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Thread: Zīs case

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchool View Post
    That was a horribly officiated game, with obvious fouls going uncalled on Okafor and phantom fouls being handed against our guys. I don't think that was just my blue-colored glasses.
    Please lets not dwell on this game. I still haven't gotten over it. Worst officiating ever.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    You are allowing yourself to be deceived by the fact that Z and his game lack the aesthetically pleasing elements that most people expect in high level basketball players.

    As I detailed in an earlier thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...5&postcount=54), Z's per minute production was outstanding last year and is off the chart this year. In fact, if you look at the stats, most of the usual complaints about him turn out to be fiction:

    * The guy was one of the top rebounders per minute in the ACC last year and this year averages almost 22 rebounds per 40 minutes. So, notwithstanding your slight against his boxing out skills, and while he may "fumble" a few rebounds away, he's still pulling in more boards than anybody else on the Duke team (and most other teams as well).

    * His turnovers per 40 are only OK, but his numbers both this year and last are similar to Ed Davis's and better than Nolan Smith's, so it's not like the ball gets slapped out of his hands a disproportional amount. It's just perhaps when it happens to Z it's more readily noticed.

    * While you didn't list this among Z's perceived inadequacies, I have often heard people say he can't dunk and misses a lot of close-in shots. But since his shooting percentage was close to 60% the past two years and is 65% so far this year, these criticisms are -- again -- misplaced due to a lack of style points.

    * His plus/minus numbers were outstanding last year and even better this year, so whether you think so or not, the team is better off when he's on the floor.

    Having said all that, Z's foul numbers need a lot of improvement (over 9 per 40 minutes). And it's possible that his per minute numbers are so good because K picks his spots with Z and only deploys him in advantageous situations. But it's also possible his per minute production and plus/minus figures would remain at a high level no matter who we play. We may find out over the course of the year or we may not. But either way the derogatory tone you use to describe Z and his game are, IMO, completely uncalled for.

    Oh, and I do watch the games, by the way. I also happen to be capable of evaluating statistics and seeing the bigger picture. Perhaps you ought to try doing the same before denigrating one of our players.
    In 4 games Z has posted rebounding numbers of 7, 5, 13, and 9. All off the bench. I don't care what the competition is, those are darn good numbers in limited minutes. The guy is bustin' his hump.

    I think bringing up style points is a great point. Not much he does is pretty but he's very effective while he's in there. No way Z is going NOT going to be part of the regular rotation with the kind of production he's been providing. He's earned it.
    Last edited by jipops; 11-23-2009 at 07:48 PM. Reason: fat finger

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    In 4 games Z has posted rebounding numbers of 7, 5, 13, and 9. All off the bench. I don't care what the competition is, those are darn good numbers in limited minutes. The guy is bustin' his hump.

    I think bringing up style points is a great point. Not much he does is pretty but he's very effective while he's in there. No way Z is going NOT going to be part of the regular rotation with the kind of production he's been providing. He's earned it.

    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....
    9f

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....
    He's averaging 8 points and 9 boards in 15 minutes of playtime. I'm not sure how you define that as not close to a double-double. Besides that, there was nothing pitiable about Radford's center.

    Edit: Well, maybe his free throw shooting, although that makes Zoub's fouls somewhat more sensible.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....
    What are you smoking?

    Those numbers are GREAT for someone playing fifteen minutes per game. Keep in mind that he is often playing with Kelly or Lance (or both), along with Singler. They tend to eat up some rebounds too.

  6. #26
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    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....
    And Z would be, if he got sufficient minutes. Maybe he doesn't get the minutes because he fouls too much, maybe it's because of Duke's frontcourt depth this season, or maybe K only wants to use him in certain situations. But when the guy is pulling down 22 rebounds per 40 minutes, you sound silly when you say he's not producing.

    I would also say your statement that a 7'1" player should double/double every night is kind of silly, in light of the evidence over the years which clearly shows the vast majority of players that size don't average a double/double. Frankly, most of them don't come close.

  7. #27
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    May 2009
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    Duke's on the radar when I check the weather
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchool View Post
    That was a horribly officiated game

    Okay, I'll give you that. That game drove me up the wall too. My point was merely that throughout his 3+ years at Duke, Z has been a foul waiting to happen. It sucks but is true, and his constant fouling has been and continues to be why he doesn't see minutes for extended periods of time.

    To the OP's statement 'he deserves more minutes' -- he can't b/c he is always in foul trouble.

  8. #28
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....
    You obviously have not watched any Duke games so far. Of course only two have been televised so I partially understand. His last output was 9 boards in 14 minutes mostly against a 270lb muscle mass center who would most likely start on any team in this conference and I'd be willing to bet is getting looks from scouts in the association.

    These are rebound numbers while averaging about 15 minutes pg.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ElonIsRising View Post
    Heck, if there is anyone he SHOULD be able to keep up with it is someone that is close to his size (ie not small and athletic).
    This logic escapes me. Parakhouski is very good around the basket, is very athletic, and draws a ton of fouls. Did you not watch the game? If not, then I can understand why you would be so casually dismissive of "the likes of Radford"...but believe me, this guy is good down low.

