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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gw67 View Post
    I didn’t see any mention on the DBR front page or in the links they provided, but the Basketball Hall of Fame named Vasquez the winner of the Bob Cousy Award as the nation’s best point guard. Vasquez played under more control during his senior year and, IMO, is deserving of the awards he has received this year. His best skill was his passing and, like Cousy, he made his teammates better.

    As one of the few on this board who saw Cousy play, I recall not only his behind-the-back passes to Sharman and others but the rainbow 30-foot one handers he would shoot coming into the frontcourt when the defender played back as well as the running hook shots with either hand. It was a very different era.

    http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskb...040110aaa.html

    I also note that Hayes of Maryland won the 3-point contest at the site of the Final Four. Hayes had a very solid senior year and was one of the most efficient offensive players in the ACC this past year.

    http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskb...040110aab.html

    gw67
    Vasquez himself admitted that he screwed the pooch by getting carried away with himself at the end of the Michigan St. game and tried to win it by himself, which cost Maryland a decent chance.

    The two shots he made to beat Duke, the first was a difficult but for him decent shot. The second was not. It was a one in twenty. Both went in and he was a hero. The second shot stunk.

    Efficiency as measured over a season, yes, I'll give that to Greivas. Game winning shots, difficult ones, yes; terrifically efficient because the odds concerning game-winners become great at lower percentages if other guys on the team are not given the chance when they clearly have a better look, which somehow never happened when Greivas had the ball.

    Which, again leads me to what I regard as a shortfall, game losing play in the final minutes of close games; he lead the league.

    Gary was willing to live and die with Greivas and Greivas was ready to try. He was and remains a consumate showman, at least on this level.

    In the world of entertainment, those figures compute to awards, showmanship sells, just as Cousy's behind-the-back passes, unnecesasary as they were, sold.

    BTW, I too was old enough. Cousy and Sharmon were a great, great backcourt. The second best backcourt of their era, imo. The best backcourt of their era, imo, was on the same team, that would be KC and Sam.

    KC was the first lockdown defender I ever saw, and plain wore people down. He was a Champion before he ever met Red, and was a marvel to watch. I can't image that opponents did not sigh with relief when the "starter" returned.

  2. #22
    No surprise there. Congrats to him. He had a fantastic season.

  3. #23
    Yeah congrats to Turner, he had a hell of a year!

  4. #24
    Congrats to Greivis Vasquez! In a down ACC year, I am glad there are some players walking away with national hardware. As much as I hate Maryland, I will pull for Vasquez on the next level! He's made his share of mistakes, but he is a very honest, open, and self-aware kid.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by theAlaskanBear View Post
    Congrats to Greivis Vasquez! In a down ACC year, I am glad there are some players walking away with national hardware. As much as I hate Maryland, I will pull for Vasquez on the next level! He's made his share of mistakes, but he is a very honest, open, and self-aware kid.
    Hope he makes it too.

  6. #26
    How could Luke Harangody possibly receive even one vote for this. He was a third-team all-american, and he might not have even deserved that.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by dukeblue4ever View Post
    How could Luke Harangody possibly receive even one vote for this. He was a third-team all-american, and he might not have even deserved that.
    undercover fan

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Vasquez himself admitted that he screwed the pooch by getting carried away with himself at the end of the Michigan St. game and tried to win it by himself, which cost Maryland a decent chance.
    If this is at all true, I'd like to see a link, because I don't buy it for a second. It's also factually inaccurate - Vasquez did nothing to "screw the pooch" at the end of the MSU game, and was the sole reason they were in it at all. With 5:06 to play, Maryland was down 12. Vasquez hit two free throws, then assisted a Hayes 3 on the next possession. The next two positions got a layup by Bowie and a missed jumper by Jordan Williams. MSU scored a couple times in that stretch, making it a 9 point game with 2:00 to play. The next possession, Vasquez got a three point play. Immediately thereafter, he got a steal and assist on Mosley's layup. The next Maryland possession was after a steal by Tucker, who missed a layup. MSU turned it over on the rebound, after which Vasquez immediately hit a 3. On Maryland's next possession, Bowie missed a shot, but Vasquez got a bucket after Tucker's offensive rebound. After Michigan State took the lead with :20 to play, Vasquez picked up a go-ahead layup with :06 left.

