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  1. #1

    RESOLVED: Krzyzewski's management of the rotation will bite us in the...

    Omnibus thread for discussion of minutes, or lack thereof.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Texas/NC

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    For any game that we lose this year a contributing factor will be that one or more players had a subpar shooting night. It will not be possible to prove that the poor shooting wasn't caused by tired legs. Those who believe will continue to believe; those who don't will continue to dispute.

    The End

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Louisville, Ky
    This thread should be chock full of useful information to the person that wins that Iron Duke auction item to coach Duke in an ACC game at Cameron while Coach K post his thoughts and suggestions on DBR.
    If being a fan were logical, we'd all be Duke fans but some of us were born to a different blue.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina
    Duke just beat a top 25 team by 20 points. It's obvious that we're not going to make the final four because Kyle didn't get to rest the last 2 minutes of this game. What was Coach K thinking?

    Phew, I have now completed one of the mandatory post subjects to be a complete DBR poster.

    got the "coach K doesn't develop the bench/rest the starters enough" subject done.

    Next up: We're too reliant on the 3
    After that: We need to recruit a super-athletic one-and-done stud.

    On my way, baby!
    Brian Zoubek on what was going through his mind walking to the free throw line with 3.6 seconds remaining in the 2010 National Championship game and Duke up by 1: "Fifty percent [of me is] thinking, This is what I've been dreaming of doing my entire life. Fifty percent I'm crapping my pants."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    Duke just beat a top 25 team by 20 points. It's obvious that we're not going to make the final four because Kyle didn't get to rest the last 2 minutes of this game. What was Coach K thinking?

    Phew, I have now completed one of the mandatory post subjects to be a complete DBR poster.

    got the "coach K doesn't develop the bench/rest the starters enough" subject done.
    1A all the way, baby, 1A.

    If you don't know what 1A is, go read the HPR. If you don't know what the HPR is, you haven't been around here very long, have you?
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    http://www.EGLEW.com


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Texas/NC
    Players Over 30 MPG

    85-86= Johnny Dawkins (33.1), Tommy Amaker (30.2)
    86-87= Tommy Amaker (35.6), Danny Ferry (33.2)
    87-88= Danny Ferry (32.5)
    88-89= Danny Ferry (33.2), Quin Snyder (30.4
    89-90= Bobby Hurley (33.4), Phil Henderson (31.5), Christian Laettner (30.0)
    90-91= Christian Laettner (30.2), Bobby Hurley (34.7)
    91-92= Bobby Hurley (33.6), Christian Laettner (32.2), Thomas Hill (30.6), Grant Hill (30.3), Brian Davis (30.9)
    92-93= Bobby Hurley (35.6), Thomas Hill (31.9), Grant Hill (31.6)
    93-94= Grant Hill (35.7), Cherokee Parks (30.5), Chris Collins (31.0), Antonio Lang (30.1)
    94-95= Cherokee Parks (35.2)
    95-96= Jeff Capel (34.9), Chris Collins (34.6), Ricky Price (31.9)
    96-97= None
    97-98= None
    98-99= William Avery (31.0), Trajan Langdon (31.0)
    99-00= Shane Battier (35.5), Chris Carrawell (35.6), Jason Williams (34.0)
    00-01= Jason Williams (31.8), Shane Battier (34.9)
    01-02= Chris Duhon (35.1), Jason Williams (3.6), Mike Dunleavy Jr. (32.4)
    02-03= Chris Duhon (36), Dahntay Jones (30.7), JJ Redick (30.7)
    03-04= Chris Duhon (35.4), JJ Redick (31.1), Luol Deng (31.1), and Daniel Ewing (30.6)
    04-05= JJ Redick (37.3), Daniel Ewing (34.5), Shelden Williams (33.6)
    05-06= JJ Redick (37.1), Shelden Williams (33.3), Greg Paulus (32.3)
    06-07= Josh McRoberts (35.3), Jon Scheyer (33.7), Greg Paulus (32.4), Demarcus Nelson (31.9)
    07-08= Demarcus Nelson (30.9)
    08-09= Jon Scheyer (32.8), Kyle Singler (32.2)
    09-10= Jon Scheyer (35), Kyle Singler (33.7), Nolan Smith (33.0)

    Those are the numbers and I leave it to you to make comparisons and extrapolate as needed for now, but I do have one thing to say:

    The difference between 35 mpg and 30 mpg in a 30 game season is 150 minutes of game time. That is literally 2.5 hours of hard basketball over the course of ~5 months. These 18-22 yr old kids practice/ lift/ exercise/ etc... for hours upon hours every day. There is NO WAY those 2.5 hours are the difference between fresh and tired legs in March. If practices are consistently long and grueling, then that might be a different story.... but lots of game time... no way. Does anybody disagree with this?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    Does anybody disagree with this?
    Is this a rhetorical question? There's a wide array of viewpoints expressed on the board.

