Czyz Transferring

[El_Diablo]

The problem I suggest would he negative fallout from what is perceived as a frequent stream of transfers. As I said before (in at least one and maybe two posts), this infers that neither the team experience nor the university offer enough to players to overcome other problems (which we presume is lack of playing time, but could be other factors). This is undesirable, and because our basketball team has such a high profile, can have implications outside of the basketball program. As I suggested before, Kevin White can serve in his role as the leader of the athletic department and university to assess the concerns in this broader context and, help in the process of shining light on how to manage things better. It's fine if other's think I am wrong, but would be more interesting if they said why.

Okay, I think you're wrong.

Reason 1: I don't think the AD "inserting himself" by "assessing the concerns in a broader context" will necessarily do anything for a player who just wants more minutes.

Reason 2: I think it would be counterproductive for an AD to counter the coach's approach if we think the coach is closer to the player and actually understands the situation better.

Reason 3: I think Coach K has done just fine running the basketball program for the past 30 years without having his bosses insert themselves into the process.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ozzie, don't take this personally, but unless I am missing something, it doesn't sound like you've read any of my posts. I have offered no opinion as to whether Olek is leaving, whether any such departure is good or bad for the team, or good or bad for Olek. My specific opinion is that number of transfers the program has experienced in general is undesirable for program (which is a debatable point, if any one cares to debate it), and that the frequency of departures could have implications outside of the program. I get your point that more playing time someplace else can be a better path to the NBA for a bench dweller, but in Olek's case, don't agree.

Please don't take this personally, sixth (and 6th) man, but you guys crack me up. You know not of what you post.

This is the very reason I deleted my post. I am tired of folks like yourself with your holier than thou attitude. You are correct. Olek played 2 minutes so the post I deleted where I said he din't play was indeed wrong. My point was he got no meaningful minutes. They are ripping Gardner Webb apart and Scheyer, Singler and company are still in the game late. I was merely trying to point out that the bench should get a little more PT in games like this. They work hard to be student athletes at Duke and practice hard. They should at least get a little PT in the games where they can. (2 minutes isn't really playing in my opinion). I don't think any of the guys that usually never play will develop. I'm just saying throw them a bone in games like this.

Ozzie, you may not agree with me, but no reason to disrespect me or sixth man for our opinions.

The problem I suggest would he negative fallout from what is perceived as a frequent stream of transfers. As I said before (in at least one and maybe two posts), this infers that neither the team experience nor the university offer enough to players to overcome other problems (which we presume is lack of playing time, but could be other factors). This is undesirable, and because our basketball team has such a high profile, can have implications outside of the basketball program. As I suggested before, Kevin White can serve in his role as the leader of the athletic department and university to assess the concerns in this broader context and, help in the process of shining light on how to manage things better. It's fine if other's think I am wrong, but would be more interesting if they said why.

I did read your posts, both sixth and 6th, and think you're both wrong. If lower level players want to transfer, so be it. K gets blasted here when he doesn't go after "back up" players for depth, and when he does, he gets blasted for getting them and then when they get disappointed with their playing time and leave for greener pastures, he gets blasted again. Olek got one start this season - the second exhibition game I think? Probably the only one he'd ever get, barring injury to other players. Boateng? Boykin? Again, nice raw talents who we've never missed, and would never have gotten significant playing time. E-Will left for other (personal) reasons.

The Kevin White reference is just plain ridiculous, as has been stated by others above.

[Sixthman]

Okay, I think you're wrong.

Reason 1: I don't think the AD "inserting himself" by "assessing the concerns in a broader context" will necessarily do anything for a player who just wants more minutes.

Reason 2: I think it would be counterproductive for an AD to counter the coach's approach if we think the coach is closer to the player and actually understands the situation better.

Reason 3: I think Coach K has done just fine running the basketball program for the past 30 years without having his bosses insert themselves into the process.

And I agree with all three of your points and am not advocating a position which would implicate any of them. Your points are about the player and this specific decision; my points are about the perceived trend of regular transfers and the need for someone with a perspective other than managing the day to operations of the basketball team to address the problem of those perceptions, which I have suggested have implications beyond the basketball team.

