Secret Men's Basketball Preseason Scrimmages

[airowe]

http://community.foxsports.com/goodm..._list_revealed

There were a number of games this weekend played between teams in a closed scrimmage setting. Of particular note, a game yesterday was played between Vanderbilt and UNC in Nashville.

There is rampant specualtion, including this thread on IC, that the boys from Chapel Hill College lost by double digits and had a number of turnovers and had trouble getting the ball into the post. Now, Vandy is not a bad team, and this was just a scrimmage, but after State lost to Richmond in one of their closed gym scrimmages, this masterpiece of a thread came out on IC.

[Olympic Fan]

You are right that the IC thread laughing at State for losing a scrimmage ... coming right after we learn that UNC lost its scrimmage by double digits -- is hilarious.

That said, I suspect that Vanderbilt>Richmond.

But we all knew (or at least strongly suspected) that this year UNC>NC State. The results don't tell us much in that regard ... but maybe do suggest that UNC is not the top 10 team that everybody expects (at least not yet).

FWIW, they are saying over on the Wake boards that Wake Forest had a scrimmage with South Carolina. They seem to agree that South Carolina won the 15-minute game-like scrimmage 32-31, but that in the situational scrimmages that followed, that Wake outscored the 'Cocks.

Just passing that along ...

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

This is the second "secret" scrimmage Vandy's had with Carolina. Last year, it was done in Chapel Hill, and this year in Nashville. UNC "won" that one. Unfortunately (note I'm a Vandy grad), there are several links between the programs. Kevin Stallings is a former Williams assistant at KU and two of VU's assistant coaches are Brad Frederick and King Rice.

I prefer to not think about any Carolina influence on Vandy, however if this helps Vandy continue its recent success in the NCAAs (Jeff Green walked), I'm all for it.

BTW, Vandy should be pretty good this year, so I don't think this necessarily means UNC's going to be off this year.

[Bob Green]

The results don't tell us much in that regard ... but maybe do suggest that UNC is not the top 10 team that everybody expects (at least not yet).

Roy Williams offense requires a dominant point guard. Remember the 2005 National Championship team lost their opening game to Santa Clara when Ray Felton was suspended.

Larry Drew isn't a dominant point guard so Carolina will struggle...at least early. The jury is out on whether or not Drew develops into a legitimate point guard, but it is clear he isn't one at this specific moment in time.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Roy Williams offense requires a dominant point guard. Remember the 2005 National Championship team lost their opening game to Santa Clara when Ray Felton was suspended.

Larry Drew isn't a dominant point guard so Carolina will struggle...at least early. The jury is out on whether or not Drew develops into a legitimate point guard, but it is clear he isn't one at this specific moment in time.

That a very good observation. The general sentiment is that Vandy had the better backcourt.

There is a quote from an anonymous UNC player circulating, "We got smashed".

[Wander]

BTW, Vandy should be pretty good this year, so I don't think this necessarily means UNC's going to be off this year.

Didn't Ogilvy not play? If so, then it really is a bad "loss."

[BD80]

That a very good observation. The general sentiment is that Vandy had the better backcourt.

There is a quote from an anonymous UNC player circulating, "We got smashed".

Eww. (or should I say ewe?) Anonymity. A tar heel's nightmare.

If they have trouble against talented backcourts, I am REALLY going to enjoy the unc/UK game.

[DukeFan78]

are these "situational" scrimmages?

[ACCBBallFan]

That's why you have a pre-season scrimmage, to see where you stand.

Not real surprising considering UNC is breaking in a new PG and a new WF, and Ginyard has no outside shot.

If Drew II continues to struggle my guess is the Heels play Ginyard at PG a la Scheyer in this case to leverage Marcus's defense without also losing an outside shooter, and insert either Strickland or MacDonald at SG, and/or move Henson back to PF and insert Graves at WF.

I say this because UNC system is tough for a PG to pick up quickly and if Drew II is struggling at PG, so would Strickland or McDonald, versus the easier transition to SG.

