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Thread: Zīs case

  1. #61
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    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    Are these really the stats that matter most? I kind of appreciate his fantastic +/- and rebounding numbers and feel they matter more. I would rather have a player with a great +/- and lots of fouls than a poor +/- with few fouls.
    Yes, but the original post was suggesting that Zoubek is playing in a way that deserves more minutes. The response is the explanation that, while he's played really well in the minutes he's had, his foul totals are a big reason why he's not getting more minutes.

    I think it's completely fair to discuss ALL the aspects of Zoubek's game (good and not so good). Simply citing his wonderful per-minute stats and arguing for more playing time ignores the fact that this season his foul trouble is the reason he doesn't get more time.

    If Zoubek keeps playing well AND can cut down on the fouls, he'd likely warrant more minutes. But as long as he's committing three fouls per 15 minutes, we're going to have to settle for seeing him in small doses. Hopefully he can cut down on the fouls and maintain the excellent production that he's seen early this year.

  2. #62
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    Jan 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia

    Mea culpa

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Yes, but the original post was suggesting that Zoubek is playing in a way that deserves more minutes. The response is the explanation that, while he's played really well in the minutes he's had, his foul totals are a big reason why he's not getting more minutes.

    I think it's completely fair to discuss ALL the aspects of Zoubek's game (good and not so good). Simply citing his wonderful per-minute stats and arguing for more playing time ignores the fact that this season his foul trouble is the reason he doesn't get more time.

    If Zoubek keeps playing well AND can cut down on the fouls, he'd likely warrant more minutes. But as long as he's committing three fouls per 15 minutes, we're going to have to settle for seeing him in small doses. Hopefully he can cut down on the fouls and maintain the excellent production that he's seen early this year.
    Yes, I looked back at the post I responded to and saw that's what was being discussed and I responded in an off-topic way, defending big Z. I don't expect Z to get much more than the 15 minutes per game he is averaging now, not because of him not being able to match up or foul trouble, but just because we will have so many options when Mason comes back. I could see him getting a few more minutes until MP2 is back, provided he can stay out of foul trouble.

  3. #63
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    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Smile Kedsy and uh_oh are good guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I wasn't advocating anything and I acknowledged that it would be hard to give him more minutes given his foul rate. Really, with all the frontcourt depth we have, if I were coaching I'm not sure if I'd give him more minutes or not. Instead, I was reacting to the quote below, which (whether or not uh_oh is your "man") in my opinion is quite harsh and not particularly reasonable at all.
    Here's what uh_oh had to say on another thread:

    As for the Greek night: several hundred people were let in regardless of affiliation, followed by the registered Greeks, followed by the rest of people. As an independent, I don't feel screwed. I just got there early to ensure I beat the frat rush.
    Pure poetry -- he's my man.



    From Kedsy:

    Frankly, sagegrouse I find several of your observations harsh as well. When I watch Z he moves around a lot; in fact, sometimes when he lets himself get pulled out to the perimeter I kind of wish he'd stay home a bit more. But to say he's "rooted to one position on the court" or to suggest he lacks basketball skills is simply mean as well as inaccurate.
    I didn't refer to your comments as "harsh," but rather uh_oh's comments as "not harsh."

    K likes players who can move really well, as evidenced by his fascination with a Chris Bosh lineup at the Olympics. Zoubs seem pretty unsuited to that kind of game. Although my imagery in using "rooted to one position" may hearken to a player that stays planted under the basket, I didn't say or mean that.

    Although we have had a heated discussion on this thread, I sense that most of us are in "violent agreement:" (a) Zoubs is effective playing 15 mins. per game. (b) His foul tendencies will prevent him from being a 30-minute player. (c) We would all like to see him be a smoother more coordinated player with a couple of good offensive moves, but it hasn't happened yet.

    i leapt (unnecessarily, as it turns out) to uh_oh's defense because he is a brainy undergraduate, and you are a professional writer closing in on age 50. We should both be thankful we have some great basketball fans on campus. And let's have some fun on this site.

    sagegrouse

  4. #64
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    Feb 2007
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    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Kedsy and uh_oh are good guys...

    i leapt (unnecessarily, as it turns out) to uh_oh's defense because he is a brainy undergraduate, and you are a professional writer closing in on age 50. ...sagegrouse
    I'll vouch for Kedsy, he is closing in on age 50







    and a good guy.


    Z's contributions will depend on match-ups. It is fair to say he is our strongest center, and thus better able to keep bigger centers from getting good position in the post. There are many large centers in the ACC where this will be valuable and earn Z extra minutes.

  5. #65

    Playin' short

    Z - aside from frequently looking like a zombie - still plays short. I might be a girl, but even I know if you bring the ball down under the basket some guy 6' is going to take it out of your 7' hands and do something mean with it. I like Z and wish he were all he could be. Maybe he should try meditation. As in oohhhm instead of OMG here we go again.

  6. #66
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.