[Jumbo]

The problem I suggest would he negative fallout from what is perceived as a frequent stream of transfers. As I said before (in at least one and maybe two posts), this infers that neither the team experience nor the university offer enough to players to overcome other problems (which we presume is lack of playing time, but could be other factors). This is undesirable, and because our basketball team has such a high profile, can have implications outside of the basketball program. As I suggested before, Kevin White can serve in his role as the leader of the athletic department and university to assess the concerns in this broader context and, help in the process of shining light on how to manage things better. It's fine if other's think I am wrong, but would be more interesting if they said why.

I think you are making the mistake of overestimating how different the "Duke experience" is for a basketball player than vs. one at another school. Fact is, these guys all end up where they are because they are great basketball players. In terms of time spent, it's their top college priority, particularly when you add the summer into the equation. For almost any basketball player, if you're not getting to play basketball (in games) for a long period of time, you're going to look for a place where you can enjoy the fruits of your labor and perhaps extend your career, regardless of how much you enjoy some of the other aspects of your particular school. That's just how it works.

I showed the stats from other elite basketball programs and it proves that Duke is hardly suffering from a higher transfer rate. So, if you're disappointed that things aren't different at Duke, I'm sorry, but your expectations are just too high. And the fact is that you DID call for Kevin White to do something about this perceived problem. Conceivable, he and K really only have the following options to prevent transfers: 1) Play everyone regularly or 2) recruit fewer players. Otherwise, if you have kids who are talented enough to get regular playing time somewhere, but not at Duke, after a couple of seasons of frustration, it's natural to look into other options.

Perhaps you could take a step back, realize that your initial statement went way too far, and then everyone can move on.

[MADevil30]

And I agree with all three of your points and am not advocating a position which would implicate any of them. Your points are about the player and this specific decision; my points are about the perceived trend of regular transfers and the need for someone with a perspective other than managing the day to operations of the basketball team to address the problem of those perceptions, which I have suggested have implications beyond the basketball team.

I think part of the problem here, speaking for myself, is that while you have made it clear that you think the transfers are indicative of a larger "problem," I have no idea what the problem that you are talking about is. Perhaps if you explained that better, we could all see eye to eye.

[Kedsy]

The problem I suggest would he negative fallout from what is perceived as a frequent stream of transfers.

Perceived by whom? Outside the Duke community (and the schools to which these guys have transferred), do you think anybody really noticed any of the transfers besides Elliot? I don't. I think the "perception" is only ours, and thus I don't think there will be any negative fallout.

[Wildcat]

factors). This is undesirable, and because our basketball team has such a high profile, can have implications outside of the basketball program. As I suggested before, Kevin White can serve in his role as the leader of the athletic department and university to assess the concerns in this broader context and, help in the process of shining light on how to manage things better. It's fine if other's think I am wrong, but would be more interesting if they said why.[/QUOTE]

We are a "high-profile" program who in recent years have taken some lumps from: recruiting misses to program in decline, to being deemed alarmingly unathletic to transfers, and other myths about playing at Duke. It should concern us. Honestly, if Olek didn't have talent: trust me, you or I wouldn't be up past 11:00 posting about it.

I think it is certainly appropriate for the AD to question, probe, investigate, research, affirm, support or do whatever he deems necessary to protect and preserve the rich tradition of any Duke sports teams. To insinuate that K is above guidance/dialogue and counsel is myopic and flat out dictatorial. We should care how our school is being portrayed in the media. I don't think the sky is falling, but it would be nice to hear some good news surrounding the program for a change.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I'm going to bed. i have a long drive tomorrow. See y'all at MSG on Saturday.

[Sixthman]

Your point that there is more to Duke and Duke basketball than playing time is valid, but you have to realize how much basketball consumes these guys lives. I can't imagine what it would be like to watch your last chance to play pass you by because you sat on the bench. This is not a problem with Duke, certainly not Coach K; it is a player wanting to make the most of his last chance.

It is possible to have a problem that is not the product of a failure by management, or in this case, coaches. It is possible for these transfers to be a problem, even were every transfer to involve players who were of little impact or potential for impact at Duke, and even where every player choosing to transfer was making a reasonable decision with the blessings of the coaches (I do not believe this to be the case). Perhaps it makes it harder to recruit, perhaps it fuels false claims by competing coaches that Coach K is a "Bobby Knight" figure who runs off players, perhaps it creates the impression that players do not assimilate with the larger university community, perhaps it makes it easier for the Carolina guy in the office next to you and me to run down Duke and momentarily suck the life out of thousands of Duke fans just like us. At what cost to humanity I ask you? At what cost?

