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  1. #1161
    Quote Originally Posted by stillcrazie View Post
    If that is true, then why was he leading the league in both points and assists for most of the season?
    because he dominated the ball (not in a selfish way). Like lebron, who is far from a selfish player as he is a very willing and gifted passer, but his game revolves so much around dominting the ball for long periods of time before he shoots or passes to his teammates, that sometimes, it does not better the team. nolan was never really effective in passing into the post (or post re entry passes). In fact, our team was one of the worst post passing/entry teams I saw all season. we were so guard oriented, almost too much for our own good

  2. #1162
    I really wish the recruitment of Tyler Adams went differently, but that was more of a gut instinct from him than us ever having him in the first place. I do hope we get big guys who play like big men consistently. A midrange game is fine, but we need to get guys who like being in the paint. Bangers. We had two guys who were willing to do that in Zoubek and Thomas. I would like us to add some more of them. Big men with guard skills are unique, but not as valuable as a space-eater down low, IMO. Many games are won and lost on the boards.

  3. #1163
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    balance leads to consistency. giving the inside guys a chance to score and to be a bigger part of the offense gives them more confidence. consistency and confidence creates great leadership and great chemistry. thats my point.

  4. #1164
    Quote Originally Posted by Gthoma2a View Post
    I do hope we get big guys who play like big men consistently. A midrange game is fine, but we need to get guys who like being in the paint. Bangers. We had two guys who were willing to do that in Zoubek and Thomas. I would like us to add some more of them.
    Lance Thomas was a trooper for four years, and very versatile defensively, but he was 6'8", stick thin, and never averaged as many as five (5) rebounds per game. It's really a stretch to call him a "big guy who played like a big man," or a "banger."

  5. #1165
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Lance Thomas was a trooper for four years, and very versatile defensively, but he was 6'8", stick thin, and never averaged as many as five (5) rebounds per game. It's really a stretch to call him a "big guy who played like a big man," or a "banger."
    But Kedsy, remember that it is impossible to win the championship without a "banger" down low. Since this theory is undoubtedly true, we are required to revise our definitions of Zoubek and Thomas, two players who were criticized ad infinitum for not being the "bangers" we needed during all but the final month of their collegiate careers, to include them in the category of "bangers" so that the theory remains true and we can continue to have these debates after every NCAA tourney loss from now until the end of NCAA basketball.

  6. #1166
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Durham, NC
    One thing that hasn't been brought up is the problems with the big man rotation this year. When the bigs have to worry about foul trouble they play much more up tight.

    Zoubek and Thomas weren't physical down low till Duke started having a deeper big man rotation. That depth up front allowed the big man to play more loosely and physically.

    I think if Duke goes 4 deep like in 2010, we'd see much more physicality out of the big men.

  7. #1167
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    No criticism of Coach K or the program from me. Could we use a big guy, skilled and proficient in the lowpost, back to the basket offense? Absolutely. I like the Plumlees and think they play hard. They are not classic low post players and we could really use a guy with some reliable low post moves.
    I completely agree that a classic, back to the basket, proficient low post scorer would be great. The problem is that I don't think there are very many of them playing college basketball. I am getting a bit tired of people (certainly not meaning to specify you as you mention that you aren't criticizing coach K and I will try to show you why that is sensible) saying the team should just get more back to the basket scorers, as if they grow on trees.
    I looked at the RSCI rankings for the past 3 years and listed the top 30 power forwards and centers listed, or at least most of them and I went down a bit further, in some cases.
    This year's freshmen class includes Jared Sullinger, Tobias Harris (Tenn) Enes Kanter (UK), Perry Jones (Baylor), Tristan Thompson (Texas), Terrence Jones (UK), C.J. Leslie (NC St.), Fab Melo (Syracuse), Deshaun Thomas (OSU), Josh Smith (UCLA), Patric Young (Florida), Adreian Payne (MSU), Meyers Leonard (Illinois), Josh Hairston.

    Out of these top 30 recruits, Jared is obviously a solid back to the basket scorer. I believe Harris plays a bit inside and out for Tennessee. I don't know how much Perry Jones plays in the post, Terrence is more of a slashing scorer is my impression, Leslie doesn't score much in the post, Melo, Thomas, Young, and Leondard struggled to make their rotations, I don't think Payne played much and I think Josh Smith ended up having a pretty good year. Thompson I understand is solid inside, though I am not sure how much he scores on post ups.

