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  1. #1

    Zīs case

    Z is making a strong case for starting and/or getting more minutes. Just for argument's sake, compare his rebounding and scoring numbers to those of Miles and LT. If Z were playing their minutes, he would theoretically score about 12ppg and grab 13rpg along with 1.5apg, 1.5 steals and 0.4 blocks. That's a really impressive stat line. On a per minute basis, Z is putting up better stats than either LT or MiP.
    LT and MiP, however, offer what Z can't, flexibility on D. If Z were to replace LT, Miles would have to slide over to guarding smaller (hypothetically) quicker players because Z just isn't that mobile. If Z replaced Miles as the starter, LT could continue guarding smaller players but then Kyle would have to defend the PF, which would defeat the purpose of trying to play him as a guard.
    The D has been so stingy so far that I don't think K is itching to change it up too much. Offensive versatility wouldn't be altered too much by giving Z more minutes since none of LT, Z or MiP has even attempted a 3, although LT and Miles can hit jumpers from deeper than Z and can drive from the elbow better.
    It is entirely possible that K doesn’t want Z playing too many minutes due to concerns about the health of Z's feet. It has often seemed that Z played like he lacked confidence in his game and as such I think K lacked a bit of confidence to play Z more extended minutes. Brian has made rebounding a priority, which allows him to play more to his strengths and he is now playing with more poise than before. I'm just observing that Brian's play to this point has been praiseworthy and that I wouldn't be shocked if K started him as a reward.

  2. #2
    The problem with projecting Zoubek to play starters minutes is that you have not only extrapolate the good stats, but the bad ones as well.

    He's average .22 fouls a minute. At this rate, Zoubek can't play more than 22 minutes a game before he fouls out...

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    Z is making a strong case for starting and/or getting more minutes. Just for argument's sake, compare his rebounding and scoring numbers to those of Miles and LT. If Z were playing their minutes, he would theoretically score about 12ppg and grab 13rpg along with 1.5apg, 1.5 steals and 0.4 blocks. That's a really impressive stat line. On a per minute basis, Z is putting up better stats than either LT or MiP.
    LT and MiP, however, offer what Z can't, flexibility on D. If Z were to replace LT, Miles would have to slide over to guarding smaller (hypothetically) quicker players because Z just isn't that mobile. If Z replaced Miles as the starter, LT could continue guarding smaller players but then Kyle would have to defend the PF, which would defeat the purpose of trying to play him as a guard.
    The D has been so stingy so far that I don't think K is itching to change it up too much. Offensive versatility wouldn't be altered too much by giving Z more minutes since none of LT, Z or MiP has even attempted a 3, although LT and Miles can hit jumpers from deeper than Z and can drive from the elbow better.
    It is entirely possible that K doesn’t want Z playing too many minutes due to concerns about the health of Z's feet. It has often seemed that Z played like he lacked confidence in his game and as such I think K lacked a bit of confidence to play Z more extended minutes. Brian has made rebounding a priority, which allows him to play more to his strengths and he is now playing with more poise than before. I'm just observing that Brian's play to this point has been praiseworthy and that I wouldn't be shocked if K started him as a reward.
    not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him....yeah...when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine
    1200. DDMF.

  4. #4
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    I hope you are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him....yeah...when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine
    Because when conference play begins, we will need Zoubs to play some important mins. If he's getting the ball slapped out of his hands by a 6'2" guy then we could be in trouble. Last year was the first time he played healthy and he played much better. I am hoping for good senior years from LT and Zoubs. I'm not going to bash either this year. Go Duke!

  5. #5
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    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Smile Zoubs

    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him....yeah...when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine
    As he showed last year and in the first four games, Zoubs can be an effective performer against some teams for long stretches and against a lot of teams for short periods of time. Thus, he has a gaudy plus/minus stat, when his minutes are thus controlled.

    I think the plan for this year (mine, anyway, although it may be K's) is for the team to really rock with MP1 and MP2 in the starting positions and for LT and Zoubs to play valuable minutes.

    sagegrouse

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    He lightened his load this year and it shows. Regardless of if he starts or stays on the bench, I'll be sorry to see him go. Each year he has continued to get better and control what he can. I don't think he'll ever get over his clumsiness, it's inherant..so he will foul plenty and lose the ball when he shouldn't. S'ok...I'll still holler "Zoubs!" every chance I get.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him....yeah...when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine
    You are allowing yourself to be deceived by the fact that Z and his game lack the aesthetically pleasing elements that most people expect in high level basketball players.

