Barnes to UNC

[JaMarcus Russell]

They have focused more and more on getting kids with rich parents and it's created a totally different atmosphere on campus.

Do you have any kind of facts to back that up? I have a very hard time believing any of this, especially with the financial aid drives in 2005-06.

[duke09hms]

I will say this again in clearer terms...the problem isn't Coach K, it is Duke University(the school, the students, etc.) Has Duke overcome the whole lax episode? Maybe so, maybe not. It sure does seem like we've stopped getting our top targets since the "incident". Duke isn't the same as it was when I graduated in 1998. They have focused more and more on getting kids with rich parents and it's created a totally different atmosphere on campus. Do you think a high school kid like Barnes would feel more comfortable around a bunch of spoiled rich kids or a bunch of public school kids? The answer is obvious. Coach K does wonders with the cards he is dealt.

The connection between the lax incident and financial background of our students is nonexistent. I can think of many other plausible reasons (exhaustively discussed on this board) for our "relative" recruiting failures the last couple years.

And regarding "focused on getting rich kids" - definitely not the case. Duke has always had need-blind admissions, and with the new financial aid package in 2007 offering at least full tuition+living expenses scholarships to families making under 60k/year with no loans, there are less and less rich kids on campus. The % of incoming freshmen applying for financial aid increases every year. This Dukie graduated in May having paid less than 5k total for my 4 year education - all covered by Duke need-based scholarships. No athletic or merit scholarships, all financial need-based.

Vast majority of Duke students are from public schools, over 70%. Gees, it really annoys me when people tap into false convenient pre-existing notions as legit explanations.

The fact is, and as hard as it may be to admit it, K is getting outrecruited by Roy. From Mrs. Barnes' comments, it seems like Roy just outworks the field. Hopefully this last recruiting miss really ignites the fire under K.

[juise]

did he seriously commit to unc before he came out to his OV at duke? did i read that article right?

dont get me wrong i stopped liking him the minute he said coach roy williams, but sheesh, downright dirty. how many other recruits have led us on like this?

Everything with him seemed kind of staged and phony. He will fit right in with Ol Roy.

We're all very disappointed about Harrison's choice, but let's not let the sour grapes get toxic. I would not say that Kyrie's anouncement was that much different from Harrison. In regard to Kyrie, most of this board said, "Let him have his moment. Let him enjoy his time in the spotlight." By all accounts, Kyrie had made his decision before he made a few more visits. Many posters said that Kyrie was doing those schools a favor by taking the visit. Would Harrison have shamed Duke by committing to UNC before taking his Duke official visit? Instead, he wrote glowing things about Duke's players, coaches, and campus.

I will say this again in clearer terms...the problem isn't Coach K, it is Duke University(the school, the students, etc.) Has Duke overcome the whole lax episode? Maybe so, maybe not. It sure does seem like we've stopped getting our top targets since the "incident". Duke isn't the same as it was when I graduated in 1998. They have focused more and more on getting kids with rich parents and it's created a totally different atmosphere on campus. Do you think a high school kid like Barnes would feel more comfortable around a bunch of spoiled rich kids or a bunch of public school kids? The answer is obvious. Coach K does wonders with the cards he is dealt.

Vince, I am guessing that your intentions are good here, but this is exactly the kind of post that anti-Duke fans would come here hoping to see.

I graduated in 2004, but I can't imagine that this is a reasonable assessment. Are you on campus right now or were you there prior to 2006? It seems that you were very careful to leave ethnicity out of your argument and focus on economics. But I think that when people read "spoiled rick kids," they generally think "white." It seems that you're suggesting that Duke, post-scandal, can only attract... well, white kids.

Let's look at Duke's last #1ish recruiting class. It has to be the 2005 class, which was before the "incident." So that part of your argument almost holds up, but... the 2 biggest contributors to that ranking were McRoberts (#1 overall) and Paulus (#3 point guard). Paulus went to a private school and McRoberts went to a public school in a very affluent community. So... let's not say that the trend started because of the "incident."

However, I do believe that Duke recruiting has been different since 2006. Personally, I think the NBA's "one and done" rule changed the recruiting landscape immensely. I am running out of steam in this post and don't have time to go into my theory on this, but I would just beg you and other posters not to perpetuate stereotypes about Duke. If you have data to back up such harsh accusations, then perhaps that should be shared. But let's not allow are disappointment to perpetuate ideas that are hurtful to the University and to the program we love.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Well, I never saw the list of our targets to see who was on top, but my guess is Kyle, G, Mason, and Kyrie could all be called our top target for their year.