    The sophomore class included Derrick Favors (GTech) and Demarcus Cousins (UK)(now pro) John Henson (UNC), Renardo Sidney (Miss.St.), Keith Gallon (Oklahoma), Mouphtaou Yarou (Nova), Dante Taylor (Pitt), Ryan, Wally Judge (K-State, but quit their team), Alex Oriakhi (UConn), Mason, Daniel Orton (UK), Milton Jennings (Clemson), Thomas Robinson (KU), the Wears (UCLA via UNC.) I don't think Jordan Williams was in the top 100.

    I would say Jordan is the best post player in college of this group at this point. Favors and Cousins are pros. Henson has some good moves, but excels more defensively at this point. Yarou was injured or sick for a bit of last year, but looks to have the potential to be a good block scorer when needed. Taylor doesn't play that much for Pitt, Oriakhi isn't one of the primary scoring options for UConn, Orton didn't have time to make an offensive more with his playing time for UK last year, Jennings is on the perimeter, Robinson I think will be a real beast down low and is very efficient.

    In the Junior class, the Morris twins are very good post scorers (I believe Marcus is the most efficient post scorer in the country, I am not sure how effective Markieff is.) They were ranked around the same place Olek was in that class and a bit ahead of Miles. Tyler Zeller and Ed Davis were highly rated post players in that class, along with Samardo Samuels, Delvon Roe, Greg Monroe, B.J. Mullen (4 of 6 are now pro). The next highest ranked post players (all ranked well ahead of the Morris twins, Olek and Miles included J'Mison Morgan, Eloy Vargas, Rashanti Harris, Jeff Whithey, Drew Gordon, Ty Walker and Tony Woods.

    So looking at these last three classes, Duke has Ryan Kelly, Mason Plumlee, Miles Plumlee and Josh Hairston, with Marshall coming next year. Who out of these classes are still in college and are better post scorers?

    The Morris twins, but they weren't highly ranked at the time, Zeller, Henson, Yarou?, Oriakhi?, Robinson, Sidney? (pretty sure he wasn't a Duke option), Jordan Williams (wasn't ranked highly), Sullinger?, Harris?, P. Jones?, J. Smith.

    When I look at this list, I feel very fortunate that Duke has the frontcourt it has. I don't know where everyone would like coach K and the staff to find all these low post scorers to fill the team. If there were a whole bunch out there, that would be great. There aren't.

    Miles, Mason and Ryan all showed improvement this year and I have a feeling that if Mason is back, he could be one of the top 10 low post scorers in college basketball next year, as he is starting to get more comfortable. I believe he is already one of the 10 best passers out of the post and will be one of the better returning rebounders. Miles and Ryan have showed a few post moves here and there and aren't at this point consistent back to the basket threats. Next year, the team's top two scorers will be gone and our big guys will be some of our most experienced players and may become more of a focus of the offense. They may also improve over the summer. They have as good a chance as being effective low post scorers as almost anyone else in the country, especially considering Duke will still have some great perimeter fire power.

    Great job coaches getting some of the best frontcourt talent available the last few years. I hope that continues.

  8. #1168
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nashville
    Also interesting to note that big time post scorers don't always look the part in HS. Derrick Williams and Marcus Morris - the two best PFs in the country - were 6'7 195 and 6'8 210, respectively, coming out of HS. Maybe the recipe for post offense is to take a 6'7-6'8 combo forward with long arms and some bounce and add 30 pounds of muscle?

    If so, Deandre Daniels fits the bill perfectly.

  9. #1169
    Quote Originally Posted by COYS View Post
    But Kedsy, remember that it is impossible to win the championship without a "banger" down low. Since this theory is undoubtedly true, we are required to revise our definitions of Zoubek and Thomas, two players who were criticized ad infinitum for not being the "bangers" we needed during all but the final month of their collegiate careers, to include them in the category of "bangers" so that the theory remains true and we can continue to have these debates after every NCAA tourney loss from now until the end of NCAA basketball.
    I am sorry, but remember that they turned out to be pretty tough in one March-April. Did you see that happening this year? Did you hear of Kyle needing stitches from coming down the lane at one of our bigs this year? Did you see us control the glass against a team that had a big this year?

