Why does DBR ignore reality on ACC coaches

[miramar]

Now I love Haith! Anybody who beats Seth is fine with me.

Actually, I have watched a good number of UM's games this year (five of their home games), and the team has played very poorly in the ACC. They have blown leads and generally played dumb basketball at the end of games, but they seem to have gotten a new life in the tournament.

In the long run, Haith will only be successful if he gets a recruiting base in Florida. He only has two FL players (both seniors), so he has to fight for the leftovers in other regions. UM can't have more players from NC than from FL.

[wilko]

I'll love Haith after they rollover for us tomorrow... If they come out on top, not so much..

[gumbomoop]

R. Williams is being ridiculously (and unfairly) crucified by DBR right now..., however unfounded their accusations might be...

As one who has authored several - make that quite a few - posts on the Roy thread, I accept your challenge, thusly: It's true that I and others have approached the ridiculous in the relentlessness with which we have "crucified" Ol' Roy. The substantive posts have hardly been either "unfair" or "unfounded," however, for their foundation is the horrible coaching job he's done this season, made more "ridiculous" by his immature, embarrassing, third-person-pseudo-self-psychoanalysis in repeated pressers. He has demonstrated no ability whatsoever, at least this season, with these, his own recruited, players, to adjust to their particular strengths and weaknesses. And, despicably, he's blamed it all on them; all the more despicable for his repeated pretense at taking the blame, followed by a "but they gotta change." Ol' Roy is the exemplar of the rule, "Ignore everything before the but."

[brevity]

Geez. Lotta time on your hands? This clutters cyberspace

So, start your own site?

Don't discourage long posts with the old "you must have too much time on your hands" reply. We're all at least somewhat guilty of that. I don't entirely agree with the OP's assessments, but I thought they made interesting reading. The Main Topic Board is here, in part, to encourage dissent.

[Exiled_Devil]

You clearly have an issue with this if you are going back to DBR's take on Barnes at Clemson - DBR barely existed before he left for Texas.

As for the current ACC coaches, DBR's positions are not that far from the Triangle sports radio personalities, so its not like they are way off in left field.

The 99.9 radio guys this afternoon were talking about how the ACC coaches with the exception of Coach K don't seem to be trying to play their way into the NCAA's. Given that so far (as of 4:40 left in NCSU/FSU) the only higher seed to win in the ACC Tourney has been Duke (and Gtech yesterday), its easy to attribute the poor coaching of the 'superior talented' teams. Especially with the low scoring that has occurred this weekend.

I will say that with Lowe, the argument that he has gotten the most out of the talent he has had and is due to get some great talent next year. He deserves the time he has had, and has shown progress.

Roy does deserve ridicule for this year - in particular, for his reaction to his team. His coaching is not up to what people expect of him, and its easy to look for this as a pattern in our rival.

I can't speak to directly about the teams outside of NC.

However, I don't know what you want from the analysis of our former players and coaches - sure, most of the stories are about when they are doing well and feel good. As a Duke fan site, that makes perfect sense to me. I'd rather read about Snyder's redemption as a D-League coach than his failures in Mizzou. I'd rather read about Jwill's analysis than his 1 season and injury, too.

[Mudge]

Geez. Lotta time on your hands? This clutters cyberspace

So, start your own site?

Feel free not to read-- just as I sometimes tune out DBR's editorials, because of their illogic-- and cyberspace was MEANT for clutter.

[Mudge]

As one who has authored several - make that quite a few - posts on the Roy thread, I accept your challenge, thusly: It's true that I and others have approached the ridiculous in the relentlessness with which we have "crucified" Ol' Roy. The substantive posts have hardly been either "unfair" or "unfounded," however, for their foundation is the horrible coaching job he's done this season, made more "ridiculous" by his immature, embarrassing, third-person-pseudo-self-psychoanalysis in repeated pressers. He has demonstrated no ability whatsoever, at least this season, with these, his own recruited, players, to adjust to their particular strengths and weaknesses. And, despicably, he's blamed it all on them; all the more despicable for his repeated pretense at taking the blame, followed by a "but they gotta change." Ol' Roy is the exemplar of the rule, "Ignore everything before the but."

