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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Walnut Creek, California

    Cycling Drug Tests: Does Floyd Landis have a point?

    As with the Duke lacrosse scandal, the evidence in Floyd Landis's drug testing is starting to unravel. This CJR article looks at the issue from a journalistic ethics point of view: Did the journalists reach their condemnation too soon? Remember that not even landis knew what the WADA evidence was or what factors go into concluding that the sample tested positive.

    http://www.cjr.org/issues/2007/3/Hughes.asp

    The article then discusses the so-called Wiki means of getting ideas from professionals in the field just to be able to begin a defense of Landis's rejected claim of innocence. Neither Landis nor his attorney knew where to look until the Wiki contributors stepped up.

    Kind of fascinating. There seems to be a hearing scheduled this month, though I don't think the article gave a date.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Walnut Creek, California

    Update

    Landis's hearing began yesterday.

    Here is a report form the LA Times:

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...adlines-sports

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim3k View Post
    Landis's hearing began yesterday.

    Here is a report form the LA Times:

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...adlines-sports
    You can see the Power Point presentation that the Landis team presented at the hearing:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/2007/may07/opening.ppt

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles

    I don't think so

    I've followed the Tour de France for years. And truly I can't even imagine that Landis took drugs. I hope that he is exonerated completely. This is another witch hunt. Floyd L is not guilty -- but all of this will still taint his accomplishment.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of sports teams that disappoint in the playoffs
    For the uneducated-- does the final decision come from the USADA or is it some international cycling body?

    Call me a cynic if you want, but I think the odds of an American who won the Tour de France getting a fair shake from an international body are pretty slim. Most of the world hates the US right now and international cycling really hates American cyclists.

    -Jason "I have though Floyd was innocent all along" Evans

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    For the uneducated-- does the final decision come from the USADA or is it some international cycling body?

    Call me a cynic if you want, but I think the odds of an American who won the Tour de France getting a fair shake from an international body are pretty slim. Most of the world hates the US right now and international cycling really hates American cyclists.

    -Jason "I have though Floyd was innocent all along" Evans
    This hearing is like a district court. Either party can still appeal to the CAS (Court of Arbitration Sportif, or something like that). They're the international body. There may also be additional avenues available after that, probably restricted to the US civil courts.

  7. #7
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    Walnut Creek, California

    Wednesday LA Times


  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim3k View Post
    Thanks. Jim, do you think that the LA Times is trying to cover the hearing from the Lab's standpoint? It definitely seems that Cyclingnews is covering the Landis presentation. If so, then I'll also start reading the LA Time coverage to get a more complete picture.
    Last edited by hughgs; 05-16-2007 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Punctuation

  9. #9
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    Feb 2007
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    Walnut Creek, California
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    Thanks. Jim, do you think that the LA Times is trying to cover the hearing from the Lab's standpoint? It definitely seems that Cyclingnews is covering the Landis presentation. If so, then I'll also start reading the LA Time coverage to get a more complete picture.
    I dunno, George. This LAT article seems to be trying to be factual. All it had to report from yesterday was the tech's direct testimony. Cross-examination was to be today. I chose the LAT because it was local to the hearing.

    I haven't looked to CyclingNews for any info. Maybe I should. Why don't you track Cycling News and I'll try to keep up with the LAT? Sound like a plan?

    Maybe we should get Evans to put CNN on the case.

  10. #10
    I've been reading velonews for all things cycling related for years now. They're an excellent site and have quite a few articles up.

    EDIT - BRILLIANT! He's been wearing a yellow tie for the hearing!
    Last edited by Cavlaw; 05-16-2007 at 06:34 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim3k View Post
    I dunno, George. This LAT article seems to be trying to be factual. All it had to report from yesterday was the tech's direct testimony. Cross-examination was to be today. I chose the LAT because it was local to the hearing.

    I haven't looked to CyclingNews for any info. Maybe I should. Why don't you track Cycling News and I'll try to keep up with the LAT? Sound like a plan?

    Maybe we should get Evans to put CNN on the case.
    I had asked the question before reading the article. That being said I think that following the LA Times articles seem to be the best way to go in terms of the news/facts about the case. Constantly reading Cyclingnews makes me forget what a journalist from a paper like the LA Times can do with a story.

    I'll start reading the LA Times coverage and post Cyclingnews articles or links that offer anything new (like the Landis presentation). Thanks.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post

    Call me a cynic if you want, but I think the odds of an American who won the Tour de France getting a fair shake from an international body are pretty slim. Most of the world hates the US right now and international cycling really hates American cyclists.

    -Jason "I have though Floyd was innocent all along" Evans
    Jason, I completely agree with you on this. The fact that the powers that be were basically going to let him off with a hand slap if he would implicate Lance pretty much slaughters the credibility of these charges.

    By the way, I didn't realize you lived in Atlanta? I do to, but only for the next 9 days

  13. #13
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    Feb 2007
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    Walnut Creek, California

    Lab analyst admits to gaps in Landis tests

    LAT headline above

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...,1,78179.story

    Looks like Landis's lawyers are making some progress.

    Wouldn't it be ironic if the lab's machine has been defective all along? This LAT story has the tech testifying that she has frequently had to get the machine's factory rep out to recalibrate it.

    The incorrect or unacceptable results being produced by the machine tended to involve calibrations or verification runs, rather than readings on Landis' samples. But the defense may be intending to argue that the inadequacy of the machine casts doubt on Landis' results.