    This isn't an insult to what we have, but it is a statement that we need to get a little more brutal, mean, viscious, and unscared down low. I don't mind fouls if we get the rebounds and demand respect on the boards. I don't mind shooting a three every now and again if they have the range, but we have to remember that the glass needs to be cleaned too. I am not a fan of big men putting the ball on the floor 12 foot from the basket, but will admit that driving the lane for an open dunk makes sense and ignites the faithful and our team. My point is that I want to see anger from our bigs. I want to see other teams bigs frustrated again. Lance and Zoubs did that. Zoubs was a bruiser his entire career (note foul trouble), so when he got healthy and realized that it was his last chance, he turned it into something more. Lance always played D with desperation and ferver. He rarely ever missed an assignment. He took pride in his defense, and that was a key contribution for us. These are things that won us a championship. I haven't seen big guys playing like guards starting and winning titles much without the help of someone to do the dirty work. Kyle did dirty work this year, but he was trying to play on the perimeter so that we would also have a much needed scoring option (I just want someone else to get that attitude of, "I may not do anything that looks pretty this entire game, but I refuse to let you get the best of me" down low). I don't care if they make Sportscenter's top plays. I just want them to play with a desperate hunger to win, and an attitude that draws the line in the sand and dares others to cross it. Have an anger about the way you play that makes the other team's bigs wonder if you are going to grab the rebound or swing at them. I am not saying play dirty, but show no respect to the guys you are playing or concern about how you look to Sportscenter at any given moment.

  10. #1170

    Tony Parker

    This guy is a beast! Watching him in the North/South game and he is killing it. He would look really good in Duke Blue.

  11. #1171
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by bdevil4life View Post
    This guy is a beast! Watching him in the North/South game and he is killing it. He would look really good in Duke Blue.
    And for those wondering, Airowe tweeted today that Tony told Dave Telep that Duke is the school recruiting him the hardest right now.
    "I don't like them when they are eating my azaleas or rhododendrons or pansies." - Coach K

  12. #1172
    Please let us get Tony Parker! PLEEEEEEEEEEASE!

  13. #1173
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Talking 2012 Summary, Please?

    This thread is 59 pages long. Can we get a summary of where the 2012 recruiting stands? (a) Verbal commitments. (b) Offers outstanding or likely to be made.

    I believe we have commitments from Rasheed and Alex Murphy. It is apparent that we are pursuing Tony Parker hard.

    Who else is in the mix?

    sagegrouse

  14. #1174
    I think we are still in the mix for Shabazz.

  15. #1175
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    This thread is 59 pages long. Can we get a summary of where the 2012 recruiting stands? (a) Verbal commitments. (b) Offers outstanding or likely to be made.

    I believe we have commitments from Rasheed and Alex Murphy. It is apparent that we are pursuing Tony Parker hard.

    Who else is in the mix?

    sagegrouse
    Please correct me if I'm wrong/add more, but I believe we have the following:

    Verbal Commits: Murphy - SF, Sulaimon - SG (Woot x 2)
    Strongly Considering: Shabazz Muhammad - SG, Tony Parker - C (Parker more so lately, which would be a huge get)
    Also Considering: L.J. Rose - PG, Andre Drummond - C

    I had forgotten that Drummond may still be interested since I heard he was favoring Gtown or UConn more, but hopefully we have a chance. He looks amazing. Rose is sort of confusing since we'd have Cook and Thornton.

    Not to speculate too much, of course, but could you imagine a class with Rose, Sulaimon, Murphy and Parker? It would truly be a complete class.

  16. #1176
    looks like we are recruiting this guy as well...

    http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketb...-Carter-106144

    anyone have anymore info?

  17. #1177
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    So looking at these last three classes, Duke has Ryan Kelly, Mason Plumlee, Miles Plumlee and Josh Hairston, with Marshall coming next year. Who out of these classes are still in college and are better post scorers?
    Miles: 4.8
    Mason: 7.2
    Ryan: 6.6
    Josh: 1.4 PPG

    While put together they average 20 ppg exactly, none of these guys are really great post scorers.

    Alex oriakhi, for instance, is averaging 10 and 8.5
    Derrick Williams averaged 19.5 and 8.3
    Andrew smith for butler averaged 8.6 and 5.5
    Tyler Zeller went for 15.7 and 7.2


    These are all teams that did really well...so now for some who didn't
    Jerai Grant for Clemson went for 12.4 and 6.7
    Robert Lewandowski for Texas Tech had 8.5 and 4.8

    My point is not to rip on our bigs, but to refute NSdukefans assertion that there aren't better post scorers currently in college who are as good scorers as our bigs are. This is simply untrue. Yeah at first I picked big men I knew who were better scorers, but then after that I chose 2 teams off the top of my head and found that they each had a post scorer more prolific than any of ours. Perhaps I mistook the meaning of the previous post, but our current crop of bigs when taken individually are not currently prolific scorers.
    1200. DDMF.

