Why does DBR ignore reality on ACC coaches

[Mudge]

They're dilettants and you're basketball's equivalent of Einstein. No arrogane in this series of posts...though I have to admit getting bored halfway through the opinion and moving on. Of course were this physics, it would be proveable and not just a bunch of opinion(ated thought).

I never claimed to be Einstein-- the other poster is the one who suggested I talk to what he calls "casual fans", which is definitely a rung or two below my level of interest/scrutiny of college basketball.

Of course, if you were that bored (indicative to me of another casual fan), you wouldn't still be reading down here, in the posts at the bottom of the thread... and as a physics major, I would point out that, even in physics, much of what is conjectured and theorized remains just that: conjecture and theory-- and thus unproven (though perhaps provable some day). There's a reason that it's still called Einstein's THEORY of relativity, as opposed to the LAW of gravity.

[Mudge]

I think the point is: even the casual fans (who are generally more forgiving than the hardcore fans) don't think he's that great.

Well, now that you've set up a strawman, torn it down, and drawn a few responses, I'm not sure where this is going. How about we just rank the ACC coaches based on their overall coaching ability? Here's my list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Greenburg
4. Roy Williams
5. Hamilton
6. Bennett
7. Skinner
8. Purnell
9. Hewitt
10. Haith
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

If you disagree with any, please explain why instead of just saying I have my head in the sand.

I think you have to put RWilliams second on the list, simply because of his success in the tournament (just as K moved up high, after his run from 86-94), and also because Williams has either the highest or one of the highest winning percentages of all coaches, all time, coaching only in top conferences. GWilliams can't compare, if for no other reason than his tournament success is far inferior. Also, a big part of coaching is recruiting, and RWilliams does that as well or better than anyone. For those who don't think Roy motivates well, I would say, look at how hard UNC competes against Duke (even when inferior-- see their victory over Duke at Duke in Hansborough's freshman year, that by all rights, never should have happened, when one compares the talent).

I also think you have Bennett far too high (he perhaps shouldn't even be ranked yet, at this stage of his limited career), and Hewitt deserves a higher ranking, because of what he has already done at GT (and Siena).

I'd put Lowe at the bottom of the list, behind Gaudio, because of his lack of success (to this point) in recruiting, where Gaudio has at least outdone him there, so far.

I'd probably go:
1)K
2)Roy
3)Gary
4)Hewitt
5)Hamilton/Skinner
7)Greenberg/Pernell/Haith
10)Gaudio
11) Lowe
TBD- Bennett

[Matches]

I agree with reserving judgment on Bennett. I recall Pete Gillen looking like a great hire during his first year at UVa too. Even Leaito (sp) had some brief success.

I'd put Gaudio below Lowe though. The Aminu class wasn't really Dino's, and Lowe has had a few bad breaks re: recruiting. As far as in-game strategy goes, I think Lowe's superior (though still not very good).

[Regenman]

I totally agree with the OP. I was involved in a post earlier this season where people were rushing to the defense of Coach K's protege legacy. It's frankly pretty bad this year.

As for DBR's focus on Barnes, I'm not quite sure why folks harp on UT's academics (especially when USA Today just did a mock bracketology run based on academic standing and Texas lost to Duke in the Final Four (and Kansas beats Duke in the Finals)).

As for the superbly talented Texas team (since I'm an alum of both), you really want to get into the recruit ranking comparison between Texas and Duke over the years and who has underperformed?

Let's look at the non-freshmen

Dexter Pittman (unranked) vs. Zoubek (24)
Damion James (17) vs. Singler (2)
Justin Mason (86) vs. Scheyer (71)
Gary Johnson (61) vs. Lance Thomas (42)
Alexis Wangmene (86) vs. Nolan Smith (39)
Clint Chapman (73) vs. Miles Plumlee (101)

Texas has one top 50 recruit whereas Duke has 4 (and frankly Scouts ranked Scheyer much higher than Rivals).

Barnes had a great freshmen class on paper. This year he wasn't able to integrate the team (so that makes him a bad coach?). Then compare the Big 12 to the ACC this year (Baylor, K State, Kansas, A&M versus Maryland???)

But yeah, Coach Barnes can't coach worth a lick and Texas has bad academics.....