    So in case you're scoring at home, in the last five minutes, he scored 12 points on 4-4 shooting plus 3-3 from the line, and assisted two other baskets. And the team as a whole scored 19 points in 10 possessions, which is extraordinarily good. Maybe he did try to win it himself, but he did an awfully good job of doing so, don't you think?
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil in the Blue Dress View Post
    It's disappointing that Jon didn't get this one, but he may go home with something all the aforementioned wish they had: NC ring.
    Actually Sherron does have a ring...I understand your point though.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Vasquez himself admitted that he screwed the pooch by getting carried away with himself at the end of the Michigan St. game and tried to win it by himself, which cost Maryland a decent chance.
    How did he screw the pooch at the end of the MSU game? In the last two minutes, Vasquez did the following:

    made 2 pointer (fouled, and made the FT)
    made 3 pointer
    made 2 pointer (to give them the lead)
    made 2 pointer (to give them the lead with little time left)

    The kid missed one shot and had no turnovers in the last 10 minutes of the game, and on that one miss he got the rebound and was fouled. He was flawless down the stretch.

    You could argue that he screwed the pooch early in the game, when he missed a bunch of shots. But he was the only reason they had a chance toward the end of that game. And his overall performance (9-20, 26 pts, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 3 steals, 3 turnovers) was pretty awesome.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    If this is at all true, I'd like to see a link, because I don't buy it for a second. It's also factually inaccurate - Vasquez did nothing to "screw the pooch" at the end of the MSU game, and was the sole reason they were in it at all. With 5:06 to play, Maryland was down 12. Vasquez hit two free throws, then assisted a Hayes 3 on the next possession. The next two positions got a layup by Bowie and a missed jumper by Jordan Williams. MSU scored a couple times in that stretch, making it a 9 point game with 2:00 to play. The next possession, Vasquez got a three point play. Immediately thereafter, he got a steal and assist on Mosley's layup. The next Maryland possession was after a steal by Tucker, who missed a layup. MSU turned it over on the rebound, after which Vasquez immediately hit a 3. On Maryland's next possession, Bowie missed a shot, but Vasquez got a bucket after Tucker's offensive rebound. After Michigan State took the lead with :20 to play, Vasquez picked up a go-ahead layup with :06 left.

    So in case you're scoring at home, in the last five minutes, he scored 12 points on 4-4 shooting plus 3-3 from the line, and assisted two other baskets. And the team as a whole scored 19 points in 10 possessions, which is extraordinarily good. Maybe he did try to win it himself, but he did an awfully good job of doing so, don't you think?
    He said it; I don't do links. Wouldn't know how to find it. You do. Look and you will. I did not watch the game. I know that he took I believe a number of extraordianry iimprovident shots during the game, admittedly after the fact because he wanted tio win it for his team.

    Making ego-driven poor choices in big games because your coach "trusts" you is a betrayal of your teammates. I don't care how often you might let them do their thing at other times. You covet the moment to the detriment of making the play that reason dictates you are a loose cannon, not to be celebrated with an award such as this, in my view. MJ passed the damn thing to Kerr and Paxton to win two different championships. Gave each the last shot. One of them had been off the entire game (I think it was Paxton). Greivas never does that.

    Greivas is celebrated for his performance against Duke that lead to the victory. The winning shot was a terrible one that happened to go in. Stars should be made of better stuff. That's just my view. I understand yours. That's what makes ball games.

