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  1. #3361
    Also since scholarships are technically awarded on a year-by-year basis, I don't see how it wouldn't be legal (sorry for the double negative) for a player suddenly to go off scholarship (whether it was the institution or player deciding it seems inconsequential) and not count towards the limit. That's what happened at UK when Calipari arrived. They were recruited players, and Cal didn't kick them off the team, but told them they no longer have scholarships since they were going to new recruits and there weren't any more available. Those players could make the choice of remaining at UK and be a part of the team, but have to pay their way, or to transfer (and they chose transferring).

    Having said all this, I don't expect it to actually come down to this. I'd be very surprised if Austin or Seth ended up giving up their scholarship. But, based on my understanding, it seems theoretically possible.

    Edit: Here's the NCAA handbook from 2009-10 in case you're interested:
    http://vmedia.rivals.com/uploads/878/957137.pdf
    Last edited by Bluedog; 03-02-2012 at 10:49 AM.

  2. #3362
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Also since scholarships are technically awarded on a year-by-year basis, I don't see how it wouldn't be legal (sorry for the double negative) for a player suddenly to go off scholarship (whether it was the institution or player deciding it seems inconsequential) and not count towards the limit. That's what happened at UK when Calipari arrived. They were recruited players, and Cal didn't kick them off the team, but told them they no longer have scholarships since they were going to new recruits and there weren't any more available. Those players could make the choice of remaining at UK and be a part of the team, but have to pay their way, or to transfer (and they chose transferring).
    Yup. Given that UK situation and the information you provided in your previous post, it all points to the situation of having more than 13 recruited players being permissible so long as only 13 of them receive any sort of aid in that year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    Sounds nice on paper but in the real world $56,000 is not something even an NBA player or coaches son would easily give back to an institution after it was offered.
    Yes, everything being discussed is entirely hypothetical. And it would need to be based on the player's decision to do it (i.e., not something suggested or encouraged by the coaching staff). Realistically, it's probably not a scenario that would play out. The more likely scenario is one of the following:
    a. One of Rivers or Mason goes pro and the scholarship issue disappears (or we have another year of both Rivers and Plumlee
    b. Both Rivers and Mason return and we have only one scholarship free
    c. One or both of Rivers and Mason go pro and we don't get any more players for next year (I think/hope this is least likely of the three)

  3. #3363
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Triangle
    Here is a bit on Amile Jefferson - http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/03/d...me-is-a-charm/ This kid is long and has a silky smooth game and he is a top notch student as well. A good fit for Duke, so make him feel welcome this weekend.

  4. #3364
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The more likely scenario is one of the following:
    a. One of Rivers or Mason goes pro and the scholarship issue disappears (or we have another year of both Rivers and Plumlee
    b. Both Rivers and Mason return and we have only one scholarship free
    c. One or both of Rivers and Mason go pro and we don't get any more players for next year (I think/hope this is least likely of the three)
    Agree that one of these will happen.

    Just to be absolutely clear, reference in (b) is to one scholarship in addition to Sulaimon's, yes?

  5. #3365
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    Northern VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    Sounds nice on paper but in the real world $56,000 is not something even an NBA player or coaches son would easily give back to an institution after it was offered.
    I understand your point, but remember that Doc has had many years in and then coaching for the NBA. Also, there's a very real expectation that his son will very shortly be reaping in the lottery-pick millions. So you're actually looking at TWO NBA incomes. Also, recall the 'bazz is saying that AR is pushing for him to come to Duke (so that they can play together). If you're AR and Doc, and you really believe that getting SM gives you a much better chance to get to a FF or even NC, then I don't think it is really a stretch that they'd be willing to forego one year's scholly money. Hell, Melchionni did it in order to play at Duke (though he wasn't the last kid to commit that year), and while comfortable, I don't think they're as well off as the Rivers family...

    Just saying that it is an option.

    BTW, I know in some sports a single scholarship can be (and often are) split among multiple players. That sorta opens an option to for the burden to be spread across more than one very generous current player.

    Bottom line, I have absolutely no doubt that K and staff have a plan in place for this scenario (if they get 2 more commits and nobody else leaves, other than MP1).
    Last edited by -bdbd; 03-02-2012 at 12:19 PM.

  6. #3366
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    BTW, I know in some sports a single scholarship can be (and often are) split among multiple players. That sorta opens an option to for the burden to be spread across more than one very generous current player.
    That's not possible in basketball as basketball is a "head count" sport. (Not saying you were saying it was possible in basketball, but just clarifying.) That is, anybody that receives ANY athletic scholarship (whether it be $1 or $50,000) counts as 1 towards the 13 limit. Other sports are "equivalency" sports, where a limit of 10 "full scholarships" can be split among more than 10 individuals. The head count sports are football, men's basketball, women's basketball, women's tennis, women's volleyball, and women's gymnastics. Thus, in those sports, it is advantageous to the university to offer full rides to lure the best talent. All other sports are equivalency sports.

    http://www.ncsasports.org/blog/2009/...s-equivalency/

  7. #3367
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    Agree that one of these will happen.

