MBB: Georgia Tech 71, Duke 67 Post Game Thread

[gumbomoop]

Well, nope, for we like our Devils more than we like each other, because we get mighty irritated when other posters fail to appreciate our respective insights.

This understandably irritated thread - we fanatics do tend to take every loss pretty hard - has some distinct themes: (1) whether the GaTech game represents a telling example of one or more troubling "trends," specifically whether (2) KS has slumped irretrievably, owing either (a) to his being misdiagnosed as a perimeter player, or (b) to his being [already!] tired; this latter issue related to (3) the interminable debate over whether K has "regressed" [already!] to his preferred 7-man rotation; (4) whether Duke can't beat good teams on the road; (5) whether the guys revert to the 3-pt-emphasis too readily, because (6) despite the potential down low, hidden but real doubts haunt us re the collective O of the Bigs; ... OR, contrary to #1-6, whether (7) this loss represents absolutely no meaningful trends, because sometimes the shots don't fall, the other good team makes a good play or 2, we could just as easily by gushing about a gutsy win, etc.

As among the most enthusiastic of the loony optimist contingent re this year's Devils, I tend to support #7, but I discount none of the concerns as wacky or unworthy. [I'm confident you question-raisers are relieved to be judged neither wacky nor unworthy by the likes of a loony.] KS is certainly in a bit of a slump, so we're all likely to be edgy Wed eve v. BC, and really we'll be nervous until KS regains his form for several games in a row, say the next 4, through Clemson in 2 weeks. I"m guessing that we mostly agree, too, that even if circumstances just don't favor KS's return to "the 4," we'd hope maybe he and MP2 can invert [?] occasionally, to take advantage of MP2's size and skill as a passer into the post and of KS's moves down low. No one, I trust, wants KS to depend too heavily on jacking up 3's, so we hope for some variety there, thinking, too, that that's likely to factor into his un-slump.

As the OP of the recent "8/9-man rotation" thread, I'd obviously prefer a bit more development-PT for DD and RK, but several posters [or is it mostly the kind and gentle Jumbo?] assert pretty persuasively that RK's the #5 Big, and that is what it is.

Hoping not to blather interminably, suffice it for me to acknowledge that those who see in this loss ?-marks are raising legitimate issues. But IMO they go a bit too far in drawing ominous conclusions from this one game. I myself am dismayed that Duke, solidly better in the first half, was outplayed in the second. But this still looks like a 13-3 ACC team, and I'm not persuaded just now that the Devils will inevitably flame out in the NCAAT unless they're 15-1 on March 7.

[roywhite]

We out rebounded Tech 20 to 12 in the first half, that means in the 2nd half they out rebounded us 26 to 12, that's domination.

http://blogs.ajc.com/georgia-tech-sp...ia_tech_sports

Yeah, from the Atlanta paper (one of the DBR links)

But it didn’t matter, because Tech out-Duked Duke. The Yellow Jackets were 5-for-14 from 3-point range while Duke went only 6-for-28. Tech got to the free throw line twice as much as the Blue Devils, taking 28 free throws to Duke’s 14, and Tech went 17-of-18 from the line in the second half.

Tech outrebounded Duke 26-12 in the second half, including 11 offensive rebounds.

And this very important statistic for the Yellow Jackets – they committed only three turnovers in the second half.

Pretty strong second half by Tech.

[Indoor66]

We out rebounded Tech 20 to 12 in the first half, that means in the 2nd half they out rebounded us 26 to 12, that's domination.

Check your math...

[davekay1971]

We lost to a top 20 conference opponent in their arena when they played their best game (by far) this season and we, well, didn't. That happens. The sky is not falling.

[HB TAYLOR]

Its a different season but the look of the same teams we have the past 4 or 5 years, with the exception of Mason Plumlee. Taking way too many 3 pt shots (live by the 3 you die by the 3) and the inability of defending the high pick and roll with their bigs. First half we did, imo, a fantastic job defending the post but GT was not utilizing the pick and roll. On a positive note, Mason Plumlee is going to be a beast! And with Singler playing so poorly we still had a chance in the end.

[Faison1]

Man, that's a long thread to read through before posting....gotta admit that I skipped a few bank and forths between Jumbo and whoever else.

I was happy to see the toughness we displayed yesterday. I thought our bigs held their own against some NBA talent types between Lawal, Favors and Peacock. And overall, I like the style of play we are employing this year. The Plumlees have so much potential, and I am really psyched to see them develop. I'm not too worried about this loss, and if the team takes the right attitude, it may help Duke down the road.