    As I detailed in an earlier thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...5&postcount=54), Z's per minute production was outstanding last year and is off the chart this year. In fact, if you look at the stats, most of the usual complaints about him turn out to be fiction:

    * The guy was one of the top rebounders per minute in the ACC last year and this year averages almost 22 rebounds per 40 minutes. So, notwithstanding your slight against his boxing out skills, and while he may "fumble" a few rebounds away, he's still pulling in more boards than anybody else on the Duke team (and most other teams as well).

    * His turnovers per 40 are only OK, but his numbers both this year and last are similar to Ed Davis's and better than Nolan Smith's, so it's not like the ball gets slapped out of his hands a disproportional amount. It's just perhaps when it happens to Z it's more readily noticed.

    * While you didn't list this among Z's perceived inadequacies, I have often heard people say he can't dunk and misses a lot of close-in shots. But since his shooting percentage was close to 60% the past two years and is 65% so far this year, these criticisms are -- again -- misplaced due to a lack of style points.

    * His plus/minus numbers were outstanding last year and even better this year, so whether you think so or not, the team is better off when he's on the floor.

    Having said all that, Z's foul numbers need a lot of improvement (over 9 per 40 minutes). And it's possible that his per minute numbers are so good because K picks his spots with Z and only deploys him in advantageous situations. But it's also possible his per minute production and plus/minus figures would remain at a high level no matter who we play. We may find out over the course of the year or we may not. But either way the derogatory tone you use to describe Z and his game are, IMO, completely uncalled for.

    Oh, and I do watch the games, by the way. I also happen to be capable of evaluating statistics and seeing the bigger picture. Perhaps you ought to try doing the same before denigrating one of our players.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Give me a good old fashion Brand, Boozer or Shel for my money. That said I love the potential and improvement of the Plumlees, repectively. I can't wait to see them both out there together. I think that's our best chance of going deep into the tournament, not to mention it's our future.

  9. #9
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    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    Give me a good old fashion Brand, Boozer or Shel for my money. That said I love the potential and improvement of the Plumlees, repectively. I can't wait to see them both out there together. I think that's our best chance of going deep into the tournament, not to mention it's our future.
    Elton Brand isn't walking through that door, so enjoy what we have. Zoubs is a lot better than many of you seem to think.

  10. #10
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    Feb 2007
    I like Z in his current backup center role. He can come in for 10-15 min/gm, go all out, crash the offensive boards and not worry too much about fouls. I think Kedsy nailed it when he wrote that Z's per-min and plus-minus stats are very good b/c he is used in advantageous situations. Miles, to me, is the better player and better fit for motion offense because he can move, but Z is effective in short bursts and against certain matchups. I think everyone is in the correct role right now.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    I like Z in his current backup center role. He can come in for 10-15 min/gm, go all out, crash the offensive boards and not worry too much about fouls. I think Kedsy nailed it when he wrote that Z's per-min and plus-minus stats are very good b/c he is used in advantageous situations. Miles, to me, is the better player and better fit for motion offense because he can move, but Z is effective in short bursts and against certain matchups. I think everyone is in the correct role right now.
    /thread
    1200. DDMF.

  12. #12
    The thing about Zoubek is that he is at the same time productive and frustrating.

    He by virtue of his size,gets his hands on a lot of rebounds, so why when so many of them he loses control of gets extremely frustrating, on the other hand, the ones he does manage to control is still a very good production. But because the ones he looks like he should get and doesn't, it makes the spectator focus on the missed opportunities rather than his actual production.

  13. #13
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    I'm pleased that Zoubs has been productive and hope that he continues to contribute.

    The whole team has been playing real well, including Miles Plumlee who has rebounded well, scored inside, and blocked some shots. And soon Mason will be returning from his injury and getting into action; most observers considered him a key piece and likely starter.

    My question is this...if Zoubs is to get an expanded role and additional minutes, which players would deserve to get fewer minutes?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    I'm pleased that Zoubs has been productive and hope that he continues to contribute.

    The whole team has been playing real well, including Miles Plumlee who has rebounded well, scored inside, and blocked some shots. And soon Mason will be returning from his injury and getting into action; most observers considered him a key piece and likely starter.

