Should we really be making an issue of Maryland's graduation rates?

[4decadedukie]

Please add NC State to the "good" category (my Industrial Design grad school alumnae daughter will shoot me).

[Indoor66]

I admire the generosity in your academic assessment (and I agree with the remaining points in your post). However, I find it difficult to believe that all ACC universities are “good academically.” Recognizing that this is certain to elicit some disagreements, my individual opinion is:
> Elite/top-tier: Duke
> Excellent: UVa, Wake UNC, BC (not ordered)
> Good: Clemson, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, Miami, Maryland (not ordered)
> Acceptable: FSU

Obviously, the foregoing is overly simplified; individual departments, schools and curriculum will differ from this generalization.

Wherefor art thou UNC? Not top tier...

[DevilHorns]

Please add NC State to the "good" category (my Industrial Design grad school alumnae daughter will shoot me).

Isn't NC State's engineering track more respected than Duke's (outside of BME)?

Not an engineer here, but just something I have heard.

[4decadedukie]

I really do not want to get into a heated discussion, which is why I originally indicated that this was "my individual opinion." However, in an attempt to find a single source for SAT information (therefore consistent, even if imperfect, among universities) and with full recognition that SAT scores are only one rough measure of selectivity/quality, here is what http://www.satscores.us/ indicates (Composite SAT, 25 - 75 percentile):
Duke: 1990-2290
BC: 1860-2140
Wake: 1860-2115
UVa: 1800-2120
UNC: 1780-2070

Again, in my personal opinion, UNC-CH is a fine university and at/near the top for PUBLIC, national-class research institutions; however, it is not quite in the same category as Duke and its PRIVATE peers.

[Spret42]

I really do not want to get into a heated discussion, which is why I originally indicated that this was "my individual opinion." However, in an attempt to find a single source for SAT information (therefore consistent, even if imperfect, among universities) and with full recognition that SAT scores are only one rough measure of selectivity/quality, here is what http://www.satscores.us/ indicates (Composite SAT, 25 - 75 percentile):
Duke: 1990-2290
BC: 1860-2140
Wake: 1860-2115
UVa: 1800-2120
UNC: 1780-2070

Again, in my personal opinion, UNC-CH is a fine university and at/near the top for PUBLIC, national-class research institutions; however, it is not quite in the same category as Duke and its PRIVATE peers.

Why would it be? It is a state university. Isn't it designed with the idea of providing education to all the people of North Carolina etc.

This is an honest question.

What is Duke's freshman enrollment? If you took UNC's freshman enrollment and counted only their top equal number of students, would the numbers be comparable? Or is that already built into those numbers on that site.

[J.Blink]

As for your slam on AA Studies, unless you are equally cirtical of folks who major in say, European History, I detect some subtle racism in your post.

Just FWIW, I graduated with a dual major in History and Computer Science (and a language minor). I specialized in non-European history and took several African studies courses. Some of these cross-listed AAAS (African and African-American Studies) classes were run out of history and some of them were run out other department (ie, culanth, sociology, etc).

There was absolutely no comparison between the history courses and the cultural anthro ones. Anthro was a sad joke. I'm not at all claiming to be humble, PC, or anything else here, but there were "legit" AAAS classes and cakewalk idiotic classes, and IMO, cakewalk outnumbered legit. And please note, I don't even mean this is a slam against sociology and cultural anthropology. I personally find that some departments (eg those two) have become ridiculously anti-Western, post-modern, and politically involved (see e.g. group of 88) but there are definitely still valuable courses taught in those departments.

[J.Blink]

Isn't NC State's engineering track more respected than Duke's (outside of BME)?

Not an engineer here, but just something I have heard.

As a North Carolinian who went through Duke and got a Comp Sci degree, while also having many friends go to NCSU and get various engineering/comp sci degrees I would humbly say "it depends." I think the biggest difference is the average student at Duke is probably of a higher caliber (due to both many Duke students having greater opportunities before college and Duke being able to be far more selective). However I knew many people who got excellent educations at NCSU--probably better in some ways than Duke.

I guess it boils down to -- if you say "Duke engineering student" or "NCSU engineering student," what do most people think? I think most people would think the Duke student would be better, even if that's not grounded in reality.

And incidentally UNC-CH has a absolutely top notch graduate level Computer science program (particularly in the area of graphics)

[4decadedukie]

Isn't NC State's engineering track more respected than Duke's (outside of BME)?

Not an engineer here, but just something I have heard.

Even if I fully accept your premise – and I do not – NCSU’s website indicates that there are approximately 5,900 undergraduate engineering students, although the University's total undergraduate enrollment is roughly 23,000; that is only about a quarter of State's undergraduate population. Therefore, I would be reluctant to accept the concpet that the excellence of NC State’s undergraduate engineers is a decisive determinant in aggregate undergraduate quality/selectivity.

[4decadedukie]

Why would it be? It is a state university. Isn't it designed with the idea of providing education to all the people of North Carolina etc.

This is an honest question.

What is Duke's freshman enrollment? If you took UNC's freshman enrollment and counted only their top equal number of students, would the numbers be comparable? Or is that already built into those numbers on that site.

First, I never suggested a direct comparison between Duke and UNC-CH; rather, I was ONLY responding to Indoor66’s inquiry: “Wherefore art thou UNC? Not top tier...”. In fact, I agree that outstanding, major public and private universities have somewhat different objectives, which may be why widely disseminated college rankings (admittedly, far from flawless in their methodologies or conclusions), such as US News’, place them in distinct categories.

Second, I cannot answer your questions re SatScore’s methodology; however, I respectfully suggest that your concept of comparing Duke with UNC’s top 1,713 freshman “SAT achievers” (Duke's Class of ’13 enrollment is 1,713) may be flawed. Why UNC’s top SAT performers, instead of their medium or mean achievers, or the bottom scorers?