[Kedsy]

I don't think the sky is falling, but it would be nice to hear some good news surrounding the program for a change.

There's plenty of good news surrounding Duke basketball. I'm not saying it's you, but some people only have ears for the negative stuff. And then they overreact.

[Hermy-own]

I can think of two problems with a large number of transfer students, perceived or real:
Firstly, it does tarnish the reputation of Duke's athletic department and basketball team. I can imagine outsiders seizing on the transfers as proof that Duke athletics is not a good place to be, for whatever reason. If Duke truly does have more transfers than other schools, that is bad because it implies that people aren't having fun in our program. Winning more in March may actually help with this as well - I bet it's hard to be a program that wins so many games, has such high expectations, garners so much hatred, and then underperforms in March. That is a lot of pressure.

Secondly, it damages recruitment. Recruits may look at the transfers as proof that the Duke coaches exaggerate chances for playing time. They will also infer that playing for Duke is not fun.

I know that Duke basketball is a great program, and while I am disappointed with every transfer, I agree that they don't hurt us much. But the points above are enough reason that everyone should care when a recruit leaves. Plus, I will miss Poland Springs, he was a crowd favorite (you got Czyzed on).

[JaMarcus Russell]

It is possible for these transfers to be a problem, even were every transfer to involve players who were of little impact or potential for impact at Duke, and even where every player choosing to transfer was making a reasonable decision with the blessings of the coaches (I do not believe this to be the case).

Looking at every single transfer this decade, which ones do you think were unreasonable or made without the blessing of the coaches?

[Kedsy]

If Duke truly does have more transfers than other schools, that is bad because it implies that people aren't having fun in our program.

Have you read Jumbo's post on this subject (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...8&postcount=45)? Duke truly doesn't have more transfers than other major programs.

[xblade]

We are a "high-profile" program who in recent years have taken some lumps from: recruiting misses to program in decline, to being deemed alarmingly unathletic to transfers, and other myths about playing at Duke. It should concern us.

Why should something we have zero control over concern us? As you have pointed out, these are myths about Duke. Who do you suppose creates and spreads these myths? People we have zero control over, that's who.

Be concerned with it if you want, but there's nothing you can do about it. These creators of myth are going to say and do whatever it takes to make Duke look bad, whether Olek transfers or not. You think those who create these myths would say something nice about Duke if these guys hadn't transferred, lol? Uh, no, they would just make up something else to whisper in a recruit's ear to get him to choose their school.

By the way, didn't Calipari just run off half the Kentucky team? Didn't seem to hurt his recruiting very much. I don't think recruits are quite as naive as some of you here seem to think they are. They know how the game is played.

[BlueintheFace]

I tried to update Jumbo's post on transfers as best as I could tonight. I might have missed a player here and there or made a mistake. If you spot something feel free to let me know.

Duke
Transfers: 6 (Michael Thompson, Eric Boateng, Jamal Boykin, Taylor King, Elliot Williams, Olek Czyz)
Non-Arrivals: 2 (Shaun Livingston, Kris Humphries)

North Carolina
Transfers: 4 (Adam Boone, Brian Morrison, Neil Fingleton, Alex Stepheson)
Non-Arrivals: 2 (J.R. Smith, JamesOn Curry)

UCLA
Transfers: 6 (Nican Robinson, Andre Patterson, Ryan Walcott, Ryan Wright, Chase Stanback, Drew Gordon)
Non-Arrivals: 0

Kansas
Transfers: 9 (David Padgett, Nick Bahe, Alex Galindo, J.R. Giddens, Micah Downs, C.J. Giles, Omar Wilkes, Quintrell Thomas)
Non-Arrivals: 0

Kentucky
Transfers: 11 (Jason Parker, Rashaad Carruth, Marvin Stone, Bernard Cote, Shagari Alleyne, Rekalin Sims, Adam Williams, Alex Legion, Derrick Jasper, Mark Coury, AJ Stewart)
Non-Arrivals: 0

UConn
Transfers: 9 (Scott Hazelton, Marcus White, Antonio Kellogg, Ben Eaves, Rob Garrison, Marcus Johnson, Doug Wiggins, Curtis Kelly, Scottie Harralson)
Non-Arrivals: 1 (Andrew Bynum)

Syracuse
Transfers: 10 (DeShaun Williams, James Thues, Billy Edelin*, Louie McCroskey, Mike Jones, Josh Wright, Sean Williams, Mark Konecny, Xzavier Gaines, Tony Bland)
Non-Arrivals: 0