    Just to be absolutely clear, reference in (b) is to one scholarship in addition to Sulaimon's, yes?
    Yes. I'm already assuming the scholarship for Sulaimon. So that one is not free. With Sulaimon, Rivers, and Mason all on the squad next year, we have 12 scholarships accounted for and thus one free one (unless someone decides to forego the scholarship or transfer - neither of which I assume to be likely).

  8. #3368
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Arlington, VA
    Just because somebody could pay their own way, doesn't mean they should or would. Granted it would be slightly different if one of the players or his family went to the program and offered to give up a scholarship, but for the program to approach a recruited player and even bring up the possibility of giving up a scholarship would be poor form. Either way, Duke and Coach K shouldn't let it happen. Remember when Kentucky did it a couple seasons ago and how everyone went after Calipari for having no loyalty, which was likely some of the impetus for the recent multi-year scholarship proposals. It's would also seem very Miami Heat-ish. "Everyone else has 13 scholarship players, but Austin and Mason, you're really good and can afford it, so why not take less money [pay your own way], and that way we can have 14 scholarship-quality players and make our own super team.". Count me among the people that want to see Duke win playing by the same rules as everyone else and not by staying within the letter, not spirit, of the rules.

  9. #3369

    Scholarships

    Maybe we just sign Amile to a football scholarship and have him redshirt as a wideout. He could always walk-on to the basketball team.

    What happens to the scholarship if a scholarship player qualifies for a full-academic scholarship after enrolling?

  10. #3370
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    North Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by MIKESJ73 View Post
    Maybe we just sign Amile to a football scholarship and have him redshirt as a wideout. He could always walk-on to the basketball team.

    What happens to the scholarship if a scholarship player qualifies for a full-academic scholarship after enrolling?
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  11. #3371
    Quote Originally Posted by MIKESJ73 View Post
    Maybe we just sign Amile to a football scholarship and have him redshirt as a wideout. He could always walk-on to the basketball team.

    What happens to the scholarship if a scholarship player qualifies for a full-academic scholarship after enrolling?
    If a player is recruited and they receive any aid from the university (need-based, academic, athletic) it counts against the scholarship limit. Otherwise, that would be a major loophole that schools would undoubtedly abuse. Specifically to Duke, there also aren't have any academic scholarships that are awarded after enrollment that I'm aware of. They're all selected prior to matriculation. (The Baldwin Scholars program is an exception, but there is no monetary reward with that program. And it's all female so obviously a male basketball player wouldn't qualify.)

  12. #3372
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC

    Majoring in...

    Quote Originally Posted by wilko View Post
    Opstay! Ontday ivegay Entuckykay ideasway onway owhay otay ebay etterbay atway eatingchay
    Careful. I think that Pig Latin may in fact be an available major at the University of Kentucky.

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  13. #3373
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    Inman, SC & Fort Myers, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by ikiru36 View Post
    Careful. I think that Pig Latin may in fact be an available major at the University of Kentucky.
    True, but it is available only for Upper-division students, so few BB players qualify.

  14. #3374
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    Apr 2008
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    Jacksonville, NC
    Just saw that Amile Jefferson and Shabazz Muhammad are at the viewing of the Back to Back documentary on '91-'92 Championship teams. That can't be a bad thing.

  15. #3375
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    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Edit: Here's the NCAA handbook from 2009-10 in case you're interested:
    http://vmedia.rivals.com/uploads/878/957137.pdf
    Interesting, thanks for doing the digging. I looked through the relevant sections, and can't find anything that is clear one way or the other. It's clear that a recruited player can stops being a "counter" once he relinquishes his scholarship AND withdraws from the team...

    Quote Originally Posted by NCAA
    15.5.1.5 Cancellation of Aid. Once an individual becomes a counter in a head-count sport (see Bylaws
    15.5.2, 15.5.4, 15.5.5, 15.5.7), the individual normally continues as a counter for the remainder of the academic year. However, if he or she voluntarily withdraws from the team prior to the first day of classes or before the first contest of the season (whichever is earlier) and releases the institution from its obligation to provide financial aid, the individual no longer would be considered a counter (see Bylaws 15.5.2.2 and 15.5.6.4.1)
    ...but various sections such as the following indicate that in different situations, at least, a recruited "non-counter" goes back to being a "counter" the moment they participate in a game:

    Quote Originally Posted by NCAA
    15.5.1.4 Aid Not Renewed, Successful Appeal. If an institution does not renew financial aid for a counter in a following year, and a hearing before the institution’s regular financial aid authority results in a successful appeal for restoration of aid, the student-athlete shall continue to be a counter if the individual continues to receive athletically related financial aid. However, the student-athlete shall not be a counter if he or she receives institutionally arranged or awarded, nonathletically related financial aid available to all students, provided such financial aid was granted or arranged without regard in any degree to athletics ability. If the student-athlete ever participates again in intercollegiate athletics at that institution, he or she will be considered to have been a counter during each year the financial aid was received.
    ... but nothing really addresses a scenario in which a previous "counter" relinquishes his scholarship, gets no additional aid, and still plays on the team.

