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  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Lost 4/25 (spoilers)

    Ok, I'm lost. Another good episode. What do you guys think about that "they found the plane and there were no survivors."??? I did not see that coming. Also, I was somewhat surprised to see Patchy show up, though I had wondered about whether he was really dead and whether the fence harmed people, but I had thought I must be wrong. I am starting to question all that I thought I had figured out.
    Last edited by BuschDevil; 04-25-2007 at 11:46 PM. Reason: oops.
    -BuschDevil

    "...Man, who even now finds scarce breathing room on this vast globe, cannot retire from the Old World to some yet undiscovered continent, and wait for the slow action of such causes to replace, by a new creation, the Eden he has wasted".
    -George Perkins Marsh (1864)

  2. #2
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    Lost 4/25

    First off, I was legitimately surprised to see Mikhail again. I don't know why - nothing ever seems "normal" on the island. But...it looked to me his brains were pretty much scrambled and fried a couple weeks back there.

    Can't figure out what's up with Juliet just yet - it seemed pretty obvious that she was trying to get info on Sun - and that she already knew Sun was preggers. I don't believe the whole "mystery" of the island has to do with fertility issues, but the Others certainly are interested in that subject.

    Maybe the weirdest part of this epsiode was when parachute chick (or is it RPC?) told Hurley that Flight 815 was found and all the passengers were dead. I know early on in Season one, there was some speculation that the Losties were no longer alive and instead in some kind of purgatory. I seriously doubted that theory from the beginning, and don't put much stock in it now, but with RPC's revelation tonight....it does make one wonder. I really can't wrap my brain around the idea that the producers would jerk us around like that (what's next, are we gonna wake up and find Bobby is in the shower?), but if the Others, or someone, were able to stage a fake crash with bodies and all, that would explain why no one appears to be looking for them/trying to rescue them.

    I need to think about this episode some more, but overall I liked it. I especially appreciated the fact that they didn't leave us hanging with regard to RPC. I was really afraid they'd focus on Locke or something this week and not mention her at all.

  3. #3
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
    I need to think about this episode some more, but overall I liked it. I especially appreciated the fact that they didn't leave us hanging with regard to RPC. I was really afraid they'd focus on Locke or something this week and not mention her at all.
    Next week's previews show Locke after apparently kidnapping Ben. He is trying to get Sawyer to kill Ben.

    The RPC's statement about Flight 815 suggests a corollary to what some have thought -- that some sort of time warp is involved. The possibility of a false crash site staged by The Others is also a possibility, but not one that I like.

    After Juliet goes back in and records her report (to Ben?) after she ends the report she makes a pretty strong statement to show her displeasure with whoever she is reporting to. The writers are jerking us around more than a little bit on her intentions. What's next?

  4. #4
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    Thumbs up Lost 4/25

    I liked the episode a lot, and at the end thought "Wow! I didn't see that coming." Purgatory? A conspiracy by Penny & Co. to make them think they are dead? Why?

    Too bad Juliet didn't leave the tape recorder on when she said "Ben, I hate you." He probably knows that anyway.

    Next week's preview looks pretty good - lots of Locke action!
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    Next week's previews show Locke after apparently kidnapping Ben. He is trying to get Sawyer to kill Ben.
    Semi-spoiler about next week's episode... highlight the text to read. I won't give it all away, but this spoiler will make you think about the above comment:

    In the preview, Locke does not say "I took Ben." He says, "I took him from Ben's tent." Think about the difference in those two statements. Who would Locke want to kidnap and kill?

    And why would Locke want Sawyer to help him kill whoever it is? Who would Sawyer also want to kill?


    Ok, spoilers done.

    -Jason "now, to comment on the episode and not on the previews" Evans

  6. #6
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    Purgatory

    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    I liked the episode a lot, and at the end thought "Wow! I didn't see that coming." Purgatory? A conspiracy by Penny & Co. to make them think they are dead? Why?
    No way it is a conspiracy by Penny. She's trying to find Desmond. Why would she cover up what happened to 815? Plus, as far as wee know she does not know 815 is tied to Desmond at all. She's merely searching for her boyfriend who got lost at sea. I think it could be a setup by Dharma or The Others (who are not one and the same, IMO) to keep anyone from searching for the survivors, but it is not something cooked up by Penny.

    I may be wrong, but I believe the producers/writers have said several times that the Island is not purgatory. The purgatory talk really got going when Boone and Shannon died and again with the death of Eko because each of those characters was seen as someone who were flawed and then died right after "fixing" their flaw (almost like they resolved their issue and then go to move on to heaven). Heck, you could make an argument that the utter failure of Paulo and Nicki to resolve their issues led to them being sent to hell (burried alive!).

    Still, I think the purgatory answer is such a crappy one that there is no way the show would go that way. Plus, this page (http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Purgatory) discusses it pretty thoroughly and lays out all the times the show has debunked that theory.