    Finally, while Greivas is an incredibly winsome personality and an extraordinary showman, I do not think that there is a single coach who had a team that went deep into the tournament who would chose him for their team. Not one. Gary did not go deep. He lived by the sword and died by it.

    I forget, who won the three point contest last night. Oh, Greivas's backcourt mate the last four years. Tell me that the guy wasn't open. I dare you. That was why Greivas apologized. Look, you'll find it.
    Last edited by greybeard; 04-02-2010 at 05:31 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    He said it; I don't do links. Wouldn't know how to find it. You do. Look and you will. I did not watch the game. I know that he took I believe two extraordianry iimprovident shots to end the game that ended Maryland's chances. He did the same thing against Duke and made them. You live with poor choices in crunch time and you lose with it. MJ passed the damn thing to Kerr and Paxton to win two championships. Greivas never does that. I forget, who won the three point contest. Oh, his teammate the last four years. Tell me that the guy wasn't open. I dare you.
    This is simply wrong. It can't possibly be right. He didn't miss any shots in the last 5 minutes of the game. To the contrary, he was, as I (and CDu) pointed out, 4-4 from the field, 3-3 from the line, and hit the shot the put Maryland ahead with 6 seconds to play. How in the world could he have ended Maryland's chances at the end of the Michigan State game?
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    He said it; I don't do links. Wouldn't know how to find it. You do. Look and you will. I did not watch the game. I know that he took I believe two extraordianry iimprovident shots to end the game that ended Maryland's chances. He did the same thing against Duke and made them. You win with poor choices in crunch time sometimes when they work and you lose with them when they don't.

    Making poor choices at crunch time because your coach "trusts" you is a betrayal of your teammates. I don't care how often you might let them do their thing at other times. You covet the moment to the detriment of making the play that reason dictates you are a loose cannon, not to be celebrated with an award such as this, in my view. MJ passed the damn thing to Kerr and Paxton to win two different championships. Gave each the last shot. One of them had been off the entire game (I think it was Paxton). Greivas never does that.

    I forget, who won the three point contest last night. Oh, Greivas's backcourt mate the last four years. Tell me that the guy wasn't open. I dare you. That was why Greivas apologized. Look, you'll find it.
    First of all, his name is Greivis, not Greivas.

    Second of all, if you didn't watch the game, how do you "know that he took I believe two extraordianry iimprovident shots to end the game that ended Maryland's chances?"

    Third of all, you might want to check your facts. He didn't take any shots down the stretch that ended up hurting his team. He made EVERY shot he took in the final 5 minutes, including his last two which gave Maryland the lead in the final minute. And the only shot he missed in the final 11 minutes he rebounded and drew a foul.

    He also committed no turnovers in the final 5 minutes.

    Here's the play-by-play for your reference:
    http://espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=300800120

    Vasquez most certainly did not do anything to lose them that game in crunch time. In fact, the only time Maryland didn't score in the last 11 minutes of the game were when someone other than Vasquez shot.

    Maryland lost this game long before the final minutes. If anything, Vasquez was phenomenal in almost bailing this team out from a terrible first 30 minutes.
    Last edited by CDu; 04-02-2010 at 05:38 PM.

  14. #34
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    Please substitute this for the last post

    So in case you're scoring at home, in the last five minutes, he scored 12 points on 4-4 shooting plus 3-3 from the line, and assisted two other baskets. And the team as a whole scored 19 points in 10 possessions, which is extraordinarily good. Maybe he did try to win it himself, but he did an awfully good job of doing so, don't you think?[/QUOTE]

    No. I don't think that a guy who occupies the ball to the exclusion of his teammates does a pretty good job of anything except feeding his ego. You say that Greivas took and missed a number of improvident shots earlier in the game but scored the ball down the stretch well. What I heard him say in a replay of an after the game comment was that he had gotten carried away in trying to win it by himself and blew it. He apologized to his teammates for it.