Texas
Transfers: 3 (Dion Dowell, Mike Williams, Edgar Moreno)
Non-Arrivals: 1 (C.J. Miles)

Florida
Transfers: 11 (JJames White, Orien Greene, Mario Boggan, Chris Capko, Mohamed Abukar, Ryan Appleby, David Huertas, Brandon Powell, Jonathan Mitchell, Jai Lucas, Alex Tyus
Non-Arrivals: 0

Arizona
Transfers 9 (Will Bynum, Dennis Latimore, Tyler Tiederman, Beau Muhlbach, Jesus Verdejo, J.P. Prince, Laval Lucas-Perry, Zane Johnson, Jeff Whithey)
Non-Arrivals: 1 (Ndudi Ebi, Brandon Jennings)

Michigan State
Transfers 3 (Brandon Cotton, Justin Ockerman, Maurice Joseph)
Non-Arrivals 0

[SoCalDukeFan]

I would rather that he stays, and maybe the rumors are false.

But if a player wants to go to college and play basketball and he is not going to play much for Duke, then he can transfer.

For most of us the idea of going to Duke and being on the team would be dream come true. Kind of hard to imagine giving it up.

Will be interesting to see where he goes.

What would concern me is something like Drew Gordon who was starting at UCLA and is transferring.

SoCal

[SCMatt33]

How do the deadlines for transferring work? I know that players who were suspended or sitting out the first semester are playing now. I know that the Gardner-Webb game came around the transition between first and second semester as far as the NCAA is concerned.

On another note, if it is true, i think that it is a good move for Olek. I watched the couple minutes he got this week and thought that he looked lost on defense and couldn't get a feel for the game on offense and actually wondered if it was too late for him to transfer. I really see his PT ceiling here as 5-10 first half minutes a game, even if he improves steadily through his senior year.

[juise]

As others have said, it seems wise to refrain from extensive comment about Olek (especially pertaining to his value) until we have confirmation from a better source. Right now, he's still part of the family and should be spoken of in an encouraging manner, imo.

[stickdog]

What I see is that Coach K is, deservedly, a Coaching and Duke Icon. However, everyone (from the President to my 3rd grader) needs to work within a framework of accountability of some sort, something that Coach K, with his military background, can surely appreciate. Some things, a person with the accomplishments of Coach K has earned a pass on. No one need hold him accountable for wins and losses, on-court strategy, or allocation of playing time. In other areas, there are larger issues, and I am concerned that program transfers is such an area. If accountability is appropriate, Kevin White, Coach K's boss, is the person to do this (and certainly not me, or anyone else on this board). Indeed, if Kevin White is not in a position to hold Coach K accountable on appropriate issues, he is the wrong man for his job. I believe program transfers are such an issue because they have the potential to tarnish the University and other athletic programs. Kevin White would insert himself because doing so is part of his job. Duke does and should hold itself to its own unique and high standards. The possibility that other programs experience similar incidence of transfers is not an comfortable excuse. A regular pattern of transfers infers that players do not value the larger Duke experience, something Coach K has always emphasized, or the Duke basketball family.

LOL. K isn't chasing these players off. These players are constantly being recruited by other programs. And they are constantly being advised by adults (often adult relations) that they would be better off playing somewhere else.

Duke basketball has a culture of smart play on defense. It is unacceptable for a Duke player to be lost on defense. This has been the case at Duke since Coach K arrived. Did you happen to notice Czyz's defensive effort in the GW game?

IMHO, Czyz has improved a ton over the last year. He was completely lost on defense last season and much less lost on defense this season. I could easily see him earning significant minutes at Duke next season and his senior year, so I am very sorry to see him go.

But if he wants to go somewhere where he will be guaranteed big minutes as soon as he is again eligible, how can you begrudge him that? And how can you begrudge Duke's basketball program in any way if its current 10th best player simply wants to be a bigger fish is a smaller pond?

[stickdog]

I think it is certainly appropriate for the AD to question, probe, investigate, research, affirm, support or do whatever he deems necessary to protect and preserve the rich tradition of any Duke sports teams. To insinuate that K is above guidance/dialogue and counsel is myopic and flat out dictatorial. We should care how our school is being portrayed in the media. I don't think the sky is falling, but it would be nice to hear some good news surrounding the program for a change.

Will someone in security please eject this rowdy Presbyterian fan?