You (and the DBR editors) act like this is the first time RWilliams has had to coach his own players-- the guy's been to numerous Final Fours with his own players in the past-- how did he do coaching his own players the last two years?

There's no denying RWilliams has far surpassed Coach K's results over the last 5 years-- any more than a Carolina fan would have been able to argue that K had not surpassed Smith's results over the previous 5 years, from the vantage point of the 1992-93 season. In neither case, does it mean that the up-and-comer's five-year span of success allows him to claim that he has surpassed the substantive accomplishments of the older incumbent's much lengthier career... just as one season of relative incompetence does not invalidate that 5-year period of excellence (in 2010 for RWilliams, any more than 2007 did for Coach K).

In any event, if K can bounce back with an unexpected national title this year, the way that Smith did in 1993, I will be only too happy to acknowledge those parallels.

As for your comments on RWilliams-- I never saw them-- when I said DBR, I was referring to the site's authors' editorials... the fact that they have been watching ACC basketball for a really long time does not seem to have increased their insight on the activity.

[Johnboy]

florida....back to back titles...

My point exactly! When Florida repeated, the SEC was the #1 ranked conference. In 2006 when Florida won, the SEC had two final four teams (LSU).

[BD80]

Who has done the worst coaching job this year, Barnes or ol' roy?

Two of the most talented teams in the nation and the average ranking is ... Not Ranked.

Barnes sure can recruit, but he sure can't coach. At least ol' roy doesn't PREVENT his team from winning a NC.

[gumbomoop]

You (and the DBR editors) act like this is the first time RWilliams has had to coach his own players-- the guy's been to numerous Final Fours with his own players in the past-- how did he do coaching his own players the last two years?

There's no denying RWilliams has far surpassed Coach K's results over the last 5 years-- any more than a Carolina fan would have been able to argue that K had not surpassed Smith's results over the previous 5 years, from the vantage point of the 1992-93 season. In neither case, does it mean that the up-and-comer's five-year span of success allows him to claim that he has surpassed the substantive accomplishments of the older incumbent's much lengthier career... just as one season of relative incompetence does not invalidate that 5-year period of excellence (in 2010 for RWilliams, any more than 2007 did for Coach K).

In any event, if K can bounce back with an unexpected national title this year, the way that Smith did in 1993, I will be only too happy to acknowledge those parallels.

As for your comments on RWilliams-- I never saw them-- when I said DBR, I was referring to the site's authors' editorials... the fact that they have been watching ACC basketball for a really long time does not seem to have increased their insight on the activity.

OK, I accept your correction that your references were to DBR, not Roy thread. My mistake.

Still, as to the substance of your complaint against DBR - that they have ridiculously and unfairly blasted Roy for unfounded reasons - I'm happy to defend DBR, by making precisely the substantive points I made in my post. Granted, I'm referring only to this year, and it's possible your complaint against DBR re Roy refers to prior years. I further grant your point that this season of incompetence [nothing "relative" about it, however] does not invalidate his many accomplishments. Indeed, it's his total failure this year that has obviously fascinated lots of us. We didn't see it coming. We couldn't imagine the abject failure of this season's Heels, nor Roy's total failure. Again, not relative failure this season. Total. Ask I[diot]Carolina. They'll confirm.

It's surely reasonable for any reader of your post to think your anger at DBR re Roy has something to do with this season, and what I'd insist are reasonable and fair critiques of Roy's abysmal coaching, and ever more abysmal excuses. His coaching and [to me more troubling] behavior this season has been crummy. His repeated comments that say "I'm responsible" at the same time he's pointing fingers at players has been... crummy.

FWIW, I think Roy has obviously come close to some deep personal chasm this year - especially as he has said so, publicly, repeatedly - but I'd guess that both he and the Heels will rebound next year. But only if he can find answers to PG and chemistry/leadership issues, the latter of which begins with the coach.

[Mudge]

OK, I accept your correction that your references were to DBR, not Roy thread. My mistake.

