2012 Basketball Recruiting Thread

[Starter]

Geez Kong, give it a rest with the Wojo type stuff, huh? People on this board treat you with a good amount of respect and have been very accommodating of your views and such, considering your inauspicious origins and general modus operandi. I know you're over the moon right now and having a grand old time attempting to stir the pot, but this isn't the first time North Carolina has beaten Duke, and it most likely won't be the last. I'd like to assume you're better than this.

To, uh, stay on topic -- for anyone in the NY/NJ area, St. Patrick plays St. Anthony in what's basically the de facto national title game on Wednesday at 9 p.m. at Rutgers. If you want a look at very tall might-be point guard Kyle Anderson -- and a very high level high school basketball game -- come on out. I hope to make the trip, though my work schedule may get in the way.

[Greg_Newton]

I understand you would rather insult my opinion than provide a meaningful defense. its not just me pal, many of your buddies seem to feel the same way.

Don't kid yourself into thinking you're enlightening anyone here. Please see 1-F: http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/DBRHPR7.1asPDF.pdf

Let's just save some time:

A: Wojo should not be big man coach, he is 5'10.
B: Many, if not most, of the best big man coaches and have guards, including Pete Newell.
A: Either way, Wojo doesn't develop big men. Look at Lance Thomas and Shavlik Randolph.
B: Okay, then when you're done look at Carlos Boozer and Shelden Williams.
A: Well, but I still believe Wojo isn't a good big man coach.
B: Well I do.

[cue 47 pages of swapping subjective opinions and guesses on things we have no way of knowing.]

This debate has happened a million times, and there's no way to resolve it - there's evidence on both sides. It would be great if we could keep the 2012 recruiting thread from being consumed by it simply because it was brought up in a drive-by post by a UNC fan.

[oldnavy]

Who is UNC's big man coach?

[lotusland]

Maybe McRoberts didn't have a "go-to move," but Mason will have to hit that hook shot about 100 more times during a game before the NBA believes it's a reliable move.

Here's a highlight video of McRoberts, none of which serves to disprove your point but is fun to watch nonethless 8-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOuzofoWwzA

a 6 minute highlight video and not even one 15-ft jumper. McRoberts had talent but nobody could have stopped him if he could shoot. But I remember how uncomfortable he looked when he shot the ball and how many times he simply passed up open shots. I remember thinking to myself how good he would be if he had spent half as much time working on his shot as he did on his behind the back dribble and no-look passes. It was disappointing when he left after just 2-years but the next year after watching Kyle play a few games I realized he was a better college player.

[jimsumner]

Who is UNC's big man coach?

Bill Guthridge was UNC's big-man coach back when they were churning out the likes of Robert McAdoo, Bobby Jones, Mitch Kupchak, Sam Perkins and Brad Daugherty.

He also was the big man coach when UNC was churning out Geoff Crompton, Pete Budko, Chris Brust and Matt Wenstrom, all of whom were prep All-Americans.

Two points. One doesn't have to be a big man to coach big men. You never can tell with big men. You just never can tell.

[tommy]

Chad Ford of ESPN sees Mason as a first rounder. If he has several more of the Marquette performances, a potential lottery.

Maybe he is, but I've got to believe his stock has fallen significantly. Clearly, the Marquette performance was an outlier. He had 25 points in that game. He has reached double figures in only seven of our other 30 games, with a high of 16. In eight games he has scored either zero or two points.

Mason's rebounding has been excellent, and he has shown flashes of other aspects of his game's potential. His jump hook, when in rhythm, can look great. But he shoots it very rarely. In his two years, he has basically shown himself to be a jumping jack who has learned to rebound pretty consistently, but has not developed any of the other basketball skills necessary to be consistently productive at the college level -- most glaringly (on the offensive end) the lack of development of a single reliable post move and the lack of ability to finish inside against big players, and (on the defensive end) the lack of discipline and fundamentals to be able to play solid defense without fouling.

To me, the other thing that would bother me in scouting Mason is that I don't see a lot of passion out of him. When is the last time anybody saw Mason get angry? Get after a teammate verbally? Show some intensity? Get upset about a call? Knock an opponent on his butt when he dares to drive the lane? Nothing seems to draw much of a reaction out of him. Mason as a player, and this team, could use some of that IMO.