Sometimes, the logic here at this site isn't worthy of supposed Duke grads.

[NSDukeFan]

As for the superbly talented Texas team (since I'm an alum of both), you really want to get into the recruit ranking comparison between Texas and Duke over the years and who has underperformed?

Let's look at the non-freshmen

Dexter Pittman (unranked) vs. Zoubek (24)
Damion James (17) vs. Singler (2)
Justin Mason (86) vs. Scheyer (71)
Gary Johnson (61) vs. Lance Thomas (42)
Alexis Wangmene (86) vs. Nolan Smith (39)
Clint Chapman (73) vs. Miles Plumlee (101)

Texas has one top 50 recruit whereas Duke has 4 (and frankly Scouts ranked Scheyer much higher than Rivals).

Barnes had a great freshmen class on paper. This year he wasn't able to integrate the team (so that makes him a bad coach?). Then compare the Big 12 to the ACC this year (Baylor, K State, Kansas, A&M versus Maryland???)

But yeah, Coach Barnes can't coach worth a lick and Texas has bad academics.....

Sometimes, the logic here at this site isn't worthy of supposed Duke grads.

I'm confused with your point when comparing Texas and Duke's recruits. You could make an argument that every Duke player is better than every Texas player you have compared them to. There is not a huge discrepancy in any of the rankings except Pittman has become a very solid player for someone unranked and Smith is obviously way better than his comparison. So, as far as development go, I don't understand how you could argue about any of Duke' players underperforming relative to Texas. The issue with Texas underachieving was because their freshman class (who you excluded) was very highly ranked and they had most of a solid team back from the prior year.

[Mudge]

Despite Bob Huggins making WVU very good very quickly (and Big East Champs in a very tough year), and making KSU very good very quickly (try one year), and UC very good for a long time (including a Final Four team, and several #1 seeds in tournament- and the only victory, other than UConn, over maybe Duke's best team ever in 1999), DBR keeps finding ways to slam him, saying that he always "finds a way to fall by the wayside early", even though he has gotten great results in the tournament, despite limited talent.

Only 2 years ago, Huggins used a far less talented WVU team to battle back from a big deficit and eliminate Duke from the NCAA tourney-- but DBR is still sure that Oliver Purnell is the second coming (despite the fact that he has never won an NCAA tourney game anywhere-- even with great talent in Clemson)... once again, DBR's double standard for coaching evaluations, that disregards results, in favor of affirmative action assessments seems to be at work.

Practically every other basketball coach in America would tell you that Bob Huggins is a tremendously good basketball coach, who gets the most out of his players, and teaches defense, toughness, and competitive fire as well as anyone in the country-- but not DBR-- they want to keep slamming him, because they don't like that he doesn't graduate his players (and probably because he managed to beat Duke on at least two notable occasions)-- if that's the criteria, then start slamming Gary Williams the same way-- he doesn't graduate players either... and I will be waiting eagerly to see the stats on Oliver Purnell's graduation rate at Clemson (and Dayton, for that matter)... or Steve Robinson's at FSU, or Bobby Cremins' at GIT, or any number of other DBR favorites who've experienced far less on-court success than Huggins, but don't graduate many players. It will be interesting to see how many Jeff Capel graduates at OU (or graduated at VCU), when the data come in.

[Mudge]

Well, Huggins has his team in the Sweet 16, and his protege, Fearless Frank at Kansas State, is there too, with the program that Huggins single-handedly resuscitated from the morgue... I'll bet K would like to have at least one of his proteges hanging around somewhere in the tournament still, as would Oliver Purnell, Steve Robinson, or John Thompson, or any of the other fine coaches that DBR is so sure put Bob Huggins to shame...

[theAlaskanBear]

Well, Huggins has his team in the Sweet 16, and his protege, Fearless Frank at Kansas State, is there too, with the program that Huggins single-handedly resuscitated from the morgue... I'll bet K would like to have at least one of his proteges hanging around somewhere in the tournament still, as would Oliver Purnell, Steve Robinson, or John Thompson, or any of the other fine coaches that DBR is so sure put Bob Huggins to shame...

I REALLY wish you would stop using "DBR" in your posts like there is some monolith for you to attack here. Or at the very least, DBR MINUS alaskanbear. We are all different posters, with different opinions, and you most certainly do not know what I think about various coaches. I

If you care to notice you are mostly just arguing with yourself here.

