Duke Endowment

[unexpected]

Endowments spend approximately 5% of their earnings every year. Some years they may do better, some years they do worse. And yes, here's an academic paper that talks about this figure:

http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp0413s.pdf

as for the 40k, I don't know if you went to Duke or not, but at Duke, they are included in the invoice. You will literally get a bill for about 21k every semester. Duke students are forced to live on campus for 3 years, and get dining plans for those years as well, so it's not easily broken up into "tuition" and "room and board."

As giving everyone scholarships, some schools do that already. Off of the top of my head, Cooper Union is free for everyone, and I think there was an engineering school in Boston that was recently started that also did that. Neither of this schools are really vanguards because of this.

Honestly, I again make my point that there's no point giving scholarships to those that don't need it. I would estimate that 20-30% of Duke students don't even qualify for financial aid. Why give them scholarships if they don't need it?

The things I would like to see with financial aid: Keep the same system, but make it more grants, and not loans. Loans suck. We're headed in the right direction, with the $400 million financial aid initiative, but we can always try to do better.

In any case, I think it'll be a while before we see significant change. I think Duke's big donors are a little "Duked Out." We've just recently built the LSRC, the Fitzpatrick Center, the French Science Building, Keohane Quad, the BellTower, the BC Plaza, and now we're starting on Central. We also recently (2002, i think) finished the $2 billion endowment initiative.

It just goes to show that you can never have too much money.

[gus]

He cites estimates that colleges like Harvard could conceivably abolish tuition altogether.

I wonder what kind of impact that would have on alumni donations.

How angry would you be if, after spending 6 figures, and likely having debt close to that as well, you found out students coming in after you would not have to pay tuition at all.

Would you be more or less likely to donate?

[tecumseh]

What I would propose is a 5 year plan for Duke. You pay no tution but you pay room and board (and we inflate that a little) for four years. During your stay at Duke you are required to give one year of community service to Durham, the US or the world.

What would happen?
1) The student pool would grow and Duke would move to the top of US News and World Report. Duke would attract the cream of the crop.
2) The campus would be a little older a lot mature and a little more multicultural
3) Alumni giving would go up
4) There would be a greater sense of community at Duke, more pride in being a Duke grad and Duke grads would go out into the world with a greater sense of purpose

Dream on
1) There would be many people who would tutor in the Durham School District and relations between town and gown would improve.
2) I picture a Jewish American Princess shoveling night soil in SE Asia and learning to like it.
3) I picture member of the lacrosse team tutoring and coaching on an Indian Reservation and leading them to the state title and loving it.

[unexpected]

Your dream is more akin to a real liberal arts school. I could see what you propose taking place at a Middlebury or a Swarthmore, but Duke is trying to be a cutting-edge research institution.

This would also be a cutting departure from the current make up of the student body. When I graduated, over 50% of my class (2006) went to work in NYC or DC. Another 25% went to med school or law school, and I think 15% was "other."

The last number 10%, was the percentage that went to grad school. It seems that Duke has very few students that study a field for the love of it. It just seemed that Duke was one giant pre-professional school.

In any case, this relates to your post because I honestly think that if we were required to give a year of service, 50% of the students would bail.

I know it's fun to think of that one student that's really smart, and gets accepted, but can't afford it, so he has to go to State U, and now, suddenly, with this plan, these problems are avoided, but I think this idea doesn't exist in reality.

There are already mechanisms in place to help those who can't afford Duke.

[tecumseh]

Actually the subject came up when I was talking to someone who was the CFO of a small liberal arts college and we were talking about Grinnell College.
You make a legitimate point of Duke being a research institute and this is what is happening money is shifted from teaching undergrads to research and graduate studies. But is this what the founders wanted? Harvard in particular is reexaming its approach to undergraduate studies but perhaps Duke should also.

Students "bailing" ....Great I will help them pack their Lexus...we want a different student body one perhaps that is not entirely self centered that is the point. If you look at the competiveness at Cooper Union, Olin College, Mayo Clinic Medical School, I think it is safe to say that competitiveness to get in would go way up as would the matriculation rate. Plus it has an awful lot to do with how much hardship the extra year is perceived to have, if you learn Mandarin while working in China it may have real benefit.

