be quite different than the 2009-10 team. Good defense will always be a priority, but in some cases that will mean extended pressure and overplay on the passing lanes; some years it will mean containment and good defensive rebounding.

    My take is that the carryover, even from a championship team, will not be much, and each team will have a different style.

    We may see more of the offensive rebound and kick it out to a 3-pt shooter than we saw prior to this year. That seemed to work pretty well.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Good question, that I agree you somewhat answered in your original post. I think Roywhite makes some great points as well. I heard that Dan Patrick interview as well and wonder if this year may change recruiting and playing philosophies a bit though. I always figure in a basketball game it is nice to have some room for error. If you defend well, and can get some extra possessions over your opponent, you can survive a poor shooting night, which happens to every team. Typical Duke teams have given themselves a margin of error, by defending well, but also creating turnovers leading to easy baskets.

    This CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM (bolded in case anyone needed reminding that Duke won the championship this year ) got extra possessions in a different way from most Duke teams, through offensive rebounding. It sure was nice to know going into a game that the team did not necessarily have to shoot well to win because of Zoubs' (and others') offensive rebounding. The other advantage of course, was instead of leading to easy fast-break baskets, this often led to open 3 point shots, which could be back breakers for teams that just defended and had a missed shot from Duke. Of course, the other reason the team didn't have to shoot well, was because the team's defense (more contain with great help-side than pressure with great help-side) was really solid as the year progressed.

    I wonder if the team may incorporate more of a focus on offensive rebounding to generate extra possessions and 3-pointers in the future, as well as putting pressure on the perimeter. If Miles, Mason, Ryan, Carrick and/or Joshua can grasp rotations and work on their quickness, there is the potential to employ perimeter pressure with the team's quick guards, but those guys also have the size to go hard after the offensive rebounds. (Of course, if Kyle is back, everything is even better as he has already proven to be a very good offensive rebounder and defender.)

    There certainly is great potential to create extra chances from both defensive pressure and offensive rebounding in the next few years, but the team may go through some growing pains without the seniors' communication skills on defense. I remember hearing how coach K feels there are three important areas: offense, defense and communication. I think there will be a steep growing curve with regards to communication if the next team is to fulfill its potential. Should be fun to watch.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    I think Coach K (and hopefully us fans) will start to realize that 3-4 year players are a better approach to building a team. So rather than waiting for a John Wall or (dare I say, HB) perhaps taking an Andre Dawkins or Josh Hairston or a Tyler Adams might be the better approach. Yes, he still will go after Kyrie Irving, Quincy Miller and Austin Rivers, but make those recruits the "icing on the cake" rather than the core of the class. Andre, Josh and Tyler may be good enough to turn pro in 3 years but you will have them around long enough to build a team. (Kyrie may also stay for 3 years but Coach K does not have to hope that this happens.)

    As far as style of play goes, I think the fact that Coach K is recruiting Adams, O'Bryant and Plumlee tells me that he is thinking that "small ball" may not be the way to move forward.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Remember back to November, when we were playing a bit of zone and that was going to be the answer? Good times.

    If we have quick guards, we'll pressure the point. If we have big'ins, we'll be a rebounding team. If we have both -- watch out.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    I think you answered your own question. It will depend on the personnel and how they shape up. We can only guess at this point.
    I agree, but would respectfully add one point that is more strategic (multi-year) than tactical (annual, based on personnel): Coach K has ALWAYS strongly emphasized DEFENSE as the foundation of competitive victory against excellent teams (thank goodness, in my opinion). Our 2010 Championship-level success will reinforce this approach even further, both in the coaches' priorities and in the players' understanding.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    As has been said, we'll play the system that best fits the talent we have. It just so happened that the combination of talent, experience, and the system we employed resulted in a championship this year. This system wouldn't have worked with previous teams, because:
    - Zoubek and Thomas weren't able to stay on the floor consistently and weren't as dominant; and
    - we didn't have the frontcourt depth to maintain this style if/when Zoubek and Thomas got in foul trouble.