Still, as to the substance of your complaint against DBR - that they have ridiculously and unfairly blasted Roy for unfounded reasons - I'm happy to defend DBR, by making precisely the substantive points I made in my post. Granted, I'm referring only to this year, and it's possible your complaint against DBR re Roy refers to prior years. I further grant your point that this season of incompetence [nothing "relative" about it, however] does not invalidate his many accomplishments. Indeed, it's his total failure this year that has obviously fascinated lots of us. We didn't see it coming. We couldn't imagine the abject failure of this season's Heels, nor Roy's total failure. Again, not relative failure this season. Total. Ask I[diot]Carolina. They'll confirm.

It's surely reasonable for any reader of your post to think your anger at DBR re Roy has something to do with this season, and what I'd insist are reasonable and fair critiques of Roy's abysmal coaching, and ever more abysmal excuses. His coaching and [to me more troubling] behavior this season has been crummy. His repeated comments that say "I'm responsible" at the same time he's pointing fingers at players has been... crummy.

FWIW, I think Roy has obviously come close to some deep personal chasm this year - especially as he has said so, publicly, repeatedly - but I'd guess that both he and the Heels will rebound next year. But only if he can find answers to PG and chemistry/leadership issues, the latter of which begins with the coach.

Just to be clear-- I am not angry at DBR over criticism of Roy-- I luxuriate in the losing over in Chapel Hill, along with the best of Duke fans-- this year has been better than any year in recent memory, save the Doherty meltdown 8-20 year.

I am merely saying that it is idiotic to try to make all these inferences about Roy from this year, and suggest that somehow he is finished, or incompetent, or not likely to be right back snapping at Duke's throat in 2 years (I don't see how he does it next year, because he doesn't have a ready remedy to his complete lack of competent point guard play, and Duke is likely to get substantively better at guard next year than they are this year).

Rather, I am annoyed that DBR has shown such a long-term, biased view against certain coaches in the ACC (Ellis, Kennedy, Barnes, Greenberg, Odom)-- and it seems as though that bias is, at least to some degree, driven by a double standard that gives extra credit to people DBR sees as breaking down racial barriers (Steve Robinson at FSU, Pernell at Clemson, Lowe at NCSU)... though this doesn't entirely explain it, as DBR has long-since abandoned the Hewitt and Skinner bandwagons, and was never on the Hamilton or Haith bandwagons, despite their excellent results. It just seems that, in DBR's mind, some coaches can do no wrong, and that is often driven by those coaches' stature as civil-rights icons (cf.- both Thompsons, Cheney, Haskins at UTEP).

[Cockabeau]

Ask any casual Boston College fan if you think AL Skinner is an excellent coach.

[Dukeface88]

Just to be clear-- I am not angry at DBR over criticism of Roy-- I luxuriate in the losing over in Chapel Hill, along with the best of Duke fans-- this year has been better than any year in recent memory, save the Doherty meltdown 8-20 year.

I am merely saying that it is idiotic to try to make all these inferences about Roy from this year, and suggest that somehow he is finished, or incompetent, or not likely to be right back snapping at Duke's throat in 2 years (I don't see how he does it next year, because he doesn't have a ready remedy to his complete lack of competent point guard play, and Duke is likely to get substantively better at guard next year than they are this year).

The consensus on Roy isn't based on this year. Duke fans have been saying the same thing (good recruiter, poor motivator, average strategist at best) since he showed up. This season just confirmed it.

[JG Nothing]

The consensus on Roy isn't based on this year. Duke fans have been saying the same thing (good recruiter, poor motivator, average strategist at best) since he showed up. This season just confirmed it.

I have no respect for Roy Williams particularly after his whiny, self-indulgent behavior this season, but come on. You think he is just a "good recruiter, poor motivator, average strategist at best?" According to wikipedia, Williams has seven Final Fours, two national championships, and has won 80% of his games. Apparently, he has been doing something very well for the past twenty years.

[Mudge]

Ask any casual Boston College fan if you think AL Skinner is an excellent coach.

Uh, yeah, that's the problem-- I'm not really interested in what the dilettantes think-- you're asking casual fans, which is kind of like asking casual physics students what they think of the theory of relativity.

[El_Diablo]

Uh, yeah, that's the problem-- I'm not really interested in what the dilettantes think-- you're asking casual fans, which is kind of like asking casual physics students what they think of the theory of relativity.