Frankly, I'm not sure HB was our "top" target. It seems clear to me that Kyrie (the #4 ranked player of the class who plays a position we desperately need) was, or at least should have been, a more important target than Barnes (the #1 ranked player who plays a position at which we have other excellent options).

And do you really think the teams that go to the Final Four all have the most talent? Because history (both past and recent) suggests otherwise.



Why would African-American backcourt players like it here but not frontcourt players? How can that be a racial thing? And, by the way, Shelden was a senior in 2006 and Patterson was a freshman in 2007, so your "ages" are pretty short. Also, Josh Hairston is ranked higher than Roscoe Smith, is African-American, and has already signed his letter of intent, so if I did think there was anything to your theory, I don't know how Roscoe Smith changes anything.



Kyrie is ranked #4 by the RSCI. G was #10. However, neither of them are frontcourt players, which is what the previous poster was attempting to theorize about.



Oh, please. I don't want to know how an aura can drown, but I do think it's important in your sixth post to clarify that you don't want Coach K to step down. Oh, by the way, Kyrie Irving is a difference-making recruit.




(ok, I admit I am getting a little cranky; I probably should sign off for awhile)

I did not know that Hairston is rated higher than Smith, thanks for the info. That said, Coach K, presently still has trouble recruited the top or near top ranked African-American front court player.

I could be totally mistaken here, but wasn't Johnny Dawkins influential in recruiting Brand and S. Williams?

[VaDukie]

I did not know that Hairston is rated higher than Smith, thanks for the info. That said, Coach K, presently still has trouble recruited the top or near top ranked African-American front court player.

I could be totally mistaken here, but wasn't Johnny Dawkins influential in recruiting Brand and S. Williams?

Dawkins didn't even become an assistant until 1998. He may have played a role while he was serving as an administrative assistant (similar role to Carawell's now), but I don't know how significant of a factor he was with Brand. As far as Shelden, it was my understanding (and I could be the one mistaken here) that JD didn't take a very active role recruiting in recent years because he didn't like traveling and spending that much time away from his family. The only recruits he played a vital role with were Henderson and Smith because he played with their fathers.

I feel like it's almost pointless to ask, but I really wish that one day this board (and others) could stop seeing every recruit from a racial angle.

[tmatt13]

Best post I read about the pain is that we can hand the mantle of the Yankees of college basketball to Carolina. So I say let them face the backlash. Ol' Roy and his homespun ways. Hansborough not getting a significant foul called against him in four years - and Carolina getting all the calls. Let Doyel turn his focus to them. Not a single player getting in academic trouble in the 20 years since I graduated, while Duke guys are called out for majoring in sociology. And most notably, the fact that Ol' Roy has coached two of the top 5 premier programs and has had exactly one of his players in 21 years make any kind of impact in the NBA - Paul Pierce.

I feel better already.

[roywhite]

Well, sure enough, the sun did come up this morning.

Just a few thoughts:

No second guessing of the efforts of Coach K and the staff; they were involved early and did their best to land HB.

I didn't care much for that contrived show that HB put on yesterday, and also the idea that he's been a silent commit for UNC for some time, and didn't tell other coaches. I don't think I'll have difficulty rooting against him as a Tar Heel.

Examples abound of very highly rated recruits who don't quite pan out. And if HB is a star right off the bat, chances grow that he'll be a one year college player. Is Brandan Wright a name we associate as being a major factor in ACC basketball?

On to the next play, which may include a chance at Roscoe Smith in the 2010 class or some very good small forward types in 2011.

Go, Duke.

[calvindog]

Well, I never saw the list of our targets to see who was on top, but my guess is Kyle, G, Mason, and Kyrie could all be called our top target for their year.

Frankly, I'm not sure HB was our "top" target. It seems clear to me that Kyrie (the #4 ranked player of the class who plays a position we desperately need) was, or at least should have been, a more important target than Barnes (the #1 ranked player who plays a position at which we have other excellent options).

Your guess would be wrong. As I listed, we whiffed on our top targets for those years i.e., Boynton, Barnes, Monroe, Patterson.