Mechanisms for those who can't afford Duke. Not really for high middle plus income class people with several kids. This is the group that produces many of the top students. These students would flock to a "tuition optional" top twenty university.

[unexpected]

Mechanisms for those who can't afford Duke. Not really for high middle plus income class people with several kids. This is the group that produces many of the top students. These students would flock to a "tuition optional" top twenty university.

Do you have any data to support this, specifically to Duke? Or is it just anecdotal conjecture?

[tecumseh]

I was having a discussion recently with an admissions officer. I was bemoaning the fact that Duke does not give merit scholarships (there is the Angie Duke and Reggie Howard but these are pretty limited) and how the students who I try to recruit from this area to go to Duke end up with generous merit packages and thus cross Duke off the list. She says yeah it happens often and frankly it does not make sense for some families to pay for a Duke education when others can be gotten for much less.

[hurleyfor3]

Duke used to have quite a few merit scholarships. Then they gave one to me.

[unexpected]

As a sort of halfway point, look at Rice University. While they're not tuition free, their tuition is much cheaper than other universities of it's comparable class (about 20k a year).

Yet, even though its 20k a year cheaper, you don't see people choosing Rice over Duke and Harvard, and its academic ranking hasn't vaulted up.

[hurleyfor3]

Yet, even though its 20k a year cheaper, you don't see people choosing Rice over Duke and Harvard

Actually, I know a few.

[unexpected]

Yes, there will always be a few. I guess my point could be restated as:

"Even though Rice costs 1/2 as much, you don't see the groundswelling of support for people to go to Rice. You don't see students desperately wanting to get into Rice as opposed to Princeton or Harvard, and you haven't seen Rice rise in the rankings."

It seems perenially stuck in the 8-13 bracket.

[tecumseh]

Rice is relatively inexpensive but if you live in Texas UT in Austin is still much cheaper and is a world class university. In marketing and sales that middle ground is often a hard place to be. What I was proposing is tution free so Duke would be less expensive than state schools would in fact be the least expensive option. If you notice the rankings of schools don't change much no matter what in order for Duke to move amongst the HYP they would need to do something really radical this would fit the bill.

[Jarhead]

I think I have gotten into a debate with FDA's twin.

Actually the subject came up when I was talking to someone who was the CFO of a small liberal arts college and we were talking about Grinnell College.

What is it about Grinnell College that makes you think we should be modeling Duke after Grinnell. I don't see any validity in that comparison. The roles of the two institutions are very different.

You make a legitimate point of Duke being a research institute and this is what is happening money is shifted from teaching undergrads to research and graduate studies. But is this what the founders wanted?

Please give me an example of money being shifted from teaching to research. Isn't it true that most of Duke's research is funded through government and corporate grants and contracts, and through designated gifts? There is also likely to be endowment earnings designated for research. Other than research done by degree candidates and the research expected to be done by faculty, what other research is going on, and how is it funded? Can any of this be shifted to cover the teaching of undergrads? What departments are in dire need of additional funds for teaching of undergrads? I would expect that these needs are covered by unrestricted donations and earnings including tuition, university enterprises, state funds, investments, and whatever endowments may be unrestricted. Contributions from the Duke Endowment are substantial, and I believe they go into both restricted and unrestricted funds. I think the Duke Endowment funds tuition for children of Methodists Ministers, for example.

Mechanisms for those who can't afford Duke. Not really for high middle plus income class people with several kids. This is the group that produces many of the top students. These students would flock to a "tuition optional" top twenty university.

Is that who you want your free tuition to cover? That is laughable. Those people can cover Duke's tuition, and stll pay their country club dues. They may find themselves in a bind if they had several children, but is that Duke's concern? That is for Duke to determine, and if help is needed, they will give it. That you are proposing your free tuition for high middle plus income class people with several kids seem elitist in the extreme to me.