I did find the following things troubling:

- in our two true road games so far, only 1 of our top 3 players has played well.
- I am not totally sure if Kyle is suited for the 3...he doesn't seem to have that first step required of a 3...but I'm hoping he proves me wrong
- Lance's stat line: 0-1 0-0 0-0 1 0 1 5 0 0 1 0 0 14
He played some outstanding D, but man, I wish he could give some more on the O side.
- 28 3 attempts seems like a lot....additionally, it seems to be a trend when our offense isn't working

Like I said, I'm not too worried. I will be worried if these same problems come up in the second half of the ACC.

[Saratoga2]

Singler is having trouble taking his man off the dribble. I believe Jumbo first suggested that we develop some screen plays to allow Singler to get open looks closer to the basket. I didn't see that happen last night. On the other hand, our ball handlers were getting a lot of pressure bring the ball up and a lot of time was being taken off the clock just getting into our sets.

Coach K defintely has the duty of bringing the ball up shared between Scheyer and Smith. Even Siingler took on that role at times during the game, but he is probably the least secure of the 3 at it. He still is our next best option with the ball. Dawkins is still a little green to deal with that pressure. At times we were using Mason as a safety valve with Jon to break the defensive pressure brining the ball up. That shows that coach K has a lot of confidence in Mason's game.

I didn't think we moved the ball around the perimeter as efficiently as in prior games and didn't get aa many open shots, although still quite a few open 3's. I think that was a function of the GT defense.

Dawkins is still adapting to having a defender in his face when he takes the 3. The level of play in the ACC and in the major NCAA ranks in high and he hasn't had the experienced dealing with it. His offense is likely to get back on track soon.

The Gottlieb comment on Scheyer not being an NBA prospect seems to fly in the face of the evidence. GT is supposed to have 3 or 4 pro prospects. Scheyer went for 25 against them with 6 assists and one turnover against them. That turnover was caused by a mauling. I would think Scheyer has a real chance if he wants to go in that direction.

[grossbus]

gumbomoop!

great post!!!

[Devilsfan]

Gottleib? High integrity Gottleib? I don't think he's the new spokesperson for Visa or Mastercharge.

[AtlDuke72]

disagree. they out hustled us plain and simple. and pushed us around on the boards.

ya the ball bounced their way a lot today, but thats no excuse

I was at the game courtside. No way you could say Duke was "outhustled". Tech has some monsters on the boards and the ball did seem to bounce Tech's way a lot. Duke missed a ton of free throws and wide open shots they usually make and lost by 4 points. Do you really think this was caused by "lack of effort"?

[AtlDuke72]

The Tech fans are really down on Hewitt for a host of reasons. Does it strike anyone else as odd that Lawal only played 23 minutes and only got 9 shots? He is by far Tech's best player and they do nothing to get him the ball. Hewitt has a senseless substitution pattern that just rotates players in willy nilly whether they seem to be playing well or not. Look for Tech to have a few more big wins because of the talent level, but they will crash and burn at the end of the year.

[FerryFor50]

I was at the game courtside. No way you could say Duke was "outhustled". Tech has some monsters on the boards and the ball did seem to bounce Tech's way a lot. Duke missed a ton of free throws and wide open shots they usually make and lost by 4 points. Do you really think this was caused by "lack of effort"?

Being outhustled doesn't mean you didn't work hard - Tech just worked harder. They had fresher legs and were at home. There's no shame in it - it happens.

Getting loose ball after loose ball is only partly luck - hustling and being in position has a lot to do with it, too.

[Hermy-own]

I am one of those who takes the more optimistic viewpoint. Basically, we had a game where 2 of the big 3 were playing below average, especially Kyle. We were playing a highly talented team, ranked #17 in the country. We had a lot of tough calls and tough bounces. And we only lost by 4 points. That says to me that we were doing a lot of things right. I only have two complaints:

Our defense seems a bit softer than it did earlier in the season. Against some of the weaker competition we were playing earlier, our height really destroyed their shooting percentages, but it isn't anymore. Hopefully we can tighten up our defense and our rebounding.

In the last 5 minutes our offense desintigrated - and our shooting wasn't really that bad. We just moving it around the perimeter until we found a semi-open 3 ball. Very weak offense. It would be nice to move it inside more - I saw some opportunities to get Mason the ball down low, but he was passed up.

[jaimedun34]

The only thing this loss exposed was the same thing everyone already knew. If one of 3S struggles to score, Duke can have a hard time winning tough games.

I pretty much agree. That's not to say that we can't get some more production from the other guys, but generally if they struggle, we aren't going to be too close. We knew that coming into the season, so it's not like we were 'exposed' or anything.

1. Mason was an absolute bear. Strong all over the floor, except those moments where he's 15-20 feet out and appears to want to dribble. Even his fouls are usually strong.

I've said this over on the scout boards, but Mason is not what I expected - in a good way! He's slower than I thought he would be, but he's thicker, stronger, and a better/more willing rebounder and defender.

