PTI

[Classof06]

I didn't think what Kornheiser said was the end of the world and I don't think he should've been suspended....but I totally understand why he was.

As someone who watches ESPN religiously, I thought Storm's outfit, while not earth-stopping, was inappropriate. Being a 25 year-old male, I didn't necessarily mind but thought it was poor form for a representative of ESPN. Storm's outfit on the Sports Reporters this past Sunday morning was also a bit racy, proving she either didn't get it or didn't care.

Kornheiser had to have known he was putting himself in harm's way and probably isn't shocked with his short "sabbatical". Bottom line, I think it's safe to guess that when you're a sportscaster or broadcaster, you should never be noticed for your outfit.

[allenmurray]

Storm's outfit on the Sports Reporters this past Sunday morning was also a bit racy, proving she either didn't get it or didn't care.

Storm has a boss (or bosses). If the producers of her show, or the executives at ESPN, had a problem with her wardrobe it would change. The idea that "she doesn't get it" seems a bit naive. She is not hte only player in this bit of Kabuki theatre.

Bottom line, I think it's safe to guess that when you're a sportscaster or broadcaster, you should never be noticed for your outfit.

I would agree with that completely if you substituted the word journalist for spotscaster/broadcaster. However, ESPN does not have journalists, they have entertainers. Even the ones who began as journalists learned if they wanted to stay with ESPN they would have to be entertainers first.

[SilkyJ]

Damn, wish I hadn't read that article as I was kind of over this whole thing.

But this sentence caught my attention:

A smart ESPN lawyer recognized that if the network took no action against Kornheiser, the company was vulnerable to charges that Storm and other female employees work in a sexually hostile environment.

Which got me to thinking, do you think this whole thing is really just for ESPN's appearances to protect them legally? Especially given the way TK has taken his medicine, I can see his bosses basically saying "Look, you were out of line and you know it. Do you deserve a 2 week suspension? Probably not, but we need to protect our butts and you've got more money than God, so let's get this thing over with."

Would be curious for our many lawyer posters to chime in here on whether this is a typical CYA (cover your buttocks) move or not...

Also, this phrase caught my attention "He’s a 61-year-old, outspoken rebel who is always going to occasionally clash with management"

"always going to occasionally" yuck

[Kfanarmy]

playing the race card is what jason whitlock EXCELLS in...

race card in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1,


>>A. She’s still outraged about learning she’s the lone, moderately attractive white woman in North America not propositioned by Tiger Woods. <<

It would seem to me that Whitlock's comment was more to show that Hannah was trying to attract versus represent ESPN and using Tiger's recent escapades to make the point. Indeed all of Tiger's paramours were white. Whitlock's comments, while being tasteless humor to some, really don't rise to the level of "playing the race card" in my mind. If Tiger had been dating only black women and Hannah were black, the joke would still have worked. Race isn't really the issue, what "makes" the joke/comparison is what is in common between the women. If they all had been blondes that also would have "worked." I just don't think race was the issue so much as Hannah trying to be as attractive in the same ways as the Tiger harem.

[Classof06]

Storm has a boss (or bosses). If the producers of her show, or the executives at ESPN, had a problem with her wardrobe it would change. The idea that "she doesn't get it" seems a bit naive. She is not hte only player in this bit of Kabuki theatre.



I would agree with that completely if you substituted the word journalist for spotscaster/broadcaster. However, ESPN does not have journalists, they have entertainers. Even the ones who began as journalists learned if they wanted to stay with ESPN they would have to be entertainers first.

Regarding the "didn't get it" I said that was one plausible reason. You're right, if her producers were OK with it then Storm probably didn't care...the other plausible option I presented.

Even if you consider ESPN anchors as journalists/broadcasters/entertainers or whatever, we can all agree they, and their employer, still adhere to some type of corporate code. You don't see the male anchors in anything but a suit or business casual at the least. And none of the other female anchors at ESPN dress anywhere near to what we saw from Storm last week. So, I'm gonna stick with the "don't let your outfit distract" mantra, regardless of what you want to call ESPN personalities.

[greybeard]

Storm has a boss (or bosses). If the producers of her show, or the executives at ESPN, had a problem with her wardrobe it would change. The idea that "she doesn't get it" seems a bit naive. She is not hte only player in this bit of Kabuki theatre.



