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Thread: PTI

  1. #81
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    Mar 2008
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    Sewanee, Tennessee

    biased

    ...but I like TK and MW. I don't know what I think about the comments (which is one of the things I like about Wilbon - he'll sometimes say 'I don't know what I think'), but I can't help wondering, if I were paid to talk all day, how often I would say something boneheaded.

  2. #82
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1999ballboy View Post
    I usually enjoy watching Kornheiser, but his remarks were way out of line and the suspension is 100% deserved. I'm rather shocked that anybody thinks differently to be frank. There's no need to politicize this incident when sexism wasn't even the issue. Tony broke the rules. ESPN did not suspend him because Hannah Storm's a woman, they suspended him for breaking the rules. He acknowledged it on the air. You're very obviously not supposed to say that kind of thing about co-workers, and bringing their age into it doesn't help. It's not like anybody would react with anything but laughter if he criticized Madonna for wearing the same outfit, so the gender-double-standard card falls flat here. What's the big deal anyway? Two weeks.

    And so what if there is a gender double standard? The theory about business attire, sexism, etc. is not entirely incorrect but it's a pretty big oversimplification and in no way is it limited to ESPN. As part of our culture, women's fashion is less conservative and more individualistic than men's, even in business circles. Blame the media, etc., but at the end of the day women and men are both typically wearing what they want to. Men don't want to make a statement and have the image of the American masculine professional in mind. Women see other women in the media dressed more outlandishly, and they don't necessarily see the sexual aspects of it like men do- it's more of a form of self-expression, and they likely feel pressure from the members of their own sex to participate. So let's not make ESPN the bad guys (yeah, that's a phrase I never thought I'd say) for suspending the guy who made a really uncalled-for statement.
    Why is the double standard a non issue. The woman, to put it more bluntly than T did, was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it. Wasn't that the case? Has anyone, anywhere said that Hannah was dressed appropriately?

    No guy on ESPN would even think of doing anything but tie and jacket except Wilbon who gets away with $500 sweaters and $3000 sports jackets.

    ESPN obviously has a strict, and I mean very strict, dressing code for men. T has said repeatedly on the air that he believes that when men come to business they should dress like it. ESPN obviously believes the same. Hannah fell far below the standard in the poorest of taste. That she is a grown woman makes her dress indefensible; Tony said so, but not his bosses. How come?

    Clearly, ESPN sells sex; everybody on TV does. The next time the bosses at ESPN have a women on who is not a complete babe (except for those few who have earned their bones as credible sports commentators over a considerable period of time) will be the first. I'm fine with that, well, not really (I prefer my sports and appeals to my purient interests on different plates, thank you), but I don't count.

    Hannah on the other hand took this selling sex thing to a whole other level and it wasn't a higher one. Tony said so on a local radio show. BFD. The bosses were wrong and called out the wrong employee, imo.
    Last edited by greybeard; 02-25-2010 at 10:45 AM.

  3. #83
    Slate magazine's editor summarizes how Kornheiser regularly uses his bully pulpit to slam and insult his own colleagues.

    http://www.slate.com/id/2245796/

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by TNDukeFan View Post
    ...but I like TK and MW. I don't know what I think about the comments (which is one of the things I like about Wilbon - he'll sometimes say 'I don't know what I think'), but I can't help wondering, if I were paid to talk all day, how often I would say something boneheaded.
    Wilbon does say that a lot - which always struck me as odd. On the one hand it is kind of a "regular guy" approach, sharing his own uncertainty. On the other hand, he knows well ahead of time what the topics of the day will be, and has extraordinary access to sources of information. Thus it seem like an affectation to me.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    greater New Orleans area

    the bigger shame

    is that she was allowed to go on air dressed like that...a producer should have said...uh wait a minute, let's get you dressed appropriately.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    The woman, to put it more bluntly than T did, was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it.
    Oh, I get it, she was dressed like a prostitute, because she was wearing an outfit that (color aside) many women wear all the time! Stay classy, greybeard.

  7. #87
    I though Storm's outfit was really unattractive http://www.examiner.com/x-14380-Cele...-outfit-slutty But that is a matter of personal taste. It was hardly trolloplike. Her blouse was not all that tight or low cut, her skirt hardly a mini-skirt. Kornheiser was wrong.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Oh, I get it, she was dressed like a prostitute, because she was wearing an outfit that (color aside) many women wear all the time! Stay classy, greybeard.
    Agreed. If that was prostitute-like, then the whole of London must be one, big hooker gathering.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Why is the double standard a non issue. The woman, to put it more bluntly than T did, was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it. Wasn't that the case? Has anyone, anywhere said that Hannah was dressed appropriately?
    This is WAY too extreme. Change the channel to MTV if you want to see people dressed like "cheap trollops." Her outfit, from a point of view probably shared by the majority, yet still entirely subjective, was ugly and unflattering. And that's it. It wasn't hurting anybody except her own reputation and, by a bit of a long shot, ESPN's. And to resolve that issue, ESPN can, should, and probably did just tell her to please not dress like that again. It was a one-time incident and I'm sure she'll dress more tastefully next time. It's not as though it did irreparable damage to viewers, even the more conservative ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Clearly, ESPN sells sex; everybody on TV does.
    Yeah. They do. But Hannah picked her own outfit, and the consensus is that it was a poor choice. At least she was doing her job, which is more than you can say for Tony. It's not ESPN's duty to try to be heroes and reverse the sexual politics of our generation, when, as you acknowledge, "everybody" sells sex. The issue with Hannah can and should be resolved in private, while the issue with Tony was that by calling her out in public, he was overstepping the bounds of his job. This suspension seems to me like a fully professional decision that was made because Tony was not doing his job properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Hannah on the other hand took this selling sex thing to a whole other level and it wasn't a higher one.
    Really now? I'm looking at her, and I see a few inches of bare skin around the knees and a shirt that would be considered loose-fitting if worn by Erin Andrews. It's not selling until somebody buys it. If you don't feel sexually provoked, yet you look at the outfit and say to yourself, "Hmm... that COULD be CONSTRUED as sexually provocative," then it has no effect on you as a viewer, and you're really just being judgmental of someone's taste. On the other hand, people buy what Erin Andrews is selling every day and no one complains. What it all boils down to is these are really criticisms of her age and personal appearance more than anything else, which in turn proves that ESPN's attempts at "selling sex," in general, work, because the incident that finally turns into a big deal is one that is considered a failed attempt at selling sex. It's almost as though people are complaining that this particular attempt at selling sex didn't happen to work. Fundamentally, the outfit was only considered offensive because of the person wearing it.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    The woman . . . was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it. Wasn't that the case?
    Um, no, that wasn't the case. Your statements are way more offensive than even Tony's.