Being a road game so early in tem binding plays into it too, as it did in reverse for Vandy last year.

My guess is Vandy just zoned UNC.

From what I can tell from ESPN rosters, Vandy returns its whole team from last year and had about 10 guys who played at least 10 MPG last year. Many were freshmen and probably had that boost that often occurs between frosh and soph years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/roster?teamId=238

While Vandy (4th best in SEC-East) is a better team than Richmond (4th best in A-10), both are middle of their respective leagues whereas UNC shares top of ACC and NC State shares bottom.

I see it more as an indication that UNC is young than that Vandy will be all that good. They probably still finish behind UK, TN and UF and have to hold off So Carolina for fourth in their half of SEC.

[ACCBBallFan]

After I wrote this, I read somewhere that Dexter Strickland did not play much in later part of scrimmage because his defense was not up to par, and that Leslie MacDonald took no shots. So unless one of those guys shows something, would not expect Drew II to get the hook as I surmised might happen above.

I view Vandy as a bubble team and attribute it more to UNC youth playing so soon on the road.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

After I wrote this, I read somewhere that Dexter Strickland did not play much in later part of scrimmage because his defense was not up to par, and that Leslie MacDonald took no shots.

I hope they keep that up.

[moonpie23]

http://community.foxsports.com/goodm..._list_revealed


There is rampant specualtion, including this thread on IC, that the boys from Chapel Hill College lost by double digits

"Your access to this site's forums is revoked"

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Has anyone here even seen DrewII play since last season? Anybody on this board seen one bounce of the ball? How can anything be clear just yet?

Conjecture:
–noun 1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.
–verb (used with object) 4. to conclude or suppose from grounds or evidence insufficient to ensure reliability.

Let's at least see him play one game.

[Bob Green]

How can anything be clear just yet?

Because we are all seeing Seriously, it is early November so 99% of posts are comprised of conjecture.

[MarkD83]

On a side note the best comment was that these "secret scrimmages" were like a Monty Python skit "wink, wink". I like that sense of humor.

Keep in mind that Roy is a good coach (yes I am a Duke fan not a UNC apologist) and if UNC did poorly in the "secret scrimmage" it just means that he can get the attention of his team before the real games start.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Because we are all seeing Seriously, it is early November so 99% of posts are comprised of conjecture.

Thanks, now my warped imagination sees a vision of you in those x-ray glasses we saw in the backs of those magazines when we were kids...sipping sake

[striker219]

I can't verify the authenticity of this, saw it on another board. Thought it was interesting, and it seems like a helluva lot of work to fake.