I would agree with that completely if you substituted the word journalist for spotscaster/broadcaster. However, ESPN does not have journalists, they have entertainers. Even the ones who began as journalists learned if they wanted to stay with ESPN they would have to be entertainers first.

So why the ties and jackets for all the males? Why the double standard? And, if anyone approved of her "outfit" that day they should be fired. Do not cross go; do not collect two hundred dollars. Fired. It was tawdry and cheap, and out of place with the show, unless this was a parody on SNL.

Judging from the fire storm that Storm created, come on, nobody believes that she did not blow her top, if she could get it off (badaboom), when she heard about T's comments and demand blood. Good thing for T he don't have any. Awe, what the heck, T can do two weeks standing on his head, so what am I in a tither about.

I'll tell you what. What happens if T and Wilbon are cowed by this event into becoming like the homogenized wannabes who, in addition to talking sports, all copy T and Wilbon and try to talk movies and do schtick, but do it with no zing, no zip. Please, Tony, for the kids, don't lose the zip. Do it for the kids, Tony, for the kids.

footnote: T used to drip with sarcasm when intoning that phrase, "do it for the kids"; hated when his colleagues would criticize players for not doing the right thing, for not "doing it for the kids." G-d help us, who's gonna protect us from the false sanctimony now? I know, Ms. Storm and the ESPN bosses. Right!

[allenmurray]

So why the ties and jackets for all the males? Why the double standard? And, if anyone approved of her "outfit" that day they should be fired. Do not cross go; do not collect two hundred dollars. Fired. It was tawdry and cheap, and out of place with the show, unless this was a parody on SNL.

I never said there was not a double standard - that was not the point I was making. I was responding to folks who wanted to place blame on Storm as though she makes all her own calls. If the network had problems with her wardrobe they would have said so. If they didn't it wasn't Tony's place to do it for them. He behaved in a boorish manner. But the rest is pretty typical reaction. A sportscaster says on air that another sports announcer is to old to dress the way she is dressing and compares her to a prostitute (Holden Caulfield reference). Instead of him being criticized for his boorishness the blame is shifted back to the person who was insulted - classic. She gets criticized for the way she dresses. Only a few steps away from the "well what did she expect if she was dressed like that" mentality that some of us hoped was gone.

Judging from the fire storm that Storm created, come on, nobody believes that she did not blow her top, if she could get it off (badaboom),

Wow.

I'll tell you what. What happens if T and Wilbon are cowed by this event into becoming like the homogenized wannabes who, in addition to talking sports, all copy T and Wilbon and try to talk movies and do schtick, but do it with no zing, no zip. Please, Tony, for the kids, don't lose the zip. Do it for the kids, Tony, for the kids.

They have already become homogenized. Their show lost ts "zing and zip" a while back. They both now have too many irons in the fire to give the show the attention it deserves. They've been phoning it in for a couple years.

footnote: T used to drip with sarcasm when intoning that phrase, "do it for the kids"; hated when his colleagues would criticize players for not doing the right thing, for not "doing it for the kids." G-d help us, who's gonna protect us from the false sanctimony now?

Tony is an entertainer - I dn't need him to protect me from anything. I also think he was much better as a features writer/general interest columnist than as a sports guy.

[77devil]

Also, this phrase caught my attention "He’s a 61-year-old, outspoken rebel who is always going to occasionally clash with management"

"always going to occasionally" yuck

Whitlock obviously did not receive an A in freshman English at Duke.

[allenmurray]

Regarding the "didn't get it" I said that was one plausible reason. You're right, if her producers were OK with it then Storm probably didn't care...the other plausible option I presented.

Even if you consider ESPN anchors as journalists/broadcasters/entertainers or whatever, we can all agree they, and their employer, still adhere to some type of corporate code. You don't see the male anchors in anything but a suit or business casual at the least. And none of the other female anchors at ESPN dress anywhere near to what we saw from Storm last week. So, I'm gonna stick with the "don't let your outfit distract" mantra, regardless of what you want to call ESPN personalities.

You are right. I should have said, "I'd agree with you 100% . . . (instead I agree with you only 99%). What a professional wears should never distract others from the message. I just find it slightly less true for entertainers than for journalists. I think there is an order of importnace.