I think the point is: even the casual fans (who are generally more forgiving than the hardcore fans) don't think he's that great.

Well, now that you've set up a strawman, torn it down, and drawn a few responses, I'm not sure where this is going. How about we just rank the ACC coaches based on their overall coaching ability? Here's my list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Greenburg
4. Roy Williams
5. Hamilton
6. Bennett
7. Skinner
8. Purnell
9. Hewitt
10. Haith
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

If you disagree with any, please explain why instead of just saying I have my head in the sand.

[MADevil30]

I'd like to strongly agree about Al Skinner. Growing up as a BC fan (only a five minute walk away), I was really shocked that DBR included him in their list of underachieving ACC coaches. Yes, their record has declined a bit, but this analysis misses a few important facts.

First, BC's earliest years in the ACC were some of (if not THE) best teams in school history. 2006 was easily the best the Eagles have been in recent memory, and so it is not surprising that their records in conference in those first years were much better than current. As an aside, noting that they were very successful in the Big East immediately before the switch must take into account that not only were those usually good BC teams, they were also unusually weak years for the Big East on the whole.

More importantly, Skinner has always built his teams into winners by getting the most out of his players. It is really really hard to recruit basketball players to BC. Skinner has made his name not by getting blue chippers, but by searching out diamonds in the rough. Troy Bell, Craig Smith, Jared Dudley, Sean Marshall, and Tyreese Rice weren't seriously recruited by any other major programs, but Skinner found them and built solid teams around them. I think he probably deserves credit for developing them as well, as Smith and Dudley have even continued to longer than expected NBA careers. But its also really hard to keep hitting those diamonds in the rough successfully; more often than not, they don't pan out, and when that happens its tough to compete in a league like the ACC. Skinner has made the most out of a really tough basketball situation.

Finally, I'm always impressed with how hard BC plays us. Even when their record is not good, they make us work for the win, and even come out on top more often then you might expect.

I'd be willing to say that Skinner is one of the more underrated coaches in the country, let alone the ACC. DBR really missed on that one, at least in my book.

[Zeb]

Here's my list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Greenburg
4. Roy Williams
5. Hamilton
6. Bennett
7. Skinner
8. Purnell
9. Hewitt
10. Haith
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

If you disagree with any, please explain why instead of just saying I have my head in the sand.

C"mon - we can hate the heels all we want but putting a guy who has won 2 of the last 5 NC's at 4th? Behind a guy who has won nothing? Please. That is embarrassing.

Assuming by ranking coaches we are ranking all aspects of their job including recruiting, player development, staff, strategy, tactics--the whole shebang--then there is no question. K and Roy are clearly number 1 & 2. Gary is 3rd. Then there's a big gap.

I am totally in agreement on Gaudio being last--he is awful.

[Kfanarmy]

Uh, yeah, that's the problem-- I'm not really interested in what the dilettantes think-- you're asking casual fans, which is kind of like asking casual physics students what they think of the theory of relativity.

They're dilettants and you're basketball's equivalent of Einstein. No arrogane in this series of posts...though I have to admit getting bored halfway through the opinion and moving on. Of course were this physics, it would be proveable and not just a bunch of opinion(ated thought).

[El_Diablo]

C"mon - we can hate the heels all we want but putting a guy who has won 2 of the last 5 NC's at 4th? Behind a guy who has won nothing? Please. That is embarrassing.

Assuming by ranking coaches we are ranking all aspects of their job including recruiting, player development, staff, strategy, tactics--the whole shebang--then there is no question. K and Roy are clearly number 1 & 2. Gary is 3rd. Then there's a big gap.

I am totally in agreement on Gaudio being last--he is awful.

Maybe I tend to value in-game coaching more. If all these coaches were given the same team and played a round robin after a couple weeks of practice, I think Roy would finish somewhere in the middle. After seeing this year's version of Roy...maybe below the middle. Meanwhile, Gary and Seth tend to do pretty well with players who aren't 5-star studs.

I originally had Roy as third overall, but I felt the need to penalize him a little for the truly terrible job he's done this year despite having 7 McDonalds All-Americans on his roster.