    Making ego-driven poor choices in big games because your coach "trusts" you is a betrayal of your teammates. I don't care how often you might let them do their thing at other times. You covet the moment to the detriment of making the play that reason dictates you are a loose cannon, not to be celebrated with an award such as this, in my view. MJ passed the damn thing to Kerr and Paxton to win two different championships. Gave each the last shot. One of them had been off the entire game (I think it was Paxton). Greivas never does that.

    Greivas is celebrated for his performance against Duke that lead to the victory. The winning shot was a terrible one that happened to go in. Stars should be made of better stuff. That's just my view. I understand yours. That's what makes ball games.

    Finally, while Greivas is an incredibly winsome personality and an extraordinary showman, I do not think that there is a single coach who had a team that went deep into the tournament who would chose him for their team. Not one. Gary did not go deep. He lived by the sword and died by it.

    Oh, one other thing, I forget for a second, who won the three point contest last night. Oh, Greivas's backcourt mate the last four years. Tell me that the guy wasn't open down the stretch. I dare you.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    He said it; I don't do links. Wouldn't know how to find it. You do. Look and you will. I did not watch the game. I know that he took I believe a number of extraordianry iimprovident shots during the game. Admitted after the game that he wanted to lift his team to victory and got carried away, that he made poor choices and apologized to his teammates for it.
    Again, if you didn't watch the game, how are you in any position to know whether or not he took any ill-advised shots during the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Oh, one other thing, I forget for a second, who won the three point contest last night. Oh, Greivas's backcourt mate the last four years. Tell me that the guy wasn't open down the stretch. I dare you.
    Maryland scored 19 points in 10 possessions down the stretch. That's phenomenal efficiency. Their efficiency was even better when Vasquez shot. Why do you think that he should have passed up those shots to give Hayes the shot at the end? Do you think Hayes would hit at higher than a 67% rate from 3? Because that's the percentage Hayes would have had to hit to outdo Vasquez down the stretch.

    I think perhaps you're letting your personal biases against Vasquez cloud your judgment, and lead you to conclusions without looking at the facts.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Oh, one other thing, I forget for a second, who won the three point contest last night. Oh, Greivas's backcourt mate the last four years. Tell me that the guy wasn't open down the stretch. I dare you.
    He wasn't open down the stretch. Of course, since, as you have repeatedly said, you didn't watch the game, you have absolutely know way to know.

    Also, you have no idea what my point is. My point is a very simple one: Vasquez did not lose the MSU game for Maryland by taking improvident shots down the stretch. That is a point that cannot rationally be refuted.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  17. #37
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    I apologize. I heard Greivis apologize for having taken bad shots because his ego got the best of him and assumed that he was referring to shots down the stretch. When someone pointed out that that wasn't the case, I tried to correct my post but the board would not accept the correction, probably because a response had already been filed.

    My opinion about Greivis is not strongly held and stems from my dislike of ego driven play, especially by the guy to whom a coach gives the responsibility of controlling the ball. Gary obviously has a different perspective.

    Greivis has a number of talents including, when he is of a mind to, to give it up with touch and vision to a teammate who is in a position to create. When he is playing like that, and takes his shots in the flow of the game, I enjoy his game very much.

    Scoring 5 baskets in a row does not impress me, nor do I think that it produces winning teams. I certainly would not enjoy being on the floor when Greivas decides to go off on one of his toots.

    Others see the game and enjoy it from different perspectives. Many in DC thought Gilbert was all that. He was as spectacular a one-on-one player as I've ever seen. I thought he was poison for the Wizards and gave the team's inside players no chance, none, to compete and enjoy the game.

    Greivis has talents with respect to playing a team game that Gilbert lacks.

    I do not think that Greivis's solo game comes anywhere near great. I think that his desire to play it is a serious and out-of-control flaw. For those who think that he is a JWill, I think that he is not even in the same league. In addition, I might remind you that JWill found that that aspect of his game did not play so well on the next level.

    Well, that's about it.