    My question is this...if Zoubs is to get an expanded role and additional minutes, which players would deserve to get fewer minutes?
    Actually, none. I heard that K is petitioning the NCAA to lengthen the game to 50 minutes to have more to pass around.

  15. #15
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    You are allowing yourself to be deceived by the fact that Z and his game lack the aesthetically pleasing elements that most people expect in high level basketball players.

    As I detailed in an earlier thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...5&postcount=54), Z's per minute production was outstanding last year and is off the chart this year. In fact, if you look at the stats, most of the usual complaints about him turn out to be fiction:

    * The guy was one of the top rebounders per minute in the ACC last year and this year averages almost 22 rebounds per 40 minutes. So, notwithstanding your slight against his boxing out skills, and while he may "fumble" a few rebounds away, he's still pulling in more boards than anybody else on the Duke team (and most other teams as well).

    * His turnovers per 40 are only OK, but his numbers both this year and last are similar to Ed Davis's and better than Nolan Smith's, so it's not like the ball gets slapped out of his hands a disproportional amount. It's just perhaps when it happens to Z it's more readily noticed.

    * While you didn't list this among Z's perceived inadequacies, I have often heard people say he can't dunk and misses a lot of close-in shots. But since his shooting percentage was close to 60% the past two years and is 65% so far this year, these criticisms are -- again -- misplaced due to a lack of style points.

    * His plus/minus numbers were outstanding last year and even better this year, so whether you think so or not, the team is better off when he's on the floor.

    Having said all that, Z's foul numbers need a lot of improvement (over 9 per 40 minutes). And it's possible that his per minute numbers are so good because K picks his spots with Z and only deploys him in advantageous situations. But it's also possible his per minute production and plus/minus figures would remain at a high level no matter who we play. We may find out over the course of the year or we may not. But either way the derogatory tone you use to describe Z and his game are, IMO, completely uncalled for.

    Oh, and I do watch the games, by the way. I also happen to be capable of evaluating statistics and seeing the bigger picture. Perhaps you ought to try doing the same before denigrating one of our players.
    In 4 games Z has posted rebounding numbers of 7, 5, 13, and 9. All off the bench. I don't care what the competition is, those are darn good numbers in limited minutes. The guy is bustin' his hump.

    I think bringing up style points is a great point. Not much he does is pretty but he's very effective while he's in there. No way Z is going NOT going to be part of the regular rotation with the kind of production he's been providing. He's earned it.
    Last edited by jipops; 11-23-2009 at 07:48 PM. Reason: fat finger

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    In 4 games Z has posted rebounding numbers of 7, 5, 13, and 9. All off the bench. I don't care what the competition is, those are darn good numbers in limited minutes. The guy is bustin' his hump.

    I think bringing up style points is a great point. Not much he does is pretty but he's very effective while he's in there. No way Z is going NOT going to be part of the regular rotation with the kind of production he's been providing. He's earned it.

    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1...a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night...
    1200. DDMF.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1...a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night...
    He's averaging 8 points and 9 boards in 15 minutes of playtime. I'm not sure how you define that as not close to a double-double. Besides that, there was nothing pitiable about Radford's center.

    Edit: Well, maybe his free throw shooting, although that makes Zoub's fouls somewhat more sensible.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1...a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night...
    What are you smoking?

    Those numbers are GREAT for someone playing fifteen minutes per game. Keep in mind that he is often playing with Kelly or Lance (or both), along with Singler. They tend to eat up some rebounds too.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1...a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night...
    And Z would be, if he got sufficient minutes. Maybe he doesn't get the minutes because he fouls too much, maybe it's because of Duke's frontcourt depth this season, or maybe K only wants to use him in certain situations. But when the guy is pulling down 22 rebounds per 40 minutes, you sound silly when you say he's not producing.

    I would also say your statement that a 7'1" player should double/double every night is kind of silly, in light of the evidence over the years which clearly shows the vast majority of players that size don't average a double/double. Frankly, most of them don't come close.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1...a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night...
    You obviously have not watched any Duke games so far. Of course only two have been televised so I partially understand. His last output was 9 boards in 14 minutes mostly against a 270lb muscle mass center who would most likely start on any team in this conference and I'd be willing to bet is getting looks from scouts in the association.

    These are rebound numbers while averaging about 15 minutes pg.

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