    Next year, we will have a very different team (especially if Singler goes). The following year, the team may look even more different. Coach K will do his best to find the system that works best for the players we have each year. It may or may not be that the best system is this one.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    I am glad that some have started commenting on recruiting because that's where my thought went next.

    Does K decide that having 5 guys that can score isn't necessary if you've got 3-4 who can really fill it up so you look to have a space eating screener, offensive rebounder, shot blocker who is willing to play that role? Or, was that just special for this year because Z was Z?

  10. #10
    Right off the bat, next year's team will play differently because Kyrie Irving is a totally different type of PG than Jon Scheyer on Offense and Nolan Smith on Defense, mostly the former since Nolan will still be at Duke.

    How different will depend on whether Kyle returns, but regardless if he does or does not, I think coach K will make significant use of Ryan Kelly in a Singler-lite role, whether as a starter or as a reserve.

    Coach K has 30 years at Duke and has won it all 4 times. So he will not overcompensate to be solely Offensive Rebounding, though defense has always been his strong suit.

    I expect he goes with 3 guards always playing three of Kyrie Irving, Seth Curry, Nolan Smith and Andre Dawkins backed up by Tyler Thornton and Carrick Felix.

    Then rotate four forwards, one of who may or may not be Singler. Only four to choose from if Singler goes NBA route this year. If not, Ryan Kelly likely is the fourth with two Plumlees, and Josh Hairston likely plays the role Kelly did this year, and then replaces Kyle in rotation the following year.

    From a defensive perspective there is no 7 foot 260 pounder Zoubs replacement. Kyle assumes Lance's defensive role, without being the liability on Offense that Lance and Dave McClure were.

    If no Singler, it is possible Tyler Thornton or Carrick Felix or Josh Hairston earn more PT with their defense, but I am expecting their PT will resemble Dre's and Ryan's this year and Miles last year as apprentices with more PT in subsequent years as I expect for Dre and Ryan next year, and as was gthe case for Miles this year.

    Now that the team is not as slow with Jon, Kyle and Zoubs, coach K reverts to more high risk high reward defense of passing lanes and plays more uptempo with three of [Irving, Smith, Curry and Dawkins] and two bigs more mobile than Z.

    Depending on the match-ups either Irving-Smith-Singler-Kelly-Plumlee or Irving-Smith-Dawkins-(Singler/Kelly)-Plumlee with adjustments to sometimes start both Plunmlees.

    Irving, Curry, Smith, Dawkins, Singler, Plumlee, Plumlee, Kelly all 8 play starter minutes with PT for Thornton, Felix and Hairston more variable, one or both of the latter having close to starter minutes if Kyle does not return and they earn PT with their defense.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    First let me say, because I heard him, that Ryan had Duke going out in the second round, and deeply questioned its ranking. He has no, zero appreciation, for Z's ability to really see the game and for his extraordinary play on offense, which in no small part was predicted on that vision. He also has zero appreciation for the screen game that K developed, with screening patterns that changed as often as Ryan now changes his shirts, which used to be once a month, but now he throws em out after wearing them once. I could go on but the man knows jack about Duke. I should tell you that my man T brought him out short in his ensuing weekly visits to his radio show, at each time shoving the views of yours truly down his throat--to bad T didn't actually bother to get what I had written to him exactly right, but I'm not bitin the hand that gave me my 15 seconds plus.

    That said, this is how I think that this year's offense will impact on next years:

    1. Smith will be a first team All American going in, and, if he isn't, it'll only be because guys like Ryan are making the call. Duke, in the half court, when time runs down will have his hands to put it in, or the new kid's, which should be something. Smith's experience this year will allow them to feature him from the beginning as much as they did at the end of last year. This is huge. Smith also learned something invaluable after the first few games--how to finish safe, how to save the bustin-it finishes for when they are really needed. His ability to very reliability finish on a pull up 10 footer will be invaluable in the half court.