    My apologies to all of you for speaking without facts to make a point that was both incorrect and superfluous to my perspective of Greivis's value as a player. The former is poor form in the extreme on this forum and the latter, not to put too fine a line on it, was just plain stupid.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    My apologies to all of you for speaking without facts to make a point that was both incorrect and superfluous to my perspective of Greivis's value as a player. The former is poor form in the extreme on this forum and the latter, not to put too fine a line on it, was just plain stupid.
    No need to apologize.

    For what it's worth, I completely agree that Vasquez is a fantastic player when he's distributing and taking his shots within the flow of the game. I agree that he has at times shot the team out of some games. His skill, guts, and creativity in carrying a very mediocre Maryland team (though I also agree that Hayes is very underrated and a capable shooter/score in his own right) has been both a blessing and a curse, because while he's capable of carrying the team to improbable victories (see the wins over UNC in previous years), he's also capable of shooting them out of games (see some of the Duke games). We can disagree on the overall team value of a player like Vasquez (I don't think there is an unequivocally right answer), but there's no question that he costs them games at times.

    And I agree that the "ego game" is not superior to the team game. It's always easier for five guys to win than one guy (unless there is a specific matchup that can be easily exploited to the benefit of the team).

    It's just that crunch time of the MSU game was just unfortunately not a good example of this. He was the good Vasquez - creating for others while also hitting the big shots when the team needed him to do so. The problem was that Maryland dug such a big hole with bad defense earlier in the game (48 first half points allowed) that it took a terrific late charge to catch up.
    Last edited by CDu; 04-02-2010 at 07:30 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    No need to apologize.

    For what it's worth, I completely agree that Vasquez is a fantastic player when he's distributing and taking his shots within the flow of the game. I agree that he has at times shot the team out of some games. His skill, guts, and creativity in carrying a very mediocre Maryland team (though I also agree that Hayes is very underrated and a capable shooter/score in his own right) has been both a blessing and a curse, because while he's capable of carrying the team to improbable victories (see the wins over UNC in previous years), he's also capable of shooting them out of games (see some of the Duke games). We can disagree on the overall team value of a player like Vasquez (I don't think there is an unequivocally right answer), but there's no question that he costs them games at times.

    And I agree that the "ego game" is not superior to the team game. It's always easier for five guys to win than one guy (unless there is a specific matchup that can be easily exploited to the benefit of the team).

    It's just that crunch time of the MSU game was just unfortunately not a good example of this. He was the good Vasquez - creating for others while also hitting the big shots when the team needed him to do so. The problem was that Maryland dug such a big hole with bad defense earlier in the game (48 first half points allowed) that it took a terrific late charge to catch up.
    Done! Sorry I missed it.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I apologize. I heard Greivis apologize for having taken bad shots because his ego got the best of him and assumed that he was referring to shots down the stretch. When someone pointed out that that wasn't the case, I tried to correct my post but the board would not accept the correction, probably because a response had already been filed.
    Yeah, no need to apologize. For what it's worth, I shared many of your views on Vasquez for the first three years of his career. He was an extremely inefficient player, who dominated the ball too much and took too many bad shots. To his credit, I thought he improved greatly in that regard in his senior year, especially in ACC play.

    Whether he still dominated the ball too much is an open question. Many of the guys on the team were not creators - I'd say other than Mosley (and occasionally posts by Williams), they didn't have another guy who could successfully get his own shot on a consistent basis. You mentioned Hayes in your earlier post - he's a great example. I think part of the reason he scored so efficiently is because Vasquez created a lot of wide open looks for him. Whether the team would have been better or worse had Vasquez deferred to his teammates is unclear - yes, he probably passed up better opportunities that a teammate had to take a more difficult shot himself on more than one occasion. But his ability to create and to score on even difficult shots made guys pay more attention to him, and opened up looks for his teammates even more - if he started to constantly defer, defenses would adjust and those looks would disappear.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

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