[Buckeye Devil]

Landscapes change in college athletics. Notre Dame used to be the place to go for top college football players. That clearly has changed. It has something to do with winning and winning big. Notre Dame has only won one bowl game (an inconsequential one at that) in the past 15 years or so. When was the last time they beat USC? They lost to Navy again at home and are staring at a 4 or 5 loss season unless there is some sort of divine intervention. It also has something to do with the type of athlete that ND can recruit being a prestigious Catholic university as well as the type of player that would want to go there given its stature, location, etc. Plus, college athletes have changed in character and quality. They do not look at tradition and history but rather the most recent success, of which ND has zilch. ND has also done a pretty lousy job at head coach selections but may right the ship if they get Kelly from Cincinnati next year. Of course there are other factors. Will ND ever regain its position as the king of college football? I don't think so.

I am not drawing exact comparisons to Duke as Duke has been more successful in basketball in the past 10 years or so than ND has been in football in the past 15 years, but I think there are some parallels. Let's face it. Since the 2001 national title, Duke has only been to 1 Final 4 where they lost to the eventual national champs. They have not been close to being a Final 4 team let alone a national champ calibre team in the past 5 years. Yes, there have been ACC titles and good years, but that pales in comparison to Final 4's and NC's. Duke has not won big in the past 8 years and most kids Duke is trying to recruit today were 8 or 9 in 2001. The titles and Final 4's by UNC are fresh and vivid in their minds. Calipari's recent successes, thug that he is, are flashy and relevant. 2001 is not a long time ago to me, but it is an eternity for a 17 year old. Duke the University also carries with it a certain prestige and image that some modern prospects just won't want. And while I did not go to Duke, I know that it is much more rigorous and demanding academically than virtually every other school that it will compete against in recruiting. It takes more of a quality kid to go to Duke than it does to go to another lesser school. I suppose that makes the Barnes choice all the more painful as he at least seemed different.

With that said, realistically Duke is still a top program, but it is no longer "the program." UNC has clearly taken over that role in the past 5 years as much as I hate to say it. Thank goodness Duke is not falling and will not fall to the depths that Notre Dame football has in recent memory. But I think that it will take a string of a couple Final 4's and/or a national championship for Duke to return to the platform of the upper echelon programs. Something needs to happen and fairly soon or else Duke will continue to lose out on the most coveted players. And in college basketball, those are the players that often get you to the next level.

[jipops]

Well, sure enough, the sun did come up this morning.

Just a few thoughts:

No second guessing of the efforts of Coach K and the staff; they were involved early and did their best to land HB.

I didn't care much for that contrived show that HB put on yesterday, and also the idea that he's been a silent commit for UNC for some time, and didn't tell other coaches. I don't think I'll have difficulty rooting against him as a Tar Heel.

Examples abound of very highly rated recruits who don't quite pan out. And if HB is a star right off the bat, chances grow that he'll be a one year college player. Is Brandan Wright a name we associate as being a major factor in ACC basketball?

On to the next play, which may include a chance at Roscoe Smith in the 2010 class or some very good small forward types in 2011.

Go, Duke.

Most signs point to HP not being a one-and-done which would be very unfortunate for us. Believing he's gone after one year may really just be wishful thinking.

[mailman2927]

let's not get too crazy over this. although there is alot of hype surrounding this kid, he hasn't proven anything yet. let's face it he's not playing against the best competition in iowa. he may turn out to be great or maybe not. let's keep in mind some of the top recruits duke got that didn't exactly pan out. here are a few off the top of my head. i'm sure there are more.

mcroberts
shav
paulus
beard
boateng
thompson
chappelle

also, i think kyrie is going to turn out to be a much more important recruit. look at most of the teams that have a national championship over the years, the common denominator is a great pg. as evidenced by duke's three titles.

[dukelifer]

How do you recruit someone for two years and have someone come in for the last four months and take that recruit?

Because North Carolina/Jordan has been a part of this kid's life since he was born. This is not the 1960's and 1970's. Kids grow up watching college basketball now from the time they can crawl. His Mom was a Jordan fanatic. UNC had a big advantage from the cradle. UNC also had a huge advantage in recruiting Grant Hill as well, he went the other way. The reality is that this kid had a chance to play for two of the best coaches in the game and he picked the other one. One of his best hoops friend picked K. This is not like a kid choosing between Duke and Virginia or Duke and Indiana- this is Duke and UNC. Duke lost the kid to a great program and a great coach - and I have no affection for UNC but you cannot deny what they have done. I have never seen this kid play and have no idea if he has the ability to carry a team to a championship- hit the shots under pressure- lead his teammates. I have no doubt he is talented- but there are a lot of talented kids- many in the 20's and 30's of their high school ranks. Irving is a talent and could carry a team. Curry is a talent and could carry a team. For all we know, Josh Hairston may have some innate knack for playing coach K D and may turn out to be Shane Battier. You just don't know until they lace em up.