If you really feel the need, go ahead and build up strawmen to knock down and soothe your ego. But your fixation on this thread is a bit ridiculous.

[Mudge]

I REALLY wish you would stop using "DBR" in your posts like there is some monolith for you to attack here. Or at the very least, DBR MINUS alaskanbear. We are all different posters, with different opinions, and you most certainly do not know what I think about various coaches. I

If you care to notice you are mostly just arguing with yourself here.

If you really feel the need, go ahead and build up strawmen to knock down and soothe your ego. But your fixation on this thread is a bit ridiculous.

DBR may not be a monolith, but it is a "bilith"-- it is constituted of the editorial opinions expressed on the main page-- most likely by one of the two founders of the site-- though the editorials are not signed, so that is uncertain. When I say DBR, I am hardly referring to the great unwashed mass of posters on this bulletin board-- obviously that group hardly presents one coherent position... It's clear you haven't read my earlier posts on this thread well enough to understand that-- but if you read the DBR main page postings, you would understand to which opinions I am referring.

[Mudge]

Huggy Bear and WVU have sure fulfilled that brilliant prophecy, haven't they-- there isn't a team left in the tournament that I'd rather see less, right now, than West Virginia... Huggins goes to his second Final Four (a lot more than a bunch of other coaches that DBR holds in higher esteem) with another team of mostly OK-to-average players that everybody else wasn't after.

Who's doing more with less (other than maybe Butler)...and this quite possibly would have been his third Final Four, if Kenyon Martin (the NCAA Player of the Year) hadn't broken his leg right before the tournament, when Cincy was ranked #1 in the country, in 2000. If he wins it all this year, what's the difference between Huggins and Boeheim, as far as tournament success?

DBR does realize that Huggins is the 4th winningest active coach, behind K, Boeheim, and Calhoun, all of whom are older, been coaching longer, and have had the luxury of higher profile programs in higher profile leagues with which to bring in far higher quality players than Huggins has had at Akron (no league), Cincy (Metro, then Conference USA), then Kansas State (poor stepchild of the Big 12, when Huggins arrived), and West Virginia (nothing major accomplished since Jerry West graduated 51 years ago). I'll bet even K would like to see any of his former assistants have the success that Frank Martin has had at K-State (after Huggs revived that nearly ancient tradition of excellence there)... and Andy Kennedy ain't doing much worse at Ole Miss than Brey is at Notre Dame.

[pfrduke]

I don't disagree with anything in your commentary on Huggins (other than to point out that Ebanks is also a likely 1st round NBA draft pick), but I can't for the life of me figure out why you're getting so worked up about who the site's owners think is or is not a good coach. What does it matter to you if DBR prefers Boeheim to Huggins?

[Mudge]

I don't disagree with anything in your commentary on Huggins (other than to point out that Ebanks is also a likely 1st round NBA draft pick), but I can't for the life of me figure out why you're getting so worked up about who the site's owners think is or is not a good coach. What does it matter to you if DBR prefers Boeheim to Huggins?

'Cause they have a bully pulpit on the website's main page to influence lots of Duke basketball fans-- and they regularly employ that position to make ill-informed judgments about coaches from other schools, that are in no way supported by the actual facts on the ground. This often leads to a ground swell of Duke basketball fandom sentiment that can be every bit as ignorant and uninformed as the "Duke gets all the calls" theme is in another direction.

[allenmurray]

'Cause they have a bully pulpit on the website's main page to influence lots of Duke basketball fans-- and they regularly employ that position to make ill-informed judgments about coaches from other schools, that are in no way supported by the actual facts on the ground. This often leads to a ground swell of Duke basketball fandom sentiment that can be every bit as ignorant and uninformed as the "Duke gets all the calls" theme is in another direction.

YOu know why they have a "bully pulpit"? It is their site. You could start your own site.

If DBR/SportsNation wants to say that Mary Poppins is the best basketball coach ever that is their right (though frankly I think that Bert-the-chimney-sweep) was a far better coach than Mary, but I'm not sure I'd spend a lot of time trying to convnice the internet world other wise).