- Drew driving shot missed - VU 0 - UNC 0
- Taylor dunk VU 2 UNC 0
- Drew pass to Ginyard fouled going to hoop - Ginyard is the only one wearing a long sleeve shirt under his jersey
- Ginyard makes the first and misses the second VU 2 UNC 1
- Taylor shot rolls off rim, Deon rebound
- Deon to Drew to Deon to Davis for the quick score VU 2 UNC 3
- Tinsley misses a 3, Davis rebound
- Deon down low, turnaround J is good VU 2 UNC 5
- Vandy foul
- Drew misses on lob to Ed Davis
- Deon with the steal and eventually finished inside VU 2 UNC 7
- Vandy foul blocking
*Vandy starts to full court press
- Drew gets it to Ginyard who drives and Deon cleans up VU 2 UNC 9
- Jenkins scores on some nice Vandy passing VU 4 UNC 9
- Vandy foul inside on Jenkins 16:00 mins to go
- UNC Turnover - Subs: LD, Deon, Ginyard, Davis and John Henson
- Henson fouls Tchiengang who makes last FT - VU 5 UNC 9
- Drew beats full court pressure to Ginyard but blocked by Tchiengang
- Walker misses onehander, Henson rebound
- Drew to Ginyard who turns it over
- Tinsley to Taylor for 3 VU 8 UNC 9
- Drew backdoor quick pass to Ginyard VU 8 UNC 11
- Taylor gets behind UNC D for quick score VU 10 UNC 11
- Drew loses the ball and Taylor takes it in for the slam VU 12 UNC 11
- Drew to Deon to Davis who gets fouled
- Davis misses first, misses second - Zeller in for Deon at 13:55
- Drew makes a dumb foul away from the ball - Tinsley throws ball away
- Drew flys up court to Davis who tries to dunk but fouled from behind - Ginyard goes out and #24 comes on (i just looked it up, Justin Watts)
- Davis misses first, makes second VU 12 UNC 12
- Ezell blocked by Henson, Drew drives but ball goes out on Zeller
- Henson rebound off Ezell 3 attempt, Henson eventually fouled by Charles Hinkle
- Zeller doubled and kicks out but Watts blocked inside
- Darshawn McClellan nails a 3 VU 15 UNC 12
- Drew pass inside and Henson and Davis miss 3-4 tap ins without Vandy touching the ball, Henson fouled
- Subs: Ed Davis for 43Wear, Drew out and Dexter in...Henson airballs first FT, makes 2nd VU 15 UNC 13
- Charles Hinkle 3 pointer VU 18 UNC 13
- Dex to Watts but blocked by Ezell
- John Jenkins 3 pointer VU 21 UNC 13
- TWear spins out of double team and gets fouled. Timeout 10:26 to go - Wear makes first, makes second VU 21 UNC 15
- Dex steal on inbounds, fouled - Dex pass to Watts out of bounds
- Jenkins long shot good, not sure if 3 pointer, I think his foot was on the line VU 23, UNC 15
- Dex to Henson to Watts to Zeller for an easy dunk VU 23 UNC 17
- Dex with the steal and lay in for score VU 23 UNC 19
- Henson knocks ball away on D but turnover on offense: UNC subs Wear twins, Zeller, Dex, Watts
- Dex beats trap, Wear to Wear to Watts who is fouled and misses dunk - Watts misses first, makes 2nd VU 23, UNC 20
- Zeller steal to Dex who gets fouled on the layup, Dex makes first, makes second VU 23, UNC 22 Subs: Watts out Leslie McDonald in 8:17 to go
- Zeller rebound out to Dex with the nice layup VU 23, UNC 24
- UNC clears the lane and Jeff Taylor goes in for the dunk, Zeller backed off for some reason VU 25, UNC 24
- TWear gets doubled inside pass out to Dex nails 3 VU 25, UNC 27
- Tinsley with a nice lob to Ezell with Zeller defending for the lay up VU 27, UNC 27
- Zeller pass to top for Dex who drives for the nice finish VU 27, UNC 29 6:23 to go
- Ezell fouled by McDonald misses first, makes second VU 28, NC 29 UNC Subs: Drew and Deon back in game
- One of the Wears is fouled, DWear shooting 1and1, makes first, makes 2nd VU 28, UNC 31
- Walker drives in but DWear takes the charge, shooting 1and1, misses.
- Beal airballs a 3, Watts throws oob to Wear
- Drew with the steal, DWear to TWear for the slam...nice passing from the twins VU 28, UNC 33
- Ezell gets tripled teamed by Deon and the Wears who crash and cause a walk
- Drew up court quickly but misses reverse lay up...TWear fouls on the other end
- Tinsley drives and passes but Tchiengang called for tripping. 3:53 to go
- Wear to Drew who finds Ed Davis inside for easy lay in VU 28, UNC 35
- Vandy turnover leads to Dex to McDonald and TWear put back VU 28, UNC 37 Subs: Ginyard, Dex, Graves, Zeller and Davis in at 3:09 to go
- Walker to Beal inside for nice pass and finish VU 30, UNC 35
- Dex turnover leads to a Beal open 3-pointer VU 33, UNC 35
- Zeller pass to Graves turnover, but Goulbourne turns it over - Roy yelling loudly at Dex for leaving his man open for the 3
- Great defense by Vandy meant UNC shot clock violation and no shot.
- Beal misses 3, Zeller to Strickland misses layup on the drive and is fouled, Dex makes both VU 33, UNC 37 1:08 to go
- Ezell throws ball away for halfcourt violation on Vandy :57 seconds to go
- UNC lineup Ginyard, Davis, Dex, Zeller, Graves
- Dex to Graves and lay up rolls out, Beal drives fouled before the shot by Graves with 2.7 seconds to go, Beal makes first and misses second VU 34, UNC 37
- Zeller pass to Graves goes out and long last second shot by McClellan is way off.