    I do think practice has more to do with the physical fatigue than game time.

    -jk

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    The difference between 35 mpg and 30 mpg in a 30 game season is 150 minutes of game time. That is literally 2.5 hours of hard basketball over the course of ~5 months. These 18-22 yr old kids practice/ lift/ exercise/ etc... for hours upon hours every day. There is NO WAY those 2.5 hours are the difference between fresh and tired legs in March. If practices are consistently long and grueling, then that might be a different story.... but lots of game time... no way. Does anybody disagree with this?
    On the other hand, there are reasons that there aren't any coaches in the country who play their five starters 40 minutes every game.

  10. #10
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    Jan 2008
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    Texas/NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    On the other hand, there are reasons that there aren't any coaches in the country who play their five starters 40 minutes every game.
    Yes, and I think common sense says it has to do with players' performance in each specific game, not in March. I am pretty sure if you asked each coach why he doesn't play player X 40 minutes, they would answer that it is because he would be less effective in that game.

  11. #11
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    Yes, and I think common sense says it has to do with players' performance in each specific game, not in March. I am pretty sure if you asked each coach why he doesn't play player X 40 minutes, they would answer that it is because he would be less effective in that game.
    In a slightly different vein, I do know that K has kept stats on player productivity vs. minutes played in a game. One season, Ricky Price (if memory serves; I'm getting old) was good for about 28 minutes a game. After that, he started making way more mental mistakes. K managed his playing time so that he was available towards the end of the game with some of those 28 productive minutes left.

    I feel sure K still does it with all of his meaningful players. This also goes to the per-40-minute stats discussed earlier: some players have a 40 minute game in them. Some don't. One of K's jobs is to balance and maximize everyone's productive time as best he can. It's a bit more subtle than just minutes per game.

    -jk

  12. #12
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    Mar 2007
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    Cambridge, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    Yes, and I think common sense says it has to do with players' performance in each specific game, not in March. I am pretty sure if you asked each coach why he doesn't play player X 40 minutes, they would answer that it is because he would be less effective in that game.
    I agree with you. I have no worries whatsoever about long term fatigue. My concern is only about developing a more balanced team by the end of the season.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Texas/NC
    Carolina 08-09= Wayne Ellington (30.4), Ty Lawson (30.0), Tyler Hansbrough (30.3)
    Kansas 07-08= Mario Chalmers (30.0)
    Florida 06-07= Taurean Green (33.2) and Lee Humphrey (30.4)
    Florida 05-06= Taurean Green (33.4)
    Carolina 04-05= Raymond Felton (31.7)
    UConn 03-04= Ben Gordon (34.5), Taliek Brown (30.5), Emeka Okafor (32.4)
    Syracuse 02-03= Carmelo Anthony (36.4), Gerry McNamara (35.3), Hakim Warrick (32.7)
    Maryland 01-02= Juan Dixon (33.6), Steve Blake (32.0)

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    Baltimore
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    Carolina 08-09= Wayne Ellington (30.4), Ty Lawson (30.0), Tyler Hansbrough (30.3)
    Kansas 07-08= Mario Chalmers (30.0)
    Florida 06-07= Taurean Green (33.2) and Lee Humphrey (30.4)
    Florida 05-06= Taurean Green (33.4)
    Carolina 04-05= Raymond Felton (31.7)
    UConn 03-04= Ben Gordon (34.5), Taliek Brown (30.5), Emeka Okafor (32.4)
    Syracuse 02-03= Carmelo Anthony (36.4), Gerry McNamara (35.3), Hakim Warrick (32.7)
    Maryland 01-02= Juan Dixon (33.6), Steve Blake (32.0)
    Remember the difference between 35ish min and 30ish min is pretty sizable. If you have a bench rotation that can reliably soak up about 1/4 of a game for some of your stars without giving up too much ground then I would classify a team as having solid depth. If you're running at an avg of about 35ish, then I would classify you as reliant.