    Z does foul a lot, but I don't think one should expect him to foul LESS against Radford simply because the center is tall...

  10. #30
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    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Question What Brought This On?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post

    Oh, and I do watch the games, by the way. I also happen to be capable of evaluating statistics and seeing the bigger picture. Perhaps you ought to try doing the same before denigrating one of our players.
    I'll let the mods handle this outburst against my man "uh_oh," whose observations seem reasonable and not unnecessarily harsh. Like, uh_oh, I have been waiting for three+ years for things to click into place, which often happens late for seven footers. So far, we are still waiting, although all of us agree that Zoubs is highly productive in a limited role.

    Have you considered that the "lack of aesthetically pleasing elements" may also be equated in the coaches' minds to "lack of basketball skills?" And maybe this is why Zoubek is playing only 15 minutes per game, even against weak competition and MP2 sidelined? K likes skilled and mobile players, who are not rooted to one position on the court.

    Perhaps you think he should be playing much more, even with his acknowledged propensity to foul. Of course, averaging 3.5 fouls per 15 minutes of action would make it hard for even the most supportive coach to get Zoubs more than 20 MPG.

    sagegrouse

  11. #31
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    Feb 2007
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    Inman, SC & Melbourne Beach, FL
    Neither LT nor Z have lived up to my own expectations, but they are what they are, and I am delighted to have their contributions. Imagine what we would have if they were not on the team.

  12. #32
    Here are the Zoubek stats that matter most:

    Charlotte - 16 minutes, 4 fouls
    Radford - 14 minutes, 5 fouls
    C. Carolina - 16 minutes, 2 fouls
    UNCG - 16 minutes, 3 fouls

    Extrapolating his stats to 35-40 minutes/game doesn't make any sense at all when he's shown no capacity to stay on the floor for more than the 15-20 he's getting.

    Zoubek is a good player who is excelling in the role he's currently in. I'm pretty happy with that.

  13. #33
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    Feb 2007
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    Richmond, VA

    This is a team game

    I know we like to dissect individual's numbers but when anyone person gets a rebound or foul it is due to other things on the court. The fact that someone has to keep Zoubs occupied because he is 7'1" gives our other big guys an opportunity to get rebounds and visa versa. When a guard gets beat on the perimeter the bigs have to go for the block which leads to fouls.

    What I am pleased with our big men (perhaps it is due to the set-up of the defense) is that the fouls have meaning. They are when someone is near the basket. They are not the touch fouls covering someone 30 feet from the basket. Do I wish Zoubs fouled less? Of course. Am I glad that the fouls send a message close to the basket? yes.

  14. #34
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    Feb 2007
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    Towson, MD
    Honest question and request:

    Could someone please provide Zoubek's splits for his numbers against non-conference opponents, and his numbers against ACC competition?

    I could turn out to be wrong, but what I think I have observed over Zoubek's career is that he dominates weak competition and is a matchup player at best against ACC opponents. While Zoubek's numbers have improved, most likely due to the fact he is healthy and also more experienced, it's tough for me to read too much into his statistical production thus far because of how inferior our opponents have been.

    Either way, I'd be interested to see the actual splits.

    I hope Brian continues to improve, but I'm hoping for nothing more than a good-rebounding backup center who can play 8-10 solid minutes against ACC competition. I would much rather give minutes to the Plumlee brothers at Zoubek's expense so that they can develop as much as possible.

  15. #35
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    Mar 2007
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    Boca Grande Florida
    I actually like Zoubek's game. He has his limitations, but he is not a bad player and he can contribute in big games. He's been a little unlucky with injuries, but he's done nothing I've ever seen but work hard.

    He has a couple of solid baseline moves, if he gets the time, and he is big and strong which forces the other centers to have to work inside. He doesn't give up anything easy. He can get the team some "garbage" put back points and alter or block some shots inside.

    His problems are obvious after three years. He makes poor decisions. He is not quick, his hands are not the best, and he lacks brakes. That's where the fouls come from. He's like the super tanker that takes three miles to stop after it's underway.

    Duke will get some nice minutes from him, but if you are counting on him against the better big men in the conference or the country, you are in trouble.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  16. #36
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    Feb 2008
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    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor

    He contributes more than he gets credit

    Say what you want about the big fella but he is a situational player who has contributed when called on in the last 2 years.

    He turned that game last year in the ACC Championship against FSU with his defense on Solomon A. His defense helped trigger the big run in the first half.

    And I am not sure we win the NCAA game against Texas without his defense on their 300 pounder either. He is not a star and never will be. But to state he is useless against good/great teams is not entirely true.. It is all about matchups for Zoubs..