    FWIW, as far as I can tell, neither the Melchionni case (Duke only had 12 recruited players total, he only paid his own way to subvert the 5/8 scholarship role), nor the Drummond case (UConn only has 11 recruited players total), nor the Calipari-housecleaning case (those players were effectively forced out and left the school to make room, they didn't stay on the team without scholarships) show any precedent for getting around the 13 "counters" rule.

    However, the reason I'm so confident that Rivers/Curry couldn't pay their way in order for Duke to take on a 14th recruit is because I'm fairly certain that this has been confirmed several times already by people much more knowledgeable and experienced than I am. We need Jim Sumner or someone to chime in here.
    Last edited by Greg_Newton; 03-02-2012 at 10:34 PM.

  16. #3376
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    Feb 2007
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    Northern VA

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    ... but nothing really addresses a scenario in which a previous "counter" relinquishes his scholarship, gets no additional aid, and still plays on the team.

    However, the reason I'm so confident that Rivers/Curry couldn't pay their way in order for Duke to take on a 14th recruit is because I'm fairly certain that this has been previously confirmed by people more knowledgeable and experienced than me. We need Jim Sumner or someone similar to chime in here.
    However, I've not yet seen anything to adequately explain how Duke was able to do it with Lee Melchionni several years ago, but wouldn't somehow be able to do it with Rivers or Curry now. That reasoning seems inconsistent at a minimum... Lee was most certainly a "recruited" player (if I remember correctly, he was even a top-100 recruit in his class). Incredible selflessness from him and his family, if you ask me.



    Trust me, K has a plan, otherwise we wouldn't still be ardently recruiting these three young gentlemen...
    (and it is well thought out, well researched, and vetted with the NCAA).
    Last edited by -bdbd; 03-02-2012 at 10:43 PM.

  17. #3377
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    Feb 2009
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    Nashville
    ^I edited my post above to show this, but Duke only had 12 recruited players in 2002-2003, counting Melchionni. The only reason he payed his own way was to get around the 5/8 scholarship rule.

  18. #3378
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    However, I've not yet seen anything to adequately explain how Duke was able to do it with Lee Melchionni several years ago, but wouldn't somehow be able to do it with Rivers or Curry now. That reasoning seems inconsistent at a minimum... Lee was most certainly a "recruited" player (if I remember correctly, he was even a top-100 recruit in his class). Incredible selflessness from him and his family, if you ask me.



    Trust me, K has a plan, otherwise we wouldn't still be ardently recruiting these three young gentlemen...
    Im hazy and could definitely be wrong, but wasnt the difference that Melchionni payed his way FIRST? He didn't take a scholarship and then relinquish it to pay for school.
    Last edited by theAlaskanBear; 03-02-2012 at 10:44 PM. Reason: speeling nad garmmar

  19. #3379
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    Feb 2008
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    Lewisville, NC
    I guess it's of some interest to try and find loopholes in the 13 scholarship limit, but I'd be shocked if Coach K were actually to bring in a large enough 2012 class to have to use such a loophole.

    Personally, I'd be quite happy to see the return of Austin and Mason and the addition of Amile Jefferson to complete the 2012 class.

  20. #3380
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    Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    However, I've not yet seen anything to adequately explain how Duke was able to do it with Lee Melchionni several years ago, but wouldn't somehow be able to do it with Rivers or Curry now. That reasoning seems inconsistent at a minimum... Lee was most certainly a "recruited" player (if I remember correctly, he was even a top-100 recruit in his class). Incredible selflessness from him and his family, if you ask me.



    Trust me, K has a plan, otherwise we wouldn't still be ardently recruiting these three young gentlemen...
    (and it is well thought out, well researched, and vetted with the NCAA).
    I think that the distinction is that Duke didn't technically "recruit" Melchionni. He was a legacy player who Duke was happy to have on the team but probably wouldn't have necessarily sought him out if not for his father. Not to say that he wasn't a decent player but there were probably several similar level players in his class he didn't fit a particular need. Since his father was a former player and Duke had an available scholarship (the 5/8 rule not withstanding) he was offered a spot.

    I think that this wasn't an issue because Melichionni was a top 100 recruit. Since Bazz is a top 5 recruit, that may raise a few more eyebrows.

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