  18. #1178
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Miles: 4.8
    Mason: 7.2
    Ryan: 6.6
    Josh: 1.4 PPG

    While put together they average 20 ppg exactly, none of these guys are really great post scorers.

    Alex oriakhi, for instance, is averaging 10 and 8.5
    Derrick Williams averaged 19.5 and 8.3
    Andrew smith for butler averaged 8.6 and 5.5
    Tyler Zeller went for 15.7 and 7.2


    These are all teams that did really well...so now for some who didn't
    Jerai Grant for Clemson went for 12.4 and 6.7
    Robert Lewandowski for Texas Tech had 8.5 and 4.8

    My point is not to rip on our bigs, but to refute NSdukefans assertion that there aren't better post scorers currently in college who are as good scorers as our bigs are. This is simply untrue. Yeah at first I picked big men I knew who were better scorers, but then after that I chose 2 teams off the top of my head and found that they each had a post scorer more prolific than any of ours. Perhaps I mistook the meaning of the previous post, but our current crop of bigs when taken individually are not currently prolific scorers.
    Mason Plumlee had the 39th best FG% in the country. He also averaged 8.4 boards. So it is funny you bring up everyone elses rebounding but not his? And then you can bring up different variables such as Duke having 2 and sometimes 3 of the best perimeter players and you wonder why he didn't shoot more? The only one in a similar situation is Oriakhi and he averaged 5 more minutes. Mason actually outrebounded Oriakhi per 40 minutes and was only 1.5 points behind him over 40. (And imagine if he shot a little better from the charity stripe)

  19. #1179

    Quickness

    I would like to see inside players who are rugged enough to get and hold position inside, agile and quick to recognize situations and get off the floor and tenacious about scoring, rebounding and blocking shots. Touch is also important inside. Great height is not as important.

    Sulliger comes to mind and would be better 1o to 20 pounds lighter.
    One of the Morris twins of Kansas has these characteristics

    Mason is athletic and does go after blocks and rebounds, but to me doesn't react quickly enough or have the touch around the basket. He is also only 230 pounds and is not quite rugged enough to establish and hold his position inside. There is definitely hope with him improving next year as 10 pounds of muscle and the additional experience will put him into another higher category.

    Miles is rugged and athletic but doesn't seem quick enough to recognize situations and doesn't seem to have a lot of touch around the basket. He has some problem catching and controlling the ball in traffic. He is a good player inside but seems to have a lower ceiling than Mason.

    Ryan has the ruggedness of Mason and doesn't have either of the Plumlee's athleticism. What I think he has is basketball IQ, by which I mean the ability to quickly recognize situations and react accordingly. He will never be quick off the floor but is going to continue to improve and be a very solid inside presence for the next two years.

    Mashall remains and unknown. We shall see. Tall and athletic goes with the Plumlee name.

    Josh is in the 6'7" range and not a great jumper but is rugged enough to hold position inside. He also has reasonable touch inside but really got very little chance to demonstate it this year. The competition level for inside positions leads me to believe he just may have to move to the 3 to get any minutes this coming year and the 3 is not a great fit for him. He is just one of those tweeners. Hope he can break into the lineup for some minutes, since he is a great kid.

  20. #1180
    Quote Originally Posted by BluePanda View Post
    Please correct me if I'm wrong/add more, but I believe we have the following:

    Verbal Commits: Murphy - SF, Sulaimon - SG (Woot x 2)
    Strongly Considering: Shabazz Muhammad - SG, Tony Parker - C (Parker more so lately, which would be a huge get)
    Also Considering: L.J. Rose - PG, Andre Drummond - C

    I had forgotten that Drummond may still be interested since I heard he was favoring Gtown or UConn more, but hopefully we have a chance. He looks amazing. Rose is sort of confusing since we'd have Cook and Thornton.

    Not to speculate too much, of course, but could you imagine a class with Rose, Sulaimon, Murphy and Parker? It would truly be a complete class.
    fwiw, espn says we're in on drummond, muhammad, parker, and torian graham (SG). looking at our roster, and with murphy and sulaimon already in the fold, gotta think parker's the #1 target

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