In the second half the starters are Vandy: Brad Tinsley, Andre Walker, Jermaine Beal, Taylor Jeffrey, Festus Ezell. UNC: Henson, Drew, TWear, Ginyard, Deon.

- Vandy gets ball because UNC won opening tip off
- Henson with the rebound, Drew throws ball away trying to hit Ginyard
* UNC is definitely in some sort of zone...mabye a box-and-1 with Henson following the ball
- Walker hits a one handed runner VU 35, UNC 37
- Henson to Ginyard throws the ball away...sloppy start by UNC
- Henson fouls on the shot by Jeff Taylor misses first makes second VU 36, UNC 37
- Drew to TWear with the nice dump to Deon VU 36, UNC 39
- Deon wraps up for the alternating possession on Andre Walker
- Henson to Drew to Deon, goes off his hands out of bounds
- Walker misses and Drew comes down with rebound, passes to Wear cross line who passes back to Drew - back-Court (that was funny)
Beal to Jenkins for the 3 VU 39, UNC 39 16:35 to go
- Deon takes up strong, Henson put back miss gets fouled, makes both VU 39, UNC 41
- Andre Walker makes 3, Henson was slow to slide over VU 42, UNC 41
- Drew dribbles behind his back out of bounds
- official time out 15:41 Drew out, Dex in
- Jeff Taylor with a big dunk over Henson who had no chance VU 44, UNC 41
- Dex shot is off, Henson fouled on rebound, Henson pass eventually too long to Davis
- Tinsley's shot is off but Ezell get rebound put back VU 46, UNC 41
- On floor: Dex, McDonald, Graves, DWear, Ed Davis
- Pass between Graves and Davis goes out of bounds 13:48 to go
- Jenkins to Tinsley, shot is good VU 48, UNC 41
- Dex goes to the hoop, gets fouled on shot - Roy must have not liked what Dex did at all because he's red-faced and yelling at Dex. He actually pulls him off the court and puts Ginyard in his stead. Maybe he did something I didn't see because Roy is yelling, loud!
- Tinsley pass to Goulbourne for an open 3 is good VU 51, UNC 41 - Roy is super pissed
- McDonald to Davis who is doubled and passes out of bounds...Things going about as bad as they can for UNC
- McClellan to Tchiengang who backs down Davis and gets the roll VU 53, UNC 41
- Davis returns the favor on the other end VU 53, UNC 43
- Davis gets rebound and misses on offense, player down, trying not to land on, Vandy rebound 11:30 to go
- UNC subs: Deon, Ginyard, Zeller, McDonald, Graves
- Ginyard lob to Deon VU 55, UNC 45
- Tinsley drives, Ginyard blocks Tinsley makes both FTs VU 57, UNC 45
- Deon with nice drop turnaround lay in VU 57, UNC 47
*UNC back in man to man D
- Ginyard goes down, Marc Campbell in, shot clock expires on Vandy
- Campbell finds Graves who makes a 3 VU 57, UNC 50
- Jermaine Beal with a nice spot up jumper, gets the roll VU 59, UNC 50
- Campbell pass intercepted, Zeller fouls on D 9:12 to go
- Jermaine Beal hits another 3, VU 62, UNC 50
UNC subs: Ginyard, McDonald, Zeller, Henson, Deon
- Ginyard, Zeller, Deon, ball knocked out after scrum, Vandy ball
- Jermaine Beal hits yet another 3, VU 65, UNC 50
- Deon to Ginyard for 3, VU 65, UNC 53
- Jermain Beal wastes no time hitting another 3, VU 68, UNC 53
- Ginyard drive, dumps to Zeller who promptly looses it out of bounds 7:22 to go
UNC subs: Ginyard, Deon, Zeller, Henson, Watts
- Pick and roll run to perfection Charles Hinkle scores VU 70, UNC 53
- Deon's turnaround is short and bounces off
- Jermaine Beal nails yet another 3 from about the same spot VU 73, UNC 53
- Deon fouled on the dunk, makes FT, VU 73, UNC 56, 6:16 to go, Drew back in
- Charles Hinkle nails a long 3, VU 76, UNC 56
- Zeller fouled and misses 1st of 1and1
- Ball knocked away by Watts, Hinkle rebounds
- Deon block on Beal, Watts driving and fouled...sloppy play
- Watts misses first, hits the second VU 76, UNC 57
- Beal misses 3, Watts to Zeller off the glass VU 76, UNC 59
UNC: Zeller, Drew, Watts and Wears - DWear is at SF, TWear is PF
- Drew's lob is too tall for Zeller OOB
- Jermain Beal his his 20th 3 of the 2nd half it seems VU 79, UNC 59
- Wears pass knocked away, Vandy turnover
- Drew to Zeller off the glass VU 79, UNC 61
- Tchiengang shot no good, Watts driving and fouled, makes first, makes second VU 79, UNC 63, 2:34 to go
UNC: Drew, McDonald, Zeller, DWear, Deon
- Deon rebound, DWear drives and blocked, fouled, misses first FT, makes second VU 79, UNC 64
- McDonald picks up Vandy turnover misses lay up, John Jenkins makes loong 3, VU 82, UNC 64
- Drew inside to Zeller nice pass, VU 82, UNC 66, 1:24 to go
UNC: McDonald, Zeller, Deon, Drew and DWear
- Deon takes it away, stripped and fouled, makes first, misses second VU 82, UNC 67
- Drew rebound fouled :54 seconds to go, makes first makes second VU 82, UNC 69
- UNC ball with 19 seconds to go, Drew to Zeller, lay in rolls off the rim as time expires.