    Wainstein Report Page 19 Section G:
    In men’s basketball, academic counselor Burgess McSwain (“McSwain”) and
    her successor Wayne Walden routinely called Crowder to arrange classes for their
    players.
    Roy Williams Of Nazareth had no knowledge however. He is sinless.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I'll let the mods handle this outburst against my man "uh_oh," whose observations seem reasonable and not unnecessarily harsh. Like, uh_oh, I have been waiting for three+ years for things to click into place, which often happens late for seven footers. So far, we are still waiting, although all of us agree that Zoubs is highly productive in a limited role.

    Have you considered that the "lack of aesthetically pleasing elements" may also be equated in the coaches' minds to "lack of basketball skills?" And maybe this is why Zoubek is playing only 15 minutes per game, even against weak competition and MP2 sidelined? K likes skilled and mobile players, who are not rooted to one position on the court.

    Perhaps you think he should be playing much more, even with his acknowledged propensity to foul. Of course, averaging 3.5 fouls per 15 minutes of action would make it hard for even the most supportive coach to get Zoubs more than 20 MPG.
    I wasn't advocating anything and I acknowledged that it would be hard to give him more minutes given his foul rate. Really, with all the frontcourt depth we have, if I were coaching I'm not sure if I'd give him more minutes or not. Instead, I was reacting to the quote below, which (whether or not uh_oh is your "man") in my opinion is quite harsh and not particularly reasonable at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way.....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him.....yeah....when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine
    Frankly, sagegrouse I find several of your observations harsh as well. When I watch Z he moves around a lot; in fact, sometimes when he lets himself get pulled out to the perimeter I kind of wish he'd stay home a bit more. But to say he's "rooted to one position on the court" or to suggest he lacks basketball skills is simply mean as well as inaccurate.

    If his defense was so bad, his plus/minus wouldn't be so good. If he couldn't box out or he gave away so many rebounds, his rebounding per minute numbers wouldn't be the best on the team. If he mishandled the ball or let it get slapped away so often, his turnover rate wouldn't be better than Nolan Smith's. If he got blocked a lot or missed too many layups, his shooting percentage wouldn't be 65%.

    He often looks awkward out there, and you appear to equate that with a lack of skills, but if he truly were so unskilled he wouldn't be able to put up the numbers he does in the small amount of minutes he gets. He's even a pretty good passer for a big man.

    And he hasn't just shown it against weak competition. His per minute numbers last year were outstanding, including the entire ACC season.

    As I said in my earlier post, it's completely possible his stellar per minute numbers are due to K correctly identifying the situations where Z would best perform and only playing him in those situations. In which case he's being utilized for exactly the right number of minutes. But just because he might not succeed in every situation is no reason to hate on him.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oriole Way View Post
    Honest question and request:

    Could someone please provide Zoubek's splits for his numbers against non-conference opponents, and his numbers against ACC competition?
    Not sure why you couldn't do this yourself, but last year his numbers were as follows:

    Non-conference (including NCAAT), per 40 minutes: 18.3 pts, 12.9 rebs
    ACC (including ACCT), per 40 minutes: 8.3 pts, 11.9 rebs


    So, clearly he scored a lot more against non-conference opponents, but his rebounding was pretty similar and pretty good against both conference and non-conference opponents.

  19. #39
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    Dec 2008
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    CA
    zoubek is doing great coming off the bench...he fits that role as a bench player. i doubt giving more minutes to zoubek will help the team because it takes away minutes from Miles who is really developing well this season. I cant wait until Mason gets healthy.

  20. #40
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    CA
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    Z is making a strong case for starting and/or getting more minutes. Just for argument's sake, compare his rebounding and scoring numbers to those of Miles and LT. If Z were playing their minutes, he would theoretically score about 12ppg and grab 13rpg along with 1.5apg, 1.5 steals and 0.4 blocks. That's a really impressive stat line. On a per minute basis, Z is putting up better stats than either LT or MiP.
    LT and MiP, however, offer what Z can't, flexibility on D. If Z were to replace LT, Miles would have to slide over to guarding smaller (hypothetically) quicker players because Z just isn't that mobile. If Z replaced Miles as the starter, LT could continue guarding smaller players but then Kyle would have to defend the PF, which would defeat the purpose of trying to play him as a guard.
    The D has been so stingy so far that I don't think K is itching to change it up too much. Offensive versatility wouldn't be altered too much by giving Z more minutes since none of LT, Z or MiP has even attempted a 3, although LT and Miles can hit jumpers from deeper than Z and can drive from the elbow better.
    It is entirely possible that K doesn’t want Z playing too many minutes due to concerns about the health of Z's feet. It has often seemed that Z played like he lacked confidence in his game and as such I think K lacked a bit of confidence to play Z more extended minutes. Brian has made rebounding a priority, which allows him to play more to his strengths and he is now playing with more poise than before. I'm just observing that Brian's play to this point has been praiseworthy and that I wouldn't be shocked if K started him as a reward.
    0.4 blocks!!! r u sure thats right. seem a little low. i would think something like 2.5 blocks before consider starting him

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