MBB: Duke 77, Miami 74 Post-Game Thread

[DukieInBrasil]

Thank you Mr Singler!!! Not exactly the textbook way to close out a game but we held on none the less. We got good stuff from Knolon, as well as solid contributions from everybody except Dre and Ryan. I like how Mason's stat line has at least one of everything. Actually both MPs have played at least moderately effective ball in both tournament games, let's hope they keep it up. Both LT and Z were effective, love the FTs from Z! Now let's win the ACC Finals!!!

[devildownunder]

Sorry, this is not 1999 or 2001. We have a very narrow margin for winning most games. It has been that way all year once you remove the large benefit we get from playing in Cameron. Like today, we have to defend well every play, and minimize turnovers, then hope that we shoot well enough to win. I don't see that changing- this team is not built to get turnovers or easy baskets and we don't get to the line much either. Today was a good win - Miami is good and getting better (they will be tough next year!).

And, yes, I will defend running the slow-down game- we needed to reduce the number of possessions at the end, and we did that. Of course, we need to execute better, but we are going to be in the same place again (if not tomorrow, then in the round of 32 or 16).

In any case, on to the finals. We will need everyone to dig deep to win and cut down the nets. Hopefully, we can get good minutes from the bench - we looked tired in the second half today.

Uhm, we've NEVER executed well in stall ball, so saying we need to do so, as if it's just a case of flipping the switch is silly.

Actually, there was one year when we actually were decent at running the spread: 2004. And it STILL cost us the ACC title against Maryland.

[DukeUsul]

We almost coulda lost that one for a couplea reasons:
1) Allowing Miami to go 8-15 from three.
2) Too many turnovers, esp. down the stretch. (I kinda like having a team where 10 total TOs is abnormally many).

Chalk the second one up to Miami's very good defense, esp. forcing those three shot clock violations late. I'm still a believer in the stall game... and today just goes to show that even with those three bad turnovers, slowing the game down, limiting Miami's looks and slowing their rhythm can still work.

[DukeUsul]

Uhm, we've NEVER executed well in stall ball, so saying we need to do so, as if it's just a case of flipping the switch is silly.

Actually, there was one year when we actually were decent at running the spread: 2004. And it STILL cost us the ACC title against Maryland.

Saying stall ball doesn't work when it has worked in almost every game we've employed it in this year is silly... AND disgusting.

[CDu]

Survive and advance. Survive and advance. Great first 15 minutes. Bad next 5 minutes. Strong second half.

Miami played hard, and they've got some talent to work with for the future. Scott and Johnson look really good, and Grant looks like he could be good with experience.

Tough game for Smith. Tough first half for Scheyer, though he fought through it. Great performance from Singler.

Also, it was an impressive effort from Mason today. He had 6 boards, 2 blocks and a steal in only 16 minutes. And he managed to make an impact without committing too many bad fouls. Hopefully he can build off of this game.

But the most important thing is to keep winning. We'll get somebody's best effort tomorrow, and we just have to meet that challenge too.

[BlueintheFace]

Uhm, we've NEVER executed well in stall ball, so saying we need to do so, as if it's just a case of flipping the switch is silly.

Actually, there was one year when we actually were decent at running the spread: 2004. And it STILL cost us the ACC title against Maryland.

That is just not true. We have actually done pretty well with it throughout the season. Tonight... not so much

[devildownunder]

CANNOT continue to build large leads and let the opposition come back due to sitting on the ball. Steve Winwood said it best years ago--when you see a chance you take it. When a scoring opportunity presents itself and there's more than 6 minutes in the game, even if we're up by more than 15 points you go for the score. I don't mean attempting to run a score up. I mean preserve a lead by not shooting ourself in the collective foot. I hope we play better tomorrow so we've something more positive to go on for the NCAA's--an impressive performance and another ACC title.

It makes even less sense than usual this year because we are not an up-tempo team in the first place, so the "we need to reduce the number of possessions" mantra that defenders of this "strategy" spout over and over again isn't even really applicable. How many more possessions would the opposition really get if we just ran our offense as usual?

[DukeUsul]

It makes even less sense than usual this year because we are not an up-tempo team in the first place, so the "we need to reduce the number of possessions" mantra that defenders of this "strategy" spout over and over again isn't even really applicable. How many more possessions would the opposition really get if we just ran our offense as usual?

A couplefew more than they would by us stalling.

[Delaware]

We were up by about 7 with something 7 minutes to play (i'm sure someone will do the research). We survived, barely. Stall ball is disgusting.

It was 62-50 with about 7 minutes left when we pulled the ball back.

[Lulu]

And, yes, I will defend running the slow-down game- we needed to reduce the number of possessions at the end, and we did that. Of course, we need to execute better, but we are going to be in the same place again (if not tomorrow, then in the round of 32 or 16).

Take away the rest of the argument, and how do you defend 3 shot clock violations because the other team only had to play 8 seconds of defense? That's how they got back into the game, because we decided we didn't need to score. Again, a few bounces the other way or missed free throws and we easily lose because we started throwing away possessions. I know it's pointless to argue about events that can never be replayed, and it's nothing more than a feeling, but it's a really dang strong one and that's coming from a person who strongly relies more on logic and rationale in my daily life, not the mention work.

[Hermy-own]

I think Duke has two main things to work on in the ACC final.

First, we need to up our defensive intensity. What happened the great 3-pt defense that we've boasted all year? There were some nice blocks by the Plumlees, some good altered shots by Zoubs, and a few steals mostly due to Miami's ineptness. But overall, they had too many open looks and fast break points. We absolutely cannot surrender those in the NCAAT.