[dukelifer]

Landscapes change in college athletics. But I think that it will take a string of a couple Final 4's and/or a national championship for Duke to return to the platform of the upper echelon programs. Something needs to happen and fairly soon or else Duke will continue to lose out on the most coveted players. And in college basketball, those are the players that often get you to the next level.

Well why did UCLA not get Barnes? They are as relevant as any team in recent memory getting to the FF- including UNC? And they have a track record of creating some outstanding young pros. What about Florida- with as many national championships as UNC in the last few years? Or Kansas? The point is that there are many places to go. This kid's family grew up watching Jordan- they had a chance to send their kid to Jordan's college and by the way- UNC is good. This is about more than getting to the FF.

[Faison1]

Man, that was a tough night's sleep. Harrison's announcement hit me pretty hard. Amongst the many thoughts I had while lying awake:

-How in the world did we lose a kid who surprised K on his birthday last year by being at the UNC game (and looking upset when Duke lost, I might add)?

-What does this say (if anything) about the future of Duke recruiting?

-Are all of Duke's recruits now in serious play with UNC (i.e. Quincy Miller, JP Tokoto) and how will K counter attacks from Roy?

-How will I react when I see Harrison in a UNC uniform? (I'm guessing it will feel like the time my girlfriend started dating a friend of mine: a mix between bitter pain, sadness, and resentment.)

-I feel horribly for K. I know how I feel when I lose a big deal, and it usually takes me at least 24 hours to get over it. So, for K to hear the result yesterday afternoon, then coach a game...well, my respect for him is that much greater.

[hudlow]

Barnes will say to himself...

"I shoulda gone to Duke..."

hud

[AtlBluRew]

let's not get too crazy over this. although there is alot of hype surrounding this kid, he hasn't proven anything yet. let's face it he's not playing against the best competition in iowa. he may turn out to be great or maybe not. let's keep in mind some of the top recruits duke got that didn't exactly pan out. here are a few off the top of my head. i'm sure there are more.

mcroberts
shav
paulus
beard
boateng
thompson
chappelle

also, i think kyrie is going to turn out to be a much more important recruit. look at most of the teams that have a national championship over the years, the common denominator is a great pg. as evidenced by duke's three titles.

I was trying to remember #1 recruits that Duke did get, and your list is missing a kid whose name I can't remember either. He was a Mormon kid with a meddlesome father. He stayed a year, I think, before transferring to Utah. As a remember, he was a player like McBob, tall but who preferred to shoot from the outside. Can anyone remember that kid's name?

[Buckeye Devil]

Well why did UCLA not get Barnes? They are as relevant as any team in recent memory getting to the FF- including UNC? And they have a track record of creating some outstanding young pros. What about Florida- with as many national championships as UNC in the last few years? Or Kansas? The point is that there are many places to go. This kid's family grew up watching Jordan- they had a chance to send their kid to Jordan's college and by the way- UNC is good. This is about more than getting to the FF.

Valid points for this instance. Over the long haul I am not so sure. Carolina has proven king in getting the best players in recent years, several of which were coveted by Duke. But Carolina still can't compare to Ohio State, at least for this class.

[TallMan]

I was trying to remember #1 recruits that Duke did get, and your list is missing a kid whose name I can't remember either. He was a Mormon kid with a meddlesome father. He stayed a year, I think, before transferring to Utah. As a remember, he was a player like McBob, tall but who preferred to shoot from the outside. Can anyone remember that kid's name?

Chris Burgess

[blu62]

As others have said, you never know how players will pan out. Harrison Barnes seems like a nice well spoken kid who would have represented Duke well. I wish him well, but not too well.

[derayb]

1) Don't put too much hope into the decisions of 17/18 year old kids

2) Don't put too much faith into the words of "insiders"

3) No program worth its salt rises or falls based on the recruitment decision of one kid


Harrison Barnes as much as I or anyone on this board hates it is a Tar Heel. Let's work our tails off to get Smith to complete this class and then move on to Miller, Beal, etc. for 2011.