[fgb]

i think mason has improved immeasurably as far as fouls are concerned.

as far as "passion", well, that's sort of an intangible; i'm not sure any of us who just watch the team can really measure that.

[gam7]

To me, the other thing that would bother me in scouting Mason is that I don't see a lot of passion out of him. When is the last time anybody saw Mason get angry? Get after a teammate verbally? Show some intensity? Get upset about a call? Knock an opponent on his butt when he dares to drive the lane? Nothing seems to draw much of a reaction out of him. Mason as a player, and this team, could use some of that IMO.

I think Mason has been getting better in this regard, though I wouldn't exactly call him demonstrative yet. As the lip-readers out there can attest, Mason clearly was very angry after he fouled out against Carolina. Also, he showed some emotion after he fired that pass to Kyle for a layup in the second half of the Clemson game. And I think it was after an uncontested breakaway dunk against Virginia Tech that I caught a glimpse of Mason's abbreviated version of the Nolan Smith shimmy-shake just before he ran back downcourt. I have seen a couple of other instances of modest displays of emotion during the second half of the season, but can't remember exactly when they were. I think he'll take on more of a vocal and demonstrative role (and he'll be expected to take on such a role) over the next two years.

[tommy]

i think mason has improved immeasurably as far as fouls are concerned.

He's improved. But I don't know about "immeasurably." In ACC play, he has committed 49 fouls in 16 games. That's about 3 per game, in about 26 minutes of action. He has fouled out four times in 16 ACC games, five overall. In our four losses, he fouled out twice (including doing so in 18 minutes at UNC) and had 4 in a third (again, in 18 minutes vs. St. John's.) Overall, better than last year, but still in my mind an area that needs improvement.

[oldnavy]

Bill Guthridge was UNC's big-man coach back when they were churning out the likes of Robert McAdoo, Bobby Jones, Mitch Kupchak, Sam Perkins and Brad Daugherty.

He also was the big man coach when UNC was churning out Geoff Crompton, Pete Budko, Chris Brust and Matt Wenstrom, all of whom were prep All-Americans.

Two points. One doesn't have to be a big man to coach big men. You never can tell with big men. You just never can tell.

Thanks Jim, you made my point.

[jimsumner]

He's improved. But I don't know about "immeasurably." In ACC play, he has committed 49 fouls in 16 games. That's about 3 per game, in about 26 minutes of action. He has fouled out four times in 16 ACC games, five overall. In our four losses, he fouled out twice (including doing so in 18 minutes at UNC) and had 4 in a third (again, in 18 minutes vs. St. John's.) Overall, better than last year, but still in my mind an area that needs improvement.

The problem I see with Mason is that he over-relies on his natural gifts. He's long and quick and can jump out of the gym. So, why bother to block-out?

But you know what? Jerai Grant and Jeff Allen and Tyler Zeller are also long and quick. Got to put a body on them. Can't expect to not move your feet on defense and catch up when you get beat. Not at this level, not all the time. Can't expect to just put in on the floor and elevate over everyone for a dunk. Not in the ACC, not on a regular basis.

Lots of players have this problem early in their careers. It's natural to take the easy way when the easy way works. But when the easy way doesn't work, you need some Plan Bs and Mason is still working on those. He's making progress. But he's still got a ways to go.

[tommy]

The problem I see with Mason is that he over-relies on his natural gifts. He's long and quick and can jump out of the gym. So, why bother to block-out?

But you know what? Jerai Grant and Jeff Allen and Tyler Zeller are also long and quick. Got to put a body on them. Can't expect to not move your feet on defense and catch up when you get beat. Not at this level, not all the time. Can't expect to just put in on the floor and elevate over everyone for a dunk. Not in the ACC, not on a regular basis.

Lots of players have this problem early in their careers. It's natural to take the easy way when the easy way works. But when the easy way doesn't work, you need some Plan Bs and Mason is still working on those. He's making progress. But he's still got a ways to go.

I agree with you. Your terming it as an over-reliance on his natural gifts maybe is another way of saying what I tried to say a few posts back, when I said that he lacks discipline and fundamentals on defense.

Jim, you get to see him up close. I don't. What say you re: the other concern I mentioned with regard to Mason: Do you see/feel passion from this kid? On TV, I don't. What about in person?

[RoyalBlue08]

Who is UNC's big man coach?

You actually got me interested and I tried to find out. I failed, but at least as far as I can find on their website, their coaching staff is filled entirely with ex-guards. That's about as far as I am willing to research this though.