[DevilHorns]

After Huggins outcoached us to win in the tourney a few years back (yes, i will go there)... I have realized he is the real deal. He knows how to motivate his players. His players love him. Its very obvious he is a great communicator, and at least in the small set of games Ive seen him coach on tv, he's been solid as an in-game coach as well.

[Mudge]

YOu know why they have a "bully pulpit"? It is their site. You could start your own site.

If DBR/SportsNation wants to say that Mary Poppins is the best basketball coach ever that is their right (though frankly I think that Bert-the-chimney-sweep) was a far better coach than Mary, but I'm not sure I'd spend a lot of time trying to convnice the internet world other wise).

Of course they can-- they can do whatever they want-- and they can choose to squelch dissent, if they so choose-- but until they do, I'm going to occasionally point out how wrong they've been about certain coaches over the years... and doing it here is lot less work (though admittedly also less effective) than starting my own site, which I have neither the time nor the inclination to do.

[allenmurray]

After Huggins outcoached us to win in the tourney a few years back (yes, i will go there)... I have realized he is the real deal. He knows how to motivate his players. His players love him. Its very obvious he is a great communicator, and at least in the small set of games Ive seen him coach on tv, he's been solid as an in-game coach as well.

Motivating them to go to class or to graduate. OTOH . . .

[BD80]

... When I say DBR, I am hardly referring to the great unwashed mass of posters on this bulletin board-- ...

Excuse me. A great many of us wash. It's not like we're all from West Virginia!

[sagegrouse]

Everyone who has posted on this thread today -- GO TO YOUR ROOMS! There is no point in endless bickering.

And BTW, you all missed a chance to discuss an ACC coach who was fired. Wasn't quality of ACC coaching the original purpose of the thread?

sagegrouse

[devil84]

For those joining us late, more than a few posts have been deleted due to some verbal sparring (to which sagegrouse refers in his post, above).

Keep it civil and on topic, please.

[DukeAppWV]

Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
I think the point is: even the casual fans (who are generally more forgiving than the hardcore fans) don't think he's that great.

Well, now that you've set up a strawman, torn it down, and drawn a few responses, I'm not sure where this is going. How about we just rank the ACC coaches based on their overall coaching ability? Here's my list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Greenburg
4. Roy Williams
5. Hamilton
6. Bennett
7. Skinner
8. Purnell
9. Hewitt
10. Haith
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

If you disagree with any, please explain why instead of just saying I have my head in the sand.

------------------------------------------------
I do feel you have a couple out of place
1. K - no question
2/3 the Williams Boy - I give the edge to Gary because he has done more with less than Roy - we see this season if Roy doesn't have All-Americans he struggles
4-10 - I won't go with an exact order - just my observations -
----Haith - good young coach who has had only one top recruit yet his teams play with heart and passion to the very end - see this season's ACC tourney - He has NO homecourt advantage and according to the ACC head of officials - Miami has for 2 years gotten the worst calls/no calls, whatever (article on acc sports journal with Clougherty)
----Bennett - I believe has a chance to be a superstar coach - won at Wash State and should be able to get UVA back into the mix
----Purnell - think he does an excellent job at a football school located in the middle of nowhere - hope he gets that NO NCAA wins thing off his shoulders soon
----Greenburg - Way too high on your list - he plays the media and they love him thus creating this trivia question ---- THERE ARE ONLY 2 ACC BASKETBALL COACHES SELECTED COACH OF THE YEAR BY THE MEDIA WHO HAVE NOT TAKEN THEIR TEAMS TO THE NCAA TOURNAMENT THE YEAR OF SELECTION - WHO?
answer --------- That would be Seth Greenburg - TWICE
----Hamilton - I think he does a good job, he seems to always have a mix of outside shooters and inside power - probably as good as FSU can have - plus with that stare of his - man, I would give him my best effort
----Gaudio - I believe he has had problems handling kids who want to be NBA players first and Wake teammates second - not sure he isn't in over his head a little
----Lowe - puzzling to me because I felt he would be able to recruit better and coach better - I see Sid destined for a return to the NBA

11. Hewitt - Absolutely the worst coach in the conference - surely a great guy and great recruiter but year in and year out he has as much, if not more talent than anyone, and they continually underachieve - Have you ever seen GT run a set play on offense????
12. Skinner since he was just fired (although I think he was a better coach than some ahead of him)