The anchorperson on the evening news dresses more formally than the host of Entertainment Tonight. It isn't a good idea for either of them to be so distracting in their appearance that it takes away from the message. On the other hand, I don't expect that Storm or the hosts of ET will have to break witn with, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I have news of a tragic occurance . . ." and then go on to talk about massive deaths, or some such thing. So their need to dress conservatively and in a non-distracting way is not as great. After all, it is a sports show, which is entertainment. Let's not get too carried away with the real (lack of) importance of what either Hanna Storm of Tony Kornheiser does for a living. How they dress is not the same issues as how a "real" news anchor dresses.

[DukieInKansas]

I haven't watched the credits at the end of Sportscenter in a while, but isn't there a line about the wardrobe being provided by XYZ line?

I've never been a fan of boots with a skirt that doesn't come down to just below the top of the boot. That was my main dislike of the outfit. I will need to find a better picture or video as I didn't think it looked overly tight.

[greybeard]

Allenmurray, how can you possibly believe that Storm's producer "approved" of her attire. She was dressed inappropriately and you are the only one I have seen anywhere who has remotely suggested otherwise. If by "approved" you mean they didn't force her to change, we can see why now can't we.

I don't know if things have changed over the years, but T and Rome used to throw down against one another big time when both did radio for ESPN and Rome wanted a piece of T's time slot in DC. It was vicious, and T had great fun with it. Won too.

If you don't like PTI and think it stinks you are in the minority. However, you might recall that when Tony did radio for ESPN he said it himself, named his program "This-Show-Stinks." At least he and Wibon don't get down in the minutia of how to run a trap against a gape four set or some such, and then make idiots of themselves running the plays in office attire so we will be "educated" about the game.

Do I think that ESPN and other sports broadcast entities only hire female talking heads who are babes in order to pander to its largely male audience that skews on the younger side. You bet. Do I not like it. Even more you bet. Does that have anything to do with how Storm was dressed? No.

I personally think that ESPN's growth has done more harm than good for college sports, but I suspect that I am in the minority. But when they fool with a program that is last skewed to my demographic, or at least is not designed to be off putting to it, I draw the line. I can hear T say it now, "Some line, Ralph, some line."

[cato]

Which got me to thinking, do you think this whole thing is really just for ESPN's appearances to protect them legally?

I am not an employment attorney, but I did share a bed with one last night. Two things: 1) isolated comments do not a hostile work environment make, 2) a single comment can be addressed by a written warning, or a number of other measures.

Of course, we don't know the rest of the facts, and you can be assured that ESPN does indeed have good counsel. There could be any number of things going on that we don't know about -- and wouldn't have known about if Kornholio hadn't decided to channel his inner greybeard in front of an open mic.

[calltheobvious]

I am not an employment attorney, but I did share a bed with one last night. Two things: 1) isolated comments do not a hostile work environment make, 2) a single comment can be addressed by a written warning, or a number of other measures.

Of course, we don't know the rest of the facts, and you can be assured that ESPN does indeed have good counsel. There could be any number of things going on that we don't know about -- and wouldn't have known about if Kornholio hadn't decided to channel his inner greybeard in front of an open mic.

Cato, I'd like to file a complaint. After laughing boisterously at your last line, I was forced to try to explain myself to everyone in my office. You try condensing the history of Kornheiser and Hannah Storm's wardrobe choices into about 30 seconds. People were not amused.

[greybeard]

I am not an employment attorney, but I did share a bed with one last night. Two things: 1) isolated comments do not a hostile work environment make, 2) a single comment can be addressed by a written warning, or a number of other measures.

Of course, we don't know the rest of the facts, and you can be assured that ESPN does indeed have good counsel. There could be any number of things going on that we don't know about -- and wouldn't have known about if Kornholio hadn't decided to channel his inner greybeard in front of an open mic.

Hey, I did too, share a bed with an employment lawyer last night. Say, you're not . . . . Not possible, she knows better than to think that T would channel anything of me. Thanks for the flattery though. BTW, you don't need to be an employment lawyer to know that ESPN isn't the least bit concerned that T might sue; I mean, just because he's my friend, don't mean he's nuts.

[SilkyJ]

Hey, I did too, share a bed with an employment lawyer last night. Say, you're not . . . . Not possible, she knows better than to think that T would channel anything of me. Thanks for the flattery though. BTW, you don't need to be an employment lawyer to know that ESPN isn't the least bit concerned that T might sue; I mean, just because he's my friend, don't mean he's nuts.