    2. Miles and Mason I think will be higher end offensive players this year, who will be economical and still do the little things that will distinguish their high/low deployment and scoring from the crowd. Having played with and against Z and L will serve them the rest of their careers, especially next year when Duke will be as good as these two permit.

    3, If Kelly puts on a little muscle, what he learned from going man up against Singler this season will go miles and miles in preparing him to guard the three men and be quite effective at it. This again will be huge. I also expect for similar reasons that his defense against 4 & 5's, and his ability to score from that position, will have advanced dramatically.

    I think that Duke's offense might be most potent when he is on the floor.

    4. Dawkins and Curry; it is difficult to count what their practice time against the Big Three has meant this year, but I expect them to defend much better than otherwise. Assuming the new guy gets the point, the ability of these guys to put up numbers, not just off 3 balls but in transition and off half court penetration will be extremely important.

    I think that Duke will need to score much more next year than this to reach its potential. The team will be smaller and be thin in the middle, unless Ryan really surprises, which is not beyond the pale, or the Junior College guy is the beast that some have suggested.

    In any case, I think the challenge will be to play a style that keeps the Plumlees out of foul trouble and fresh. I should think we will see a return to pressure defense on the ball, with an emphasis on turning people over and converting off the steals. Duke will also have the personnel to flat out run, off misses and even makes, and I think that they just might.

  12. #12
    next years team should be able to shoot much better from three than this team so it will be so crucial for the plumlees to rebound and defend and they should be able to provide more offensively. RK is certainly the wild card, his ability to contribute at both ends of the floor will go along way in deciding the 2010-2011 teams fate

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    WA State
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    I am glad that some have started commenting on recruiting because that's where my thought went next.

    Does K decide that having 5 guys that can score isn't necessary if you've got 3-4 who can really fill it up so you look to have a space eating screener, offensive rebounder, shot blocker who is willing to play that role? Or, was that just special for this year because Z was Z?
    Billy King. Not spacer eater but the best defender to play at Duke that I've seen. K seemed to utilize his skills pretty well. I think he'll to the same with the 2010-11 squad. He uses what he has.

  14. #14
    I agree with those who expect us to revert to a more traditional K-style with aggressive over-play defense and looking to turn the opponent over at a high rate and generate transition baskets.

    In the half-court offense, I expect to see a lot of motion, some high-screen pick and roll, some high-low play and lots of open threes. We will frequently see the back-door cut for a lob to a big guy. It will be a very loose, creative offensive.

    Nevertheless, I think we will be a fairly strong offensive rebounding team simply because of the athleticism of the Plumlees.

    With mobile, athletic bigs, K will look to the bigs to rotate to stop the dribble-driver and I expect both Plumlees to rack up a good number of blocks. With the athleticism up front, we will be able to switch screens in a lot of situations.

    I think it will be an exciting, high-powered offense, and an in-your-face, gambling defense. More good times for Duke fans!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    As has been said, we'll play the system that best fits the talent we have. It just so happened that the combination of talent, experience, and the system we employed resulted in a championship this year. This system wouldn't have worked with previous teams, because:
    - Zoubek and Thomas weren't able to stay on the floor consistently and weren't as dominant; and
    - we didn't have the frontcourt depth to maintain this style if/when Zoubek and Thomas got in foul trouble.


    Next year, we will have a very different team (especially if Singler goes). The following year, the team may look even more different. Coach K will do his best to find the system that works best for the players we have each year. It may or may not be that the best system is this one.
    When I read the OP, the bold highlight in the above is what I thought of. I think the style that Duke played this year, which gave me great comfort that every (well, almost) game was winnable, is the fact that there were 4 bigs that could rotate in and out, without fatigue or foul problems to really worry about. As mentioned elsewhere, when Duke settled on starting Zoubs and LT, then bringing in the brothers Plumblee... all 4 knew and embraced their roles. I think that for Duke to do this again requires the right mix of players... so yeah... Coach K will adjust the system to his players... like no other coach can

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