[TampaDuke]

I realize we were deliberately trying to control the pace of the game, but I would have liked to see us selectively force the issue offensively on a few more possessions. To me, it seemed as if not doing so allowed GT a free pass on the full court press. I think we need to come up with something to make pressing teams think twice, or at least get a few points off of the defensive liability that a broken press usually permits to an opportunistic offense.

I did like the adjustment in the second half to have Mason as an outlet to assist with getting the ball up court. Unlike a lot of big guys, he seemed comfortable handling the ball in the open court.

[hq2]

As losses go, I don't think this was all that bad. When you're playing a ranked team on the road, you're looking at even money at best to win, and the game was close down the stretch. A few obvious points.

1. This was the first time I saw MP1 show consistent post play against quality comp. This is a big development, and should not be underestimated. This is sorely needed, and will be a huge asset in the future. Mason is getting better too, but isn't quite ready to be a post up option yet. He is best used in run-the-floor mode.

2. This business about expecting Kyle to play entirely on the perimeter is a bad idea. He needs a good mixture of shots, and more plays designed to get him to the basket. The guy is 6-8 after all, and a pretty good driver, and this side of his game should not be wasted.

3. Right now, I think we can't win big games unless at least 2 out of 3 of the Triple S's are playing well. One wasn't enough yesterday.

4. Our inside D is pretty good. This was a very tough, strong team, and we held our own down low. We'll be O.K. against the tough teams.

[mayrer]

The Ga Tech game confirmed what other games have indicated. Duke has more firepower inside than in recent years and is playing aggressive effective defense. It helps to have shotblockers near the rim. The problem is simple - the limited amount of perimeter quickness from the Duke team is a weakness. Duke is susceptible to the press, and a team playing aggressive halfcourt defense will take Duke out of its offense too. Scheyer handles and protects the ball well and occasionally gets to the basket. Nolan Smith is quick, but isn't the best ballhandler. From what we've seen to date, we can't tell much about Andre Dawkins' quickness or ballhandling.

The disadvantage in quickness can lead to rushed shots when the opposing defense is aggressive (Duke did this to Gonzaga; Ga Tech did it to Duke - and so did Villanova last year).

Kyle Singler's been one of my favorite players, but he has had a lot of trouble beating opponents off the dribble when he's playing the three spot. If he's not ill or injured, maybe he's not quick enough to be effective in that spot.

Duke will see some good wins, and it's great to see the team play so aggressively and effectively on defense. Duke will remain vulnerable against a quick team that plays aggressive perimeter defense.

[ncexnyc]

I tend to be a, "The glass is half empty", type, but after yesterday's loss I'm not sure why so many are voicing concerns.
Two of our top players were lousy and we were still in it down to the wire.

As I said earlier in the week, Tech would be a tough game for us, as they would be fired-up after loosing to Georgia. The fact that they were playing at home was something else that gave me concern.

As Jumbo and others have already said, the defense was there. Lance doesn't get near enough credit for the job he's done the past 3 games. Is it any coincidence that once he fouled out, both Favors and Lawal seemed to become more of a factor in the game?

To many 3's?, Sorry, but for the most part they were wide open shots taken within the flow of the offense.

Good teams do drop a few games during the course of a season it's all part of the game. I don't believe now is the time for soulsearching, however should we drop several games within a short span of time, then it woud be legitimate to discuss trends and faults.

[arnie]

Sorry, I didn't realize this was the first Duke game you have seen this season. I'll send you the game tape of Z and LT from the first 14 games. No worries.

Wow - nice insult directed to someone who has watched 99% of Duke basketball games in the past 40 years. If you believe Z and Lance are solid offensive basketball players (on a high caliber NCAA Division 1 level), so be it. I doubt anyone can change your mind. I'm just hoping for better play at that position and feel the Plumlees can provide it. I strongly disagree with you that Z and Thomas should get most of the minutes at the two power positions.

[_Gary]

Wow - nice insult directed to someone who has watched 99% of Duke basketball games in the past 40 years. If you believe Z and Lance are solid offensive basketball players (on a high caliber NCAA Division 1 level), so be it. I doubt anyone can change your mind. I'm just hoping for better play at that position and feel the Plumlees can provide it. I strongly disagree with you that Z and Thomas should get most of the minutes at the two power positions.

I haven't weighed in on this particular issue (and I know all of you are anxiously awaiting my thoughts - ) so here goes. At present I'm not sure the minutes issue as it concerns tandems of Z/T vs. P/P is something I'd feel compelled to say has to be heavily weighted one way or the other. I will say at this point I do think the youngsters are making headway and probably have the most upside for the remainder of the season. I expect we will continue to see more of the Miles/Mason tandem as the year moves forward. I kinda think Zoubs, God bless his heart, has reached his ceiling. Lance is still valuable on the defensive end, but overall if I was forced to choose between the two sets of big men, I'd have to go with the Plumlees getting a bit more time at this point.

Gary