He is, however, literate. No one is talking about TK suing. We (I) was referring to the possibility of a sexual harassment suit down the line from a WOMAN and whether this suspension was an attempt to demonstrate that ESPN "cracks down" on this type of stuff, does not tolerate sexual harassment, etc. etc.

[greybeard]

He is, however, literate. No one is talking about TK suing. We (I) was referring to the possibility of a sexual harassment suit down the line from a WOMAN and whether this suspension was an attempt to demonstrate that ESPN "cracks down" on this type of stuff, does not tolerate sexual harassment, etc. etc.

I didn't read what you wrote and was addressing Cato's post. If you say that ESPN was concerned about a comment made by someone not acting in its employ about how someone was dressed, which was below standards of common industry standards, and that that is why they disciplined T why it must be so.

I don't think that it is, but if you say so, it must be right. Or whatever.

[SilkyJ]

I didn't read what you wrote and was addressing Cato's post. If you say that ESPN was concerned about a comment made by someone not acting in its employ about how someone was dressed, which was below standards of common industry standards, and that that is why they disciplined T why it must be so.

I don't think that it is, but if you say so, it must be right. Or whatever.

I was more posing a question, but you keep on commenting on things you haven't read.

Also, cato was responding to my post. But lord knows you just right whatever comes to mind on that particular day...

[greybeard]

I was more posing a question, but you keep on commenting on things you haven't read.

Also, cato was responding to my post. But lord knows you just right whatever comes to mind on that particular day...

Sorry that I failed to follow back on Cato's post. I noted that Cato sleeps with someone who is an employment lawyer, thinks that ESPN over reacted, and thought that T had "channeled his inner greybeard." I riffed off that, was trying to be funny. I think that this entire issue is funny, except that my man T has taken some hits. NBL for my man T. Sorry, I didn't think anyone here was treating this seriously.

But, to be serious for a moment, I think that T is incredibily thankful that he is getting paid to rap with Wilbon on PTI and that the last thing he would want to do is tick off the people who pay him to do that. The last thing.

[weezie]

This thread is now making me sad. Let's be friends, or at least let's find something else to gnaw on.
More Roy bashing, that's the ticket!

[allenmurray]

Do I think that ESPN and other sports broadcast entities only hire female talking heads who are babes in order to pander to its largely male audience that skews on the younger side. You bet.

And, if anyone approved of her "outfit" that day they should be fired. Do not cross go; do not collect two hundred dollars. Fired. It was tawdry and cheap, and out of place with the show, unless this was a parody on SNL.

Judging from the fire storm that Storm created, come on, nobody believes that she did not blow her top, if she could get it off (badaboom), when she heard about T's comments and demand blood.

The woman, to put it more bluntly than T did, was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it.

The next time the bosses at ESPN have a women on who is not a complete babe (except for those few who have earned their bones as credible sports commentators over a considerable period of time) will be the first.

Hannah was dressed like, well, I think that T said it gently. Ridiculously tall red patent leather boots, a little girl's mini skirt in what appears a shoddy play on a classic parochial school look, come on, Hannah, what are we trying to say here?

. . . tell Hannah that she really ain't representing the product. OR, MAYBE SHE IS. MAYBE WHAT SHE WAS PORTRAYING IS WHAT THEY THINK WE GUYS REALLY WANT TO SEE. If, so, maybe the suits were not upset with T for dissing Hannah.

Continue to defend and to be the guy who thinks it is okay to call a woman a protitute or trollop based on how she is dressed.

Continue to defend and to be the guy who can't recognize that women can do the job of sportscaster just as well as men and get hired on things other than being "babes".

Continue to defend and to be the guy who insuniautes that a professional chose her clothing based on "selling herself as the product".

Continue to defend and to be the guy who makes sexualized jokes about women's clothing.

Please, greybeard, continue to do this. We need someone to remind us of the macho male culture that dominates sports and the rest of our society. Thankfully it is fading, and women are subjected to this kind of harassment (and harassment is exactly what it is) far less than they used to be. But having stark reminders of the ways in whch men continue to think they have free rein to pass judgement on women based on appearance, and to make sexualized comments and jokes about them, might just make it fade even faster.