    Last Night (ASU)

    What does Zoubs need to do to get a break from the refs? I only saw the second half, but 2 of the 3 foul calls against him were debatable, at best. On his third foul, the ASU point guard drove the lane, realized he had nowhere to go, jumped into Zoubek, and somehow it's a foul on Zoubek. On the 5th, sure seemed like a cheap call. Not a lot of contact.

  7. #67
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    Sep 2009
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    boston, ma
    does anyone else think last night's game against ASU should put Zoubs' case for more minutes to rest?

    It wasn't like ASU had a great frontcourt either. It will be a bad sign for us if Z and Lance are playing more minutes than the Plumlees when Mason comes back.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by duke09hms View Post
    does anyone else think last night's game against ASU should put Zoubs' case for more minutes to rest?

    It wasn't like ASU had a great frontcourt either. It will be a bad sign for us if Z and Lance are playing more minutes than the Plumlees when Mason comes back.
    I was at the game last night and though I admit he started slowly in his first couple of minutes, overall I think he played well.

    His defense looked pretty good to me and he had 5 pts and 7 rebs in 17 minutes, so once again his per minute numbers were very solid. True, he fouled out in those 17 minutes, but as someone else noted a couple of those fouls looked pretty bogus.

    So I don't think last night's game should change the conversation in any way, much less put anything "to rest."

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    I'll vouch for Kedsy, he is closing in on age 50
    Thanks, BD, really appreciate that.

  10. #70

    Ummm

    If anything a thread should be created for Olek's Case.

    Nolan was getting killed on ball screens during the ASU game and Zubek's "help" then made it look even worse. Zoubs has his flashes of, "Thank God," or "finally!" Do not get me wrong I love Zoubs but I also loved Casey Sanders.....

    Olek could have matched up just as well against Boetang, and could have reached in just as well as Miles was...

  11. #71
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    Mar 2007
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    Bethesda, MD
    I agree with a few things that have been stated and I will just list them one by one:

    1. Zoubek is not a mobile guy that can guard people on the perimeter and really only seems to make things worse when he hedges screens and doesn't realize that Nolan or Jon has already gotten over/under/around the screen and he should retreat to the basket.

    - (Stephen A. voice): Howeva, doesn't some of this fall into the lap of the coaching staff? I mean, when a guy is this deficient in an area, why do you keep putting him in a position to fail. He is 7 feet tall, he doesn't have to body the man at the three point line. If someone wants to shoot a fade away three over his outstretched hand, let them.

    2. He fouls a lot, but he also gets some terrible calls against him. I think this is largely a product of his lumbering appearance of the court. Refs just assume he is going to foul. That said, if he just gave his man about 6" of space on the block, he wouldn't be in the position to be beaten so easily and get these cheap fouls. Again, he is 7 feet tall. Even on the post, give your man a half an arms length so he can't spin past you and use your length to make him shoot over the top. I didn't see a guy on the court shoot a turn around jumper or hook from the post last night. I don't know if they have it in their game because Zoubek just gave them the option of driving right by him by playing too close to them at all times. (Again, the coaches may be telling him to do this, which I think is a mistake)

    3. Miles' ability to block shots is what separates him from Zoubek by . . . wait for it . . . Miles. There were two blocks that Miles got last night that led directly to points at the other end. Even when Zoub does block one, it rarely leads to a run out.

    4. Zoub's +/- is great and that is hard to argue. However, every statistic can lie because it may be confounded by other variables we are not measuring. I suspect that if Zoubek actually played more minutes, his +/- might not be as good as it is. However, there is no way I could prove this, so you could easily ignore this.

    5. Mason will add another dimension to this team. His rebounding, quickness, passing ability, shooting ability, and shot blocking are all a huge step up from even the best combination of these attributes from all of the next guys in the rotation behind him.

    6. Olek could have contributed well in that game, I think. He is a stronger rebounder than Lance and quicker laterally than Zoubek and probably could have guarded any of the ASU's big guys with relative ease due to their middling size.

    I don't think this was noted anywhere else, but where was Ryan Kelly? Why not set up the high-low offense with him and Miles? There were so many times Miles had his guy sealed and we just failed to deliver the ball to him. I think this has a lot to do with our lack of trust of our big guys, but I think it is inexcusable. Making him a threat and rewarding his hard work will pay huge dividends in terms of opening up our offense. I wish this would be a focus of our team in the early season. Our big guys could all learn that they don't have to make a great move when playing on the post, just turn and put it up. Our size advantage at every position should let us get a lot of offensive rebounds and shots from close in are much easier to predict in terms of rebounding than 3 point shots are.

  12. #72
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Nashville View Post
    If anything a thread should be created for Olek's Case.
    Olek who? Not Olek Czyz, surely.

    Bear in mind that the same opponents that made Czyz look somewhat competent at times made Zoubek look dominant.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Olek who? Not Olek Czyz, surely.