I mentioned my barber earlier. He is not upper middle class by any stretch, and he has three children. He had to pay only 10% of his son's tuition, but his son also worked pretty hard. His son also did a year, or maybe a semester, at Cambridge, as I recall, as part of his undergrad curriculum. He was admitted to Duke before they even asked for family financial info. That is the best kind of program, not your ill advised free tuition scheme.

You seem to think that Duke's endowment funds can be used to cover tuition for everybody. If Duke were to unilaterally do that it is likely that the donors of those endowment funds would ask for their money back. The only way your idea could happen would be to find somebody, or several somebodies, to fund an endowment just for that purpose. Actually, Duke already has a number of endowed scholarships. Now, if you could do that, mine would be the loudest applause. The University could then afford a new dormitory, and I would recommend that they call it Tecumseh Hall.

[Jarhead]

Isn't Rice mostly an engineering school?

[tecumseh]

Other than arrogance not sure what your posts convey. You make all sorts of assumptions on the part of the poster to prop up your arrogance. It took help from "unexpected" and quite a few posts before you understood the 5% rule instead you just assumed I did not understand how investment income worked when it was you who lacked understanding.

Perhaps I am an intelligent person and talking to someone who is the CFO of a liberal arts college perhaps he knows a lot on this subject did that ever occur to you? Did I say or that Duke should model itself after Grinnell? Did I say I have children looking for a free ride?

Your arrogance knows no boundry perhaps you should read the post about civility.

[The Gordog]

Actually, I know a few.

Actually he went to UVA (in state), but Duke was the third choice of those that accepted him (UVA, Rice and Duke) based entirely on the money aspect.

[Jarhead]

Perhaps I am an intelligent person and talking to someone who is the CFO of a liberal arts college perhaps he knows a lot on this subject did that ever occur to you? Did I say or that Duke should model itself after Grinnell? Did I say I have children looking for a free ride?

Your arrogance knows no boundry perhaps you should read the post about civility.

To quote a New York idiom, "you tawkin ta me?"

[tecumseh]

http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp0612.pdf

[unexpected]

Rice is mainly a science school. Academically it's similar to Hopkins (if you're an East Coaster).

I'm all for Duke becoming #1, but I think all that money could be better spent.

Honestly, sometimes I feel that the Duke ranking is way overrated. If you go to a place like Stanford, for instance, there seems to be just a ton more buildings, professors, and research going on there.

We still don't have a Noble Laureate on our faculty, while even State Schools have at least one okay, I think we finally bought one to become Dean of Something Important).

As far as our programs go, While BME and Public Policy are ranked really high, some of the other major programs aren't even in the top 10 (Computer Science, for instance is #19). Electrical Engineering is in the top 25, and ME and Civil aren't even on the map.

Graduate School wise, we're even worse. Though we have well respect programs in humanities and BME, we're not a destination school like Stanford or Harvard on the graduate level for fields like chemistry, physics, biology, computer science, or the other engineerings.

As far as expanding our undergrad offerings, our art, music, and dance departments are terrible.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head - some directions I would like to see the school go before we make it some tuition-free Utopia

and about UT vs. Rice -- UT and Rice aren't even on the same level. UT is #50, and Rice is #10. As a Texan, I would say the gap is bigger than the Duke-UNC gap. Rice is damn competitive (I didn't even get into Rice, but I got into Duke and Yale), and to me serves as the best data point.

You're conjecturing that if Duke went one step further, we'd do it better than Rice, Cooper Union, or Olin have, but there just doesn't seem to be any data to support that. It's a nice idea in theory, but it just seems to be wishful thinking :-(.

[hurleyfor3]

Actually he went to UVA (in state), but Duke was the third choice of those that accepted him (UVA, Rice and Duke) based entirely on the money aspect.

I'm sort of like that: I got into programs that by any measure were better fits for me than Duke was, but Duke was free.

I know at least one person, and perhaps two, who got scholarships to both Duke and Rice and applied from NC... and still went to Rice. I'm hardly the first person to say this, but it's all about what the best fit is FOR YOU. And money.