    Should I suppose that when you are walking downt he street and see a woman wearing a skirt tha comes to within about 3 inches of her knees, a sweater that is not overly tight nor very low cut, and a pair of boots that you assume she is a prostitute? Is that the jump your mind akes when a woman is dressed in a way that is not conservative? If so that says way more about you than it does about Hanna Storm.

    I (and I believe many others) found the outfit to be unattractive - but I (we) didn't make the jump to sexualized or prostitute attire - that was left to you and Tony. I'd like to think that even sports journalists and sports fans (male and female) can avoid making assumptions about a woman's intent, and morals based on our interpretations of how she is dressed.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by 1999ballboy View Post
    But Hannah picked her own outfit
    I agree with all your points, but I wonder if this is really the case. It seems that ESPN is probably big enough to have "wardrobe people" and I wouldn't be surprised if her clothes are not paid for and perhaps even (to some extent) selected by ESPN. I certainly don't know this for a fact, but it wouldn't be out of the question, even if only for practical reasons (otherwise you could end up with two reporters standng side-by-side in outfits that clash horribly).

  12. #92
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    Mar 2008
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    raleigh
    i thought the outfit was tight, dawg....

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    i thought the outfit was tight, dawg....
    Yea, but you're "the only one on the planet"

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by TNDukeFan View Post
    , but I can't help wondering, if I were paid to talk all day, how often I would say something boneheaded.
    Great point. If it were me, probably once an hour, but I like to run my mouth. One slip of this magnitude isn't a huge deal. Heck of a lot better than whatshisface and his "nappy" comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Why is the double standard a non issue.

    ....

    Hannah on the other hand took this selling sex thing to a whole other level and it wasn't a higher one. Tony said so on a local radio show. BFD. The bosses were wrong and called out the wrong employee, imo.
    I think we're missing the point, guys, which is that the outfit didn't matter. Its the calling out a colleague and calling her old, etc. that matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    i thought the outfit was tight, dawg....
    What a needful post. Thank you for your useful contributions to this board.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    I think we're missing the point, guys, which is that the outfit didn't matter. Its the calling out a colleague and calling her old, etc. that matters.
    He didn't call her "old", just old enough to know better. He didn't call her out for anything but her inappropriate dress. If Deon showed up in one of his bling costumes of yore and Tony was watching, he'd have said something about that too and ESPN would have done nothing, we all know that.

    That said, T has taken his punishment like a man, which given that he went to the same high school as me you will agree is deserving of high praise.

  16. #96
    Jason Whitlock is not everyone's favorite writer, but I usually appreciate his take. Here is his article on 'the storm brewing in Bristol' (sorry! his pun - not mine). Although unintential on Kornheiser's part, Whitlock suggests his remarks may have done ESPN a favor.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/i...ing-in-bristol

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    Jason Whitlock is not everyone's favorite writer, but I usually appreciate his take. Here is his article on 'the storm brewing in Bristol' (sorry! his pun - not mine). Although unintential on Kornheiser's part, Whitlock suggests his remarks may have done ESPN a favor.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/i...ing-in-bristol
    how many lines into his "take" did he bring up race?

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Hannah's outfit would only be appripriate if she was auditioning for the role of the mom in, "Freaky Friday."
    While I appreciate her desire to appear feminine, there's also a need for her to look professional (not the kind of professional as alluded to by Greybeard).
    She also needs to dress appropriately for her age, something most of us can relate to, when we voice our displeasure with the younger males and their jeans hanging down over their underwear.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    how many lines into his "take" did he bring up race?
    Speculating that Storm was upset because she was the only moderately attractive white woman not propositioned by Tiger Woods (whether he was joking or not) is about as classless as it gets. And in many ways was no different from what Kornheiser did; he used a woman's appearance/clothing as an excuse to make a cheap joke. It is something we should be past.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    playing the race card is what jason whitlock EXCELLS in...

    race card in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1,


    >>A. She’s still outraged about learning she’s the lone, moderately attractive white woman in North America not propositioned by Tiger Woods. <<

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