Second, we need a post scoring option. Yeah, we got a lot of scoring from the inside today, but it wasn't as if we dumped it down low and got points from that, except in the very first run of the game. What happened to Zoubs' great post up moves? I was expecting him to score 3-5 post up buckets every game, but it's not happening. If not him, then perhaps Miles with the post up, or Mason with some more jump-hooks in the lane. The ally-oop dunks are great, but not necessarily sustainable or reliable production.

Thanks to the NCAA vault I saw our championship team make its run for the title in 2001. According to DBR stereotypes that team was far too dependent on the 3. But that team did get excellent production out of Carlos Boozer - he would post up, get great position, and it felt like an automatic 2 points every time he caught the ball down low. Those points were especially great during opposing teams' runs, and were great for steadying Duke.

This last game was not a bad game, and I'm very impressed with the development of the Plumlees. Whether or not they score, their contribution to the game is solid, something that you couldn't say earlier in the year.

[jv001]

I'm with you on that one!
I want to show that that loss to NC State was a fluke! But, I want no part of the sting!

And, yes, Jon looks wiped out.

Jon took the ball out of bounds one time and did not step back in bounds. He just stood there. I was yelling, get in bounds Jon. I thought he was going to get a return pass and be out of bounds. I've never seen him react like this. But to his credit, he hit a couple of big 3's in the 2nd half. Go Duke!

[should_be_working]

Stall ball works only when you can execute, and today we didn't execute well at all. We made that game way closer than it should have been. You need a quick guard to run stall ball successfully, one who can break down a defense and not only create a shot for himself but one for his teamates. I'm sorry but Jon is just not quite that guy - especially of late as he seems either out or gas or playing with an injury.

I was literally screaming at the TV to get the ball to Nolan, I think he is the guy who needs the ball in his hands when the clock is dwindling. Stall ball didn't work today, you can't possibly argue that it did. But we won and that's all that matters, on to the championship.

Oh and of course the refs were absolutely horrible in the first half.

[devildownunder]

That is just not true. We have actually done pretty well with it throughout the season. Tonight... not so much

When?

[lotusland]

I'll repost this from the in-game thread since I posted it right before it was closed. RE: another poster's comment that Duke isn't feared.

People don't fear us because we don't blow teams away like we're capable of doing. Less fear means teams play harder against us, which leads to closer games, which leads to even less fear. It's circular. We need to stop letting the air out of the ball.

It's smart bball as evidenced by the fact that we won even though we executed it as poorly as possible offensively (3 shot clock violations!!!). There simply were not enough possessions left for Miami to catch up. We should be able to get a decent shot off in the last 10-seconds or get to the line. Play defense, don't foul, make your free throws and you win. We were not taking the air out at the end of the first half when we gave up a double digit lead. Basketball is a game of runs. why allow Miami an opportunity for another run? I actually think we have run clock well this year using our 3 scoring options up until today and we still won with Miami never having an opportuntity to tie or win. Aren't we undefeated this year in games that we ran clock at the end?

[tele]

K got a technical after Nolan got called for travelling when he was bumped off his dribble by one of the Miami players.

Were these the same officials that called the Maryland game? That call on Nolan reminded me of Scheyer's travel in the Maryland game, and the ref was just itching to T up coach K in that game.

[devildownunder]

It was 62-50 with about 7 minutes left when we pulled the ball back.

Thanks for the detail. Up 12, won by 3. And only because we actually abandoned that foolishness and started looking to score again this time.

[CDu]

When?

You can pretty much go game by game in our wins. Look at most of our wins this year. You just only recognize stallball when it doesn't look terrific.

Heck, you could even say it worked today. We scored as poorly as possible and still had a 5-7 point lead with a minute to go.

[rsvman]

I feel like I should have something constructive to say, but all I really want to do is harp about stall ball almost giving away another game. I really hate it when I hear the argument "look at our results" because, I'm sorry, but you cannot go back in time and replay the same game without stall ball and see how it would have ended. No one can know what would have happened, but what I see is that we lose our momentum at a point when we dominating the game and they were falling apart. It's hard not to think we were more likely to run up the score even further and remove any doubt of the outcome. (I know the intent of reducing the number of opportunities for the other team to quickly catch up.) We had the momentum. They didn't. They were on their 3rd game in 3 days and starting to fall off when we gave them a chance to calm down. With a little luck, they absolutely could have beaten us and I just feel that the game should have never been in that place.

And geez was it early still when we pulled it out for this game. We really, really had emotions on our side at that point.

This is just wrong.

"Stall ball" works if it done correctly. We executed it poorly today, but we still got the win. I would counterargue that nobody knows what would have happened had we continued to play full on; perhaps we would have lost. You don't know, and neither do I.

A couple of seasons ago I kept a notebook detailing every possession from every game in which we executed "stall ball." We won every one of those games. Sure, the lead sunk in some of those games, but certainly not in all; in fact, if I recall correctly, the lead shrunk in about half of them, but stayed the same or even stretched out in others.

Successful stall ball depends on two things: 1) getting a reasonable shot near the end of the clock, and 2) getting defensive stops. We were not able to do the former, but we successfully did the latter for about 2:30 of game play, which was enough to ensure the win. The final three-point shot was meaningless; we were up six points with 4 seconds to play in the game. In other words, the lead was insurmountable. This despite the poorest execution of stall ball in a long time. So, what's the problem again?

[devildeac]

I was called in to work for an hour so I missed the last three minutes of the first half . What happened, when I left Duke has a seven point lead and then I see they were down by 3 at half. How in the world did Duke allow that to happen?

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