    Though this stat becomes difficult to read into given the varying prowess of different opponents. I'm guessing some blowouts significantly change these averages.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeHopkins View Post
    Remember the difference between 35ish min and 30ish min is pretty sizable. If you have a bench rotation that can reliably soak up about 1/4 of a game for some of your stars without giving up too much ground then I would classify a team as having solid depth. If you're running at an avg of about 35ish, then I would classify you as reliant.
    Well, Duke *doesn't* have solid depth at the guard and wing positions - the only backup Duke has there is an 18-year-old freshman. So Duke *is* reliant on Scheyer, Smith and Singler, and if something happens to one or more of them Duke will be well and truly boned. But that's a separate question from whether those three are going wear out.

  16. #16
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    Jan 2008
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    Texas/NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeHopkins View Post
    Remember the difference between 35ish min and 30ish min is pretty sizable.
    Sizable in what way? Is being more reliant on your star players to the tune of 5 extra mpg detrimental? In what significant way?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    Baltimore
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Well, Duke *doesn't* have solid depth at the guard and wing positions - the only backup Duke has there is an 18-year-old freshman. So Duke *is* reliant on Scheyer, Smith and Singler, and if something happens to one or more of them Duke will be well and truly boned. But that's a separate question from whether those three are going wear out.
    It was my take that most posters aren't concerned with whether the three S' will "wear out" by playing a lot of minutes in individual games throughout the year.... it was more that we would become overly reliant on them and then in certain situations where a solid contributing bench player would be useful or even necessary we would fall short. The argument therefore is to try and develop players like dawkins by giving him more than just a few minutes since he is almost the entirety of our guard depth. Maybe that may payoff down the road this year during the tourney?

    Just want to make clear that I was completely in agreement with how the minutes were heavy on the 3 amigos this game. Clemson is a hard team to face due to their press and you need experienced ball-handlers to rely on.

  18. #18
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    Jul 2009
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    Baltimore
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    Sizable in what way? Is being more reliant on your star players to the tune of 5 extra mpg detrimental? In what significant way?
    This is certainly just my opinion. I have no data to support any of it, but I believe that if you have a deep bench that can keep your top players a little more fresh by giving them 3-5 min more bench rest then you are giving yourself a more peak performance overall as a team and better flexibility in case of foul trouble for thos few games a year when you have foul trouble.

    Luckily, neither Kyle, Nolan, or Jon tend to get into foul trouble and are less likely to have that problem since they by position play on the perimeter.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Inman, SC & Melbourne Beach, FL
    OK, if I agree that Coach K has no concept of the correct management of playing time, particularly at the end of games, then we have to start looking to dump him and get a different coach. Any of the Duke assistants would be a waste, since they would just be Coach K writ small. We need new blood -- say, how about the Herricks, are they still around? Of course the team would need refresher courses on how many point you get for making a three point basket. Tim Floyd is clearly looking for work, and John Calipari will be looking once more in a few years.
    Sounds as if there are plenty of opportunities out there for us to latch on to a real scumbag. At that point, the quailing about minutes played would cease immediately, since everybody would be busy looking over their shoulders for the NCAA gestapo to swoop down upon the Duke campus and make allegations which would make the Lax mess seem tame.
    Aren't we happy that we have none of those problems, and probably won't have any of them, and just have to complain about some players getting too much playing time?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    BlueintheFace - here are the numbers I am concerned about. Here are the scoring averages for the top five players on the recent national champions, our three national champions, and our current team:

    Duke 2010: 19, 18, 16, 9, 7
    UNC 2009: 21, 17, 16, 13, 11
    Kansas 2008: 13, 13, 13, 11, 10
    Florida 2007: 13, 13, 13, 12, 11
    Florida 2006: 14, 13, 13, 11, 11
    UNC 2005: 18, 16, 13, 13, 11
    UConn 2004: 19, 18, 11, 9, 9
    Syracuse 2003: 23, 15, 13, 11, 9
    Duke 2001: 22, 20, 13, 13, 12
    Duke 1992: 22, 15, 14, 13, 11
    Duke 1991: 20, 12, 12, 11, 11

    We all remember that Coach K said one of our problems last year was that it felt like we were playing three on five. In my opinion he was dead-on and it's something we need to work at getting better at this season. And we are working at it. But I say we can do better.

    I'm not panicking and asking for a massive lineup change or for Ryan Kelly to get some huge jump in playing time. But, yes, I really do think that we'll be a better team in the long run if we play our fourth leading scorer more than five minutes and start using Mason more as he continues to work his way back from his injury throughout January. I'm obviously very happy with a 20 point victory over a ranked team.

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