'Final' Score: Vanderbilt 82, UNC 69 (roughly)

[sagegrouse]

This isn't just fodder for the message boards; it's fodder for the coach.

If I were Ol' Roy [shudder], this is just what I would want to happen. He has - TA-DA - the Defending National Champions. Only, he has lost his top four players in terms of minutes and points. I am sure he has delighted to have the opportunity to remind THIS team that it hasn't done anything and that it's time to go to work.

sagegrouse

[whereinthehellami]

LMAO. Spin away smurfs. Early in the season and all that powder blue reasoning. They lost pretty bad to Vandy. Drew is going to be a weakness for them until Marshall comes in and I'm not sure if he will much of an improvement. Perspective can be tough to swallow when its on the end of a boot.

[Olympic Fan]

I'd just like to add one point about the UNC scrimmage loss. Several posters have called it a "road game" for the Heels.

Well, while it was played in Nashville, it was played in a virtually empty gym (I understand that some high school coaches were allowed to attend) without the students and other screaming fans that make it tough to play on the road (and subtly influence the refs -- every team gets more calls at home than on the road).

I don't think the location of the scrimmage had much (if any) impact on the outcome.

I do agree that UNC is a young team that has plenty of time to work out its kinks. If you remember, the 2005-06 UNC team that was even more inexperienced than this one needed a desperation 3-pointer by David Noel to beat Gardner Webb in its opener at home ... then finished the regular season by upsetting No. 1 Duke in Cameron.

That team did not have a dominant point guard -- freshman Bobby Frasier handled the job, but he wasn't really a point guard and he didn't have the explosive athleticism of Felton or Lawson. They weren't a dominant team that year, but they did alright.

I guess in summary, I'm saying that while some of the national perceptions of UNC seem to be inflated, I wouldn't swing too far the other way and think that they are going to be mediocre.