    Mongongu's testimony suggested that the performance of the machine had been erratic for years; under questioning by Howard Jacobs, another lawyer for Landis, she said that she had had to summon a manufacturer's technician roughly 10 times since September 2003 to repair the hardware.

  14. #14
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    Feb 2007
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    Durham at heart
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim3k View Post
    LAT headline above

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...,1,78179.story

    Looks like Landis's lawyers are making some progress.

    Wouldn't it be ironic if the lab's machine has been defective all along? This LAT story has the tech testifying that she has frequently had to get the machine's factory rep out to recalibrate it.
    You all know that I love me some cycling. The admission of Basso has made me sick to my stomach for weeks now, and I wonder if my thoughts on Floyd are colored by my hope that there is still some hope for the sport.

    However, from the standpoint of a scientist, there is no excuse for the gaps that are decribed in that article. YOU WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN! EVERYTHING. For me, someone who makes thier livelihood at a lab bench, there is no doubt in my mind that, at best, these results are flawed, and, at worst, the gaps in time are from tampering with Landis' samples.

    Plain and simple. The lab appears to have totally screwed up and/or falsified results.
    WWJDD?

  15. #15

    B sample

    It seems to me that in such a huge case, following up on the "B" sample on the leader of the Tour would not it make much more sense to send it to another lab? This could solve all sorts of problems and if the second lab gave the same result it would be much more powerful. In fact perhaps the top leaders should have the "B" samples sent directly to a second lab without delay or additional handling.

  16. #16
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    Walnut Creek, California

    Punch and counterpunch

    One of the lab techs testified she knew the sample was Landis's.

    http://www.lompocrecord.com/articles.../d8p6bqd01.txt

    So much for the lab's rule about confidentiality and blind testing.

    However, Greg LeMond has testified that Landis has admitted he doped up. Worse, he has accused Landis's uncle of witness tampering, threatening to reveal that LeMond had told Landis about being molested as a child, and that the way to break from that was to admit the truth (i.e., that Landis had doped up. Apparently the uncle intended to coerce LeMond so he would not testify.

    The article does not quote LeMond's testimony constituting the admission. In fact, what this article recites is more ambiguous. ("What good would it do?") There may be testimony the article did not include, so the issue remains murky from here.

    http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12271.0.html
    Last edited by Jim3k; 05-17-2007 at 06:51 PM. Reason: clarity

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim3k View Post
    One of the lab techs testified she knew the sample was Landis's.

    http://www.lompocrecord.com/articles.../d8p6bqd01.txt

    So much for the lab's rule about confidentiality and blind testing.

    However, Greg LeMond has testified that Landis has admitted he doped up. Worse, he has accused Landis's uncle of witness tampering, threatening to reveal that LeMond had told Landis about being molested as a child, and that the way to break from that was to admit the truth (i.e., that Landis had doped up. Apparently the uncle intended to coerce LeMond so he would not testify.

    The article does not quote LeMond's testimony constituting the admission. In fact, what this article recites is more ambiguous. ("What good would it do?") There may be testimony the article did not include, so the issue remains murky from here.

    http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12271.0.html
    The Cyclingnews reports actually have some of the transcript and a report of the LeMond bomb:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...earing_day3_07

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...ay07/may18news

  18. #18
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    Walnut Creek, California

    FRiday's LAT on the Thursday bombs

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...1,536933.story

    Looks like that 'confession' LeMond was talking about isn't much of anything at all. It might even get stricken if LeMond won't submit to cross-examination.

    LeMond seems like an odd witness to have been called in the first place. How does he add to the USADA's case if all he can cite is something ambiguous? He doesn't really know anything and he doesn't come across as much beyond a busybody who is sure he knows what happened, but has no real knowledge. Kind of a father-confessor wannabe. But why?

    Besides, Landis and LeMond don't really know each other. That being so, why would Landis, if guilty, admit anything to LeMond...'implicitly' or otherwise? It doesn't seem likely to me. If LeMond was asking him to confess, regardless of actual guilt, at least one response would be the one Landis supposedly gave: "What good would it do?" That can easily be taken as not any sort of confession, but an 'Isn't that just pointless?' kind of answer. Neither a confession nor a denial, just an observation that LeMond's idea had no merit.

    And, the 'threat' against LeMond looks like a severely misguided manager (not uncle) who got himself fired over it. Part of a dishonest culture? Excessive loyalty? Or just stupid? Well, maybe all three...
    Last edited by Jim3k; 05-18-2007 at 03:58 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    The Cyclingnews reports actually have some of the transcript and a report of the LeMond bomb:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...earing_day3_07

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...ay07/may18news
    two lemond (wow, he's looking old!) questions:

    1) How would he know that Landis is doping? It seems like he's assuming Landis is guilty, and just relating a story about encouraging him to come clean about it.

    2) Didn't he do essentially the same to Armstrong?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lexington, KY

    June 2006, Lemond accuses Armstrong

    Quote Originally Posted by gus View Post
    two lemond (wow, he's looking old!) questions:


    2) Didn't he do essentially the same to Armstrong?
    Gus: That was my first reaction. Here's a link:
    http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/10099.0.html

    Personally, I believe Lemond would not survive cross-examination.
    Cheers,
    Lavabe

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