Dukies in the NBA - 2009-10

[ElSid]

Who in the NBA who did not attend college is great at defense? Dwight Howard?

Exclude international players.

I was speculating tonight that college is key for developing defensive mentality after watching Amar'e phone it in on defense tonight.

Gotta also think the college style practice and college style game physically develops people for the league better. A few people are really ready to play right away, but the type of game they have to endure, gotta think sticking around makes there bodies more resilient over time, vs. the opposite argument of getting the most out of it before it fails.

Are there stats out there that support my speculation? Not even sure how to structure the investigating.

[AZLA]

Amare has been horrible at defense, especially tonight and the fact that he publicly called out Odom for being "lucky" the prior game made Amare's performance all the more laughable. I had written off Los Suns this year, but based on Gentry's leadership and Grant Hill's example -- they improved their defense only to have it erode against the extremely tall Lakers. Nash has never been mistaken for a defensive player either, but he has always had a laminated free pass for not guarding the point. Which is unfortunate, because Famar and Springboard Shannon Brown are very good and exploit the lapses on defense. It's great to see Grant get hot on offense and for the most part, try his best to contain Kobe. Defensively, Grant is never really caught out of position, he blocks passing lanes and gives help. Whereas Amare constantly gets caught looking and is late on help. Someone his size and athleticism really should have more blocks and influence the game defensively. Kobe did have a sweet back-dribble reverse on Grant for a key score, but still, Grant still kept him in front of him. That kind of match-up makes me wish I could see Grant circa '96 against Kobe today. If only Hot Tub Time Machine were true...

[theAlaskanBear]

Who in the NBA who did not attend college is great at defense? Dwight Howard?

Exclude international players.

kevin garnett
kobe bryant
jermaine o'neal
lebron james
josh smith
etc

It has nothing to do with college, and everything to do with coaching and personal determination.

[SilkyJ]

Who in the NBA who did not attend college is great at defense? Dwight Howard?

I was speculating tonight that college is key for developing defensive mentality after watching Amar'e phone it in on defense tonight.

100% agree with the below. Amare was coached by D'antoni for much of his career who is, shall we say, an offensive minded coach.

kevin garnett
kobe bryant
jermaine o'neal
lebron james
josh smith
etc

It has nothing to do with college, and everything to do with coaching and personal determination.

[CDu]

kevin garnett
kobe bryant
jermaine o'neal
lebron james
josh smith
etc

It has nothing to do with college, and everything to do with coaching and personal determination.

Yup. Kendrick Perkins (though not as flashy) is heading in that direction as well for Boston. He's more of a bruising type of defender, but he takes defense seriously and is on the floor more for what he can provide defensively rather than offensively.

I completely agree with the last sentence you wrote.

[ElSid]

Well, to me, I would have to say that Amare's free agent value takes a big hit. He will never play defense. I think it's likely he's passed some critical point where he can't possibly learn it. His lack of defense is a huge liability to the Suns.

[moonpie23]

kobe/gasol put on a clinic...


as much as i despise BOTH the celts and the lakers, it's gonna be a helluva matchup...

[theAlaskanBear]

Well, to me, I would have to say that Amare's free agent value takes a big hit. He will never play defense. I think it's likely he's passed some critical point where he can't possibly learn it. His lack of defense is a huge liability to the Suns.

My opinion: Its all about habit and game conditioning. What I mean is that Amare has been in the league so many years, he has habitualized bad defense, so that the pro game, which is so dependent upon instinct and speed, this defensive instinct is full of bad habits. The amount of time it will take to habitualize good instinctive defensive habits will likely take him through the end of his career.

This is why good coaching is so important, if you can get to players when they are young and rapidly developing players, you can habitualize good defense and make it instinct. If you get to players further in their career, it is much harder to break bad court habits because they are second nature and instinctive.

So Amare COULD learn to be a very good defensive player, but it will likely take him years to change his game. Now, he is so gifted athletically, maybe it wont take him that long. But the goal of coaching is to make good habits and smart decisions instinctive on the court, because your split second reaction time makes all the difference between a charging and blocking foul, a block or a foul, or covering the inches of space Kobe needs to get off a shot after a screen or pick and roll.

Im not a coach, but thats how I feel about it.

[hq2]

So let's get back to Dukies in the NBA, the thread topic. J.J. was O.K. last night with 9 points (a typical J.J. outing), but the Magic still got wiped. Shelden had 5 minutes, and did little, with one board. Big Baby is clearly well ahead of him now; he 17 points last night and had a major impact on the game with a number of heady plays.

Shelden's problem is that he doesn't have a good NBA jump shot; unlike Baby, he just can't hit it consistently. On the other hand, his all-around play has been good enough for him to find a home here in Boston. If he could get a quality jumper, I think he would get more minutes.

[basket1544]

Grant had a great first half (his plus/minus and Robin Lopez's are outstanding).

[Newton_14]

I have to side with Elsid on this one. I have always felt players (stars included) will be better in the end if they attended college for at least 2 to 3 years. Especially on the defensive end, with regards to both individual defense and in particular team defense. College is the last place where true fundamentals are taught.

I respect the opinion of those of you who feel it does not matter, but that is my take. Jordan, Bird, Magic, all great players, and all learned a lot about the game and how to play it in college.

Look at JJ. He learned how to play individual and team defense while at Duke. Defense is what got him into the rotation with the Magic. Had he skipped college there is no way he makes it in the NBA. I know in the context of the discussion you guys are mainly talking about stars, but JJ is an example to me, of an ordinary NBA player (not All Star Level), that greatly benefited from college instruction.