[sporthenry]

Well as much as Mason relies on his athleticism and natural gifts, I feel that he doesn't do it nearly as much as McRoberts did. Mason has tried to develop a shot. He has worked to develop that driving move and it looks like he has worked on squaring up his defender. Mason seems to have put in some work over the summer to develop his game and I think 1 maybe 2 more years and Mason will be able to put it all together. If he develops a jump shot to make big men play him closer than he will be able to use his dribble and that hook will just get better.
His rebounding does leave a little to be desired but he still puts up good numbers and I think his intensity has picked up. And I don't remember all of Mason's 5 fouls but was one of them a legit foul? Pat Forde even twittered or whatever that after his first 2, he wasn't sure either was a foul. He seems to have Zoubek/Miles syndrome where he gets a foul for breathing on a guy.

[Kedsy]

His rebounding does leave a little to be desired

Mason has the 6th best rebound per game average in the ACC, the 5th best defensive rebound %, and the 6th best offensive rebound %. In ACC games alone, he is 5th, 4th, and 3rd, respectively. According to Pomeroy, Mason is the 28th best defensive rebounder in the country.

I'm curious, what would he have to do for you to think his rebounding didn't leave a little to be desired?

[verga]

the only time iv'e seen anything akin to passion from Mason was as he was getting his 5th. foul of the night. Now the foul situation didn't determine the carolina game but Mason got completely hosed on 2 of those. He was truly upset when he went to the bench, good for him.

[jimsumner]

I agree with you. Your terming it as an over-reliance on his natural gifts maybe is another way of saying what I tried to say a few posts back, when I said that he lacks discipline and fundamentals on defense.

Jim, you get to see him up close. I don't. What say you re: the other concern I mentioned with regard to Mason: Do you see/feel passion from this kid? On TV, I don't. What about in person?

You have to be real careful with this one. People display passion in different ways and not all of them are evident. I'm pretty sure Mason cares deeply about his team's success. You don't have to jump up and down and pound your chest to be passionate.

[Newton_14]

You have to be real careful with this one. People display passion in different ways and not all of them are evident. I'm pretty sure Mason cares deeply about his team's success. You don't have to jump up and down and pound your chest to be passionate.

You took the words right out of my mouth Jim. Mason is a very competitive person, his high school coach said he was easily the most competitive player he had ever coached, and no one hating losing worse. It is also unfair to say in one breath "he has shown a nice jump hook", then turn around and say "he has not developed a single reliable post move".

Mason is the center on a jumpshooting oriented team, that rarely looks to the post to score. Kind of hard to score if you do not get the ball. Had Kyrie not gone down, the offensive strategy would have been different, and it would have been better for Mason's development. The kid has improved but he is a work in progress. I agree very much with Jim on the points he made about relying on physical gifts, but he is improving. Some bigs get it overnight and with others it takes time. Mason has become a rebounding machine and over the course of the year has improved with the fouls. Saturday night was a bit of an outlier based on how he has controlled his fouls coming down the stretch, and I thought he got hosed on 3 of those calls, especially the first two.

He has plenty of work yet to do, but the guy will become a beast if he stays in school (which I think he will) and continues to stay on the path he is currently on. He is just a different player with a unique skillset. Raw talent that needs more development. I am still confident Mason evolves into an elite player at Duke.

[sporthenry]

Mason has the 6th best rebound per game average in the ACC, the 5th best defensive rebound %, and the 6th best offensive rebound %. In ACC games alone, he is 5th, 4th, and 3rd, respectively. According to Pomeroy, Mason is the 28th best defensive rebounder in the country.

I'm curious, what would he have to do for you to think his rebounding didn't leave a little to be desired?

Well somebody said he just relies on his athleticism, and perhaps I didn't word it correctly, but Mason does a tremendous job rebounding the ball using his height and athleticism. However, he along with the rest of the bigs tend to lose their man and it leaves to easy baskets. He doesn't neccessarily box out. And I will say that his numbers seem a bit skewed b/c there isn't too much competition for his rebounds.

[Kedsy]

However, he along with the rest of the bigs tend to lose their man and it leaves to easy baskets.

What does this have to do with rebounding?

And I will say that his numbers seem a bit skewed b/c there isn't too much competition for his rebounds.

What does this even mean?