[Spret42]

I actually was really only asking out of curiosity.

I asked about the top 1700 at UNC seeing as they would sort of represent the best 1700 kids that UNC admitted etc. So I was just sort of wondering how they would match up with the best 1700 Duke admitted (incidentally the entire class). I was thinking of a hypothetical UNC where only the top 1700 were a part of the criteria for whether they were a "top tier" school. Would their best students match up with Duke's best students?

Would their drop from the top tier be due to being a larger state school with a larger enrollment?

I honestly don't know the answer and was trying to ask respectfully.

[DevilHorns]

Even if I fully accept your premise – and I do not – NCSU’s website indicates that there are approximately 5,900 undergraduate engineering students, although the University's total undergraduate enrollment is roughly 23,000; that is only about a quarter of State's undergraduate population. Therefore, I would be reluctant to accept the concpet that the excellence of NC State’s undergraduate engineers is a decisive determinant in aggregate undergraduate quality/selectivity.

Its just something I heard. Im not going to try and argue for it. This is becoming more off-topic now anyways (apologize for that, I contributed to that...).

[sagegrouse]

Again, in my personal opinion, UNC-CH is a fine university and at/near the top for PUBLIC, national-class research institutions; however, it is not quite in the same category as Duke and its PRIVATE peers.

To take a thread that was once "On-topic" and veered "Off-topic" in a different direction -- basically "Off-a-cliff", I would like to offer something that students in my daughter's era (mid-1990s)used to say about Duke and UNC students:

"They represent two different meanings of 'diversity.' Duke students are from all over the country, more so than almost any other school, and from foreign countries as well. But they are often in the same mold. [Did someone say 'J. Crew?'] UNC students are almost all from North Carolina but reflect every kind of personality and background that one can imagine."

Sounds like two pretty good places to me.

sagegrouse

[hughgs]

As a North Carolinian who went through Duke and got a Comp Sci degree, while also having many friends go to NCSU and get various engineering/comp sci degrees I would humbly say "it depends." I think the biggest difference is the average student at Duke is probably of a higher caliber (due to both many Duke students having greater opportunities before college and Duke being able to be far more selective). However I knew many people who got excellent educations at NCSU--probably better in some ways than Duke.

I guess it boils down to -- if you say "Duke engineering student" or "NCSU engineering student," what do most people think? I think most people would think the Duke student would be better, even if that's not grounded in reality.

And incidentally UNC-CH has a absolutely top notch graduate level Computer science program (particularly in the area of graphics)

Here's what I think:

Duke Engineer = consultant
NCSU Engineer = design

[theAlaskanBear]

We need to remember also the difference between instate and out of state students at UNCCH.

UNC-CH is an excellent top tier public institution. For out-of-staters to be accepted, it is truly an elite institution. Now, for obvious reasons, NC students have different standards. This I think is a big difference, because Duke is not really a "regional" school, it would be interesting to compare out-of-state and in-state enrollment and scores for each school.

That said, it all depends on what you want to go to school for. Neither Duke nor UNCCH have an accredited architecture program, but Clemson does. Its really not fair to compare schools, because all have their strengths and weaknesses. It is really department dependent.

I hate when people get into these discussions that try to stereotype students at a particular school. I guarantee you that ANYWHERE I go, I can find stupid and I can find brilliant people. Why does it even matter?

[Reisen]

I didn't read through all the replies to this thread, so this may have already been posted. And I'll preface this by saying I mean this with all due respect...

The Duke University of today is nothing like it was for people who graduated in the 1980's and before. Indeed, the entire elite college experience, from prep work, getting in, internships, etc, is 1000x more competitive, and only gets more so every year.

By the time my daughter is old enough to go to Duke, I don't even want to think what her experience will be like. But suffice it to say the stories of athlete experiences in the 70's and 80's are as relevant to today as kegs on the quad are (it's a whole different Duke).

[allenmurray]

Just FWIW, I graduated with a dual major in History and Computer Science (and a language minor). I specialized in non-European history and took several African studies courses. Some of these cross-listed AAAS (African and African-American Studies) classes were run out of history and some of them were run out other department (ie, culanth, sociology, etc).

There was absolutely no comparison between the history courses and the cultural anthro ones. Anthro was a sad joke. I'm not at all claiming to be humble, PC, or anything else here, but there were "legit" AAAS classes and cakewalk idiotic classes, and IMO, cakewalk outnumbered legit. And please note, I don't even mean this is a slam against sociology and cultural anthropology. I personally find that some departments (eg those two) have become ridiculously anti-Western, post-modern, and politically involved (see e.g. group of 88) but there are definitely still valuable courses taught in those departments.

It doesn't take much seaching to find an "easy" course in any social science - however, that is different from it being an "easy" major. Many schools require that all students take a course or two in the social sciences - so folks migrating from other majors often find these "general" courses and think they are representative of the major as a whole. (I found introductory Zoology quite easy, but I'm not silly enough to think it is an easy major.) Folks who major in social sciences have very high reading and writing demands. And while some university's social science programs are highly ideological, that is not true for all - and even when it is true the slant isn't always as you described, but at some schools is just the opposite.

[SharkD]

Just to be clear, this "graduation rate" stat applies only to students that matriculate for 4 years (not those that leave early to the pros, or transfer). Is that right?

The NCAA GSR is calculated based on the percentage of freshmen who enroll in a specific academic year and graduate from the same institution within 6 years.

Transfers and drop-outs hurt the rate, if they do not earn a degree from their original institution of enrollment, within 6 years of entering college.

[just_wondering]

If it makes you feel better about yourselves!