I do believe it applies to the great players as well.

[BattierD12]

Finally, a competitive series. Wish my Magic had a taken a page from the Suns level of play today. Props to Stoudamire for really taking control of the game (42 pts and 10 rebounds i think) as well as Robin Lopez for providing some terrific minutes.

First time this playoffs that the Lakers lose with both Kobe and Gasol scoring more than 20 points.

[roywhite]

Finally, a competitive series. Wish my Magic had a taken a page from the Suns level of play today. Props to Stoudamire for really taking control of the game (42 pts and 10 rebounds i think) as well as Robin Lopez for providing some terrific minutes.

First time this playoffs that the Lakers lose with both Kobe and Gasol scoring more than 20 points.

As one who generally prefers college basketball to the NBA version, I have to admit that was a very well-played, entertaining game between the Lakers and Suns. Good ball movement and offensive execution.

It's great to see Grant and his teammates make a run at this.

[SilkyJ]

A much better game by the Magic as well tonight and JJ played very well, knocking down several big 3s in the 2nd half and playing his usual good D...4 TOs though. He scored 10 straight for the Magic at one point (according to the announcers) and one of them went so far as to call him the best player on the floor for the Magic, though I wouldn't have gone that far. His pick and rolls weren't as effective as they were earlier in the year/series, but a lot of that is the great Celtics' D. He was +14 for the game, leading all players.

Brandon Bass also contributed quality minutes and if 'Shard reverts back to himself from games 1-3, I'd play Bass 20 minutes.

Glad we still have 2 dukies truly in the thick of it. Let's see if Orlando can't win one at home.

On a related note, Vince Carter is a complete and utter bum.

[basket1544]

So happy that the Suns and the Magic could make these a set of competitive series. Grant and JJ are playing good team ball and great defense for their teams. I was so upset when SVG pulled JJ for the defensive end during the overtime. I loved it when the announcers called JJ the best player on the floor for the Magic. (Loved it even more when I realized that Carter was on the court at the time.) Hopefully both can win their next games too. Just take it one game at a time to stave off elimination.

[theAlaskanBear]

So happy that the Suns and the Magic could make these a set of competitive series. Grant and JJ are playing good team ball and great defense for their teams. I was so upset when SVG pulled JJ for the defensive end during the overtime. I loved it when the announcers called JJ the best player on the floor for the Magic. (Loved it even more when I realized that Carter was on the court at the time.) Hopefully both can win their next games too. Just take it one game at a time to stave off elimination.

Yeah, the announcers for the Magic-Celtic series have been giving JJ props the whole series. Yesterday he came in and scored 10 straight Magic points, points they NEEDED as they were losing the lead in the 4th.

And someone already pointed it out, SVG sat JJ in OT (he probably needed the rest, played 30+ minutes) Barnes botched the Allen assignment.

[RPS]

On a related note, Vince Carter is a complete and utter bum.

"I found Vince Carter. He was on the milk carton in my refrigerator."

-- Kevin McHale on NBA-TV talking about Carter's no-show performance against the Celtics

[Billy Dat]

RE: College and defense

I was thinking about this when the All NBA Defense team was named:

Dwight Howard, Orlando
Rajon Rondo, Boston
LeBron James, Cleveland
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers
Gerald Wallace, Charlotte

This group played 3 years of college combined. These teams are determined by the 30 head coaches.

[SilkyJ]

I was so upset when SVG pulled JJ for the defensive end during the overtime.

And someone already pointed it out, SVG sat JJ in OT (he probably needed the rest, played 30+ minutes) Barnes botched the Allen assignment.

Barnes/Lewis did screw up that play on D, but JJ did get burned by Pierce one play earlier for a dunk (he may have been tired, having played like 15 straight minutes or something and chasing Ray Allen threw screens most of that time).

I thought the dumbest thing the Magic did on D was switch on the Rondo/Pierce screens when Rondo was handling the ball. WHY?!? Rondo is not a threat to launch a 3 off a screen, so have Jameer go under the screen instead of switching to Pierce and handing the Celtics a mismatch. I couldn't understand that the whole game...then I remembered SVG has pulled a Mike Brown this whole series...

"I found Vince Carter. He was on the milk carton in my refrigerator."

-- Kevin McHale on NBA-TV talking about Carter's no-show performance against the Celtics

HAHA. Quote of the day!

[theAlaskanBear]

Barnes/Lewis did screw up that play on D, but JJ did get burned by Pierce one play earlier for a dunk (he may have been tired, having played like 15 straight minutes or something and chasing Ray Allen threw screens most of that time).

I thought the dumbest thing the Magic did on D was switch on the Rondo/Pierce screens when Rondo was handling the ball. WHY?!? Rondo is not a threat to launch a 3 off a screen, so have Jameer go under the screen instead of switching to Pierce and handing the Celtics a mismatch. I couldn't understand that the whole game...then I remembered SVG has pulled a Mike Brown this whole series...



HAHA. Quote of the day!

Yeah, the announcers were hammering SVG about the switching, until Jeff stepped in to defend his brother and say there are no good options. I wouldn't go as far as to say he pulled a Mike Brown...

And also, lets give some credit to the Celtics. They step in and just dominate defensively. Doc Rivers deserves a lot of credit for preparing the Celtics to smash through Cleveland and Orlando.