    Bear in mind that the same opponents that made Czyz look somewhat competent at times made Zoubek look dominant.
    Dominant? We need to define dominant. Those teams made him look like a 7 footer playing agianst guys who were 6'6". I agree that Olek would have matched up better on defense in last nights game. I guess we will never know since he never got a chance.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Nashville View Post
    If anything a thread should be created for Olek's Case.

    Nolan was getting killed on ball screens during the ASU game and Zubek's "help" then made it look even worse. Zoubs has his flashes of, "Thank God," or "finally!" Do not get me wrong I love Zoubs but I also loved Casey Sanders.....

    Olek could have matched up just as well against Boetang, and could have reached in just as well as Miles was...
    I think Zoubs is underdeveloped as a player. I think he had great talent but we just didn't bring it out of him at Duke. Casey Sanders was another one who we didn't get his best.

    I watch the old videos of the teams of the past on youtube, and honestly our current teams just don't have "it". It just makes me sad. What happened to us?

  15. #75
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    Mar 2007
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    Anybody besides me think Zoubek has a better chance of playing in the NBA than Thomas? Just sayin'

    Lots of frustration around because Coack K won't really play his bench and develope it.

    I have the same sort of frustration with UNC. Roy is determined to push the ball, straight to 20 plus to's a game, when he has a team that could be stronger (imo) if he would just slow it down a notch and set the 1/2 court offense.
    UNC is very hard to score on when the defense is set, but get beaten easily when out of position on To's. (Lot's of bigs to get beat off the dribble who depend on help). Why not slow it down with this particular team and limit the to's?

    Oh well, those two coaches have proven themselves and have their ways, which they are unlikely to change.

    We will just have to learn to live with them and the 25 + wins a year they seem to always get dispite their limitations

    P.S. Casey Sanders had Roberto Duran hands. No coach can overcome that.

  16. #76
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    Wink You Bet

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post

    Anybody besides me think Zoubek has a better chance of playing in the NBA than Thomas? Just sayin'
    I have had thoughts that Zoubek may get some time in the NBA. He has some decent physical skills beyond height and wingspan. Big guys are often slow in developing coordination. He will certainly get tryouts.

    I mean, who was the big galoot years ago at Georgia Tech that Laettner just wasted, who ended up with a huge NBA contract? (GT's archives go back only ten years.)

    sagegrouse

  17. #77
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    Aug 2007
    We'll see tonight. A true test of his abilities against a good opponent. Let's hope he has a good night.

  18. #78
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.

    Matt Geiger

    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I have had thoughts that Zoubek may get some time in the NBA. He has some decent physical skills beyond height and wingspan. Big guys are often slow in developing coordination. He will certainly get tryouts.

    I mean, who was the big galoot years ago at Georgia Tech that Laettner just wasted, who ended up with a huge NBA contract? (GT's archives go back only ten years.)

    sagegrouse
    Are you thinking of Geiger? What I really remember is the time Hurley was out, and Duke was playing GT in Atlanta. Coach K did a substitution, so that Grant Hill was the biggest Duke player on the floor, playing point. GT ended up with Geiger on Hill. You could see Hill's eyes get big when he saw the matchup. He drove and got fouled, but didn't make the hoop.

    I agree that Zoubs may get an NBA shot.

  19. #79
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.

    Uncomfortable feeling

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Anybody besides me think Zoubek has a better chance of playing in the NBA than Thomas? Just sayin'

    Lots of frustration around because Coack K won't really play his bench and develope it.

    I have the same sort of frustration with UNC. Roy is determined to push the ball, straight to 20 plus to's a game, when he has a team that could be stronger (imo) if he would just slow it down a notch and set the 1/2 court offense.
    UNC is very hard to score on when the defense is set, but get beaten easily when out of position on To's. (Lot's of bigs to get beat off the dribble who depend on help). Why not slow it down with this particular team and limit the to's?

    Oh well, those two coaches have proven themselves and have their ways, which they are unlikely to change.

    We will just have to learn to live with them and the 25 + wins a year they seem to always get dispite their limitations

    P.S. Casey Sanders had Roberto Duran hands. No coach can overcome that.
    Boy, I agree with you on all of this, especially Casey and his Manos de Piedra.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisheery View Post
    I agree with a few things that have been stated and I will just list them one by one:

    1. Zoubek is not a mobile guy that can guard people on the perimeter and really only seems to make things worse when he hedges screens and doesn't realize that Nolan or Jon has already gotten over/under/around the screen and he should retreat to the basket.

    .
    Give the Arizona guys, particularly the guard with the big butt, some credit for coming into Zoubs in a way and at an angle that took him out of a natural return lane. This guard was very old school, played slow and used his body well not just in scoring, ie, his bump into Zoubs on the drive, but, as I mentioned, in disrupting the show-by-the-big off the screen plays. I also thought that, as a team, Arizona was deft at using their bodies off the dribble on offense, not in a rough or powerful way, just effectively. Very, very well coached; allows them to play above their "athleticism"--man, do I hate that word.

    Zoubs could benefit from being softer through the spine and ribs. That would be huge. Huge! In my opinion, of course.

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