    Plus, how did they get Juliet to purgatory? Did they kill her? And where did Michael and Walt go? On the other hand, the inability to have babies in purgatory makes some sense. But, why would Ben get cancer in purgatory?

    -Jason "We've seen Ben and the others interract too much with the real world for me to think purgatory is an answer" Evans

  7. #7
    Such a great episode...

    Russian dude- "Nothing on this island stays buried" and Locke's ability to walk, Rose's recovery and the uberfertility on this island clearly demonstrates ridiculous healing powers. It's a bit much, but hopefully they'll explain how to recover from bleeding out of your ears. Maybe the fence's relation to the smoke monster also allows it to create illusions? I also love how he tried to steal the phone: "You wouldn't respect me if I didn't try."

    Fertility- Interesting how Jin's father might not biologically be related (maybe he has his own fertility issues?). Also, saying fertility is increased 5x and Juliet mentioning Kate... Sawyer might be well on his way to a second kid... although I can't imagine them putting a fake belly on Kate (she's really just too hot).

    RPC- Flight 815 found and no survivors?! WHAT?! Ridiculous plot twist I never thought of... sadly, RPC will probably die (smoke monster or something on the way back) and we don't figure out that mystery for a long time, nor her connection to Desmond. I'm assuming there's some sort of time warp... maybe it has to do with the exploding hatch and Desmond's space-time continuum. And has anyone figured out what she ACTUALLY said to Russian dude when he said she thanked him?

    Predictions/potential spoilers- Clearly Locke kidnaps his Dad and wants Sawyer to kill him. Sawyer takes the bag off of the head, realizes it is the original Sawyer he wanted to kill in the first place. Interesting internal moral debate ensues, good triumphs, Sawyer doesn't kill him. Blah.

    Hurley= priceless. "No one knows we're here!" *POW! Flare gun* "Oops."
    and dialing the broken phone, ".... Mom?"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post

    I may be wrong, but I believe the producers/writers have said several times that the Island is not purgatory.
    No, this is true - that's one of the few theories that they've out and out debunked if memory serves. My money is on a Dharma/Mittelos cover-up. We've seen suggestions that the island is not quite as isolated from the real world as you'd think - for example, Ben's communications with "Richard" re: Juliet's sister, and his being able to play Jack a recording of the Red Sox winning the WS.

    It seems that it would easily be within their power to crash a plane with Flight 815's markings and arrange it so that the bodies were burned badly enough that a positive ID was impossible. They would obviously have a vested interest in keeping search and rescue teams away from the island.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I may be wrong, but I believe the producers/writers have said several times that the Island is not purgatory. The purgatory talk really got going when Boone and Shannon died and again with the death of Eko because each of those characters was seen as someone who were flawed and then died right after "fixing" their flaw (almost like they resolved their issue and then go to move on to heaven). Heck, you could make an argument that the utter failure of Paulo and Nicki to resolve their issues led to them being sent to hell (burried alive!).

    Still, I think the purgatory answer is such a crappy one that there is no way the show would go that way. Plus, this page (http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Purgatory) discusses it pretty thoroughly and lays out all the times the show has debunked that theory.

    I also recall that the producers of Lost have flat-out denied all the cheap, deus-ex-machina-style possibilities (Purgatory, it's all a dream, time warps, it's the future and they're the only people left, etc.). I might try to dig up some links on that later. You can certainly rule out almost all of those possibilities if you remember that the episode where the hatch blew up concluded with the dudes at the Russian polar station recording the electro-magnetic disturbance and then contacting Penny (Desmond's ex?-girlfriend). I took this when I saw it as signaling from the producers that Lost's timeline is contemporary and that the island is in the "real" world.

    Regarding the "no survivors" thing, I took this as far less shocking of a revelation than Patchy still running around. Ultimately, "no survivors" doesn't really mean much except that the real world MAYBE found part of the plane, and nobody alive. It doesn't really mean they found bodies or anything like that. The characters acted really shocked, which could just as easily be read as them realizing that the real world is in no way looking for them.

  10. #10
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by blublood View Post
    My money is on a Dharma/Mittelos cover-up.
    Mine too...

  11. #11
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    Anyone speak Itallian to know what the Random Parachute Chick (RPC) was saying that Patchy translated? At one point she clearly said something signficant and his translation was "she said thank you." Uhhhh, I doubt it.

    I was a bit bothered by Jin's mom's intial meeting with Sun. Sun's movements were a buit too random. It was a bit too convenient for Sun to sit on a bench right next to the woman who was blackmailing her.

    Anyone want to speculate on the significance of that flashback? Was it to demonstrate Sun's love of Jin so she does not feel bad to be condemned to death for having his baby? I am not sure what else it could be. It was nice backstory, but did not relate to the actions of the character in the episode very much.

    Also, has anyone thought about whether Sun would die if she had an abortion/miscarriage? She and the baby are both going to die anyway (if we believe Julliet). What is the point of continuing the pregnancy if neither one of them will live.

    -Jason "everyone think it is a pretty safe bet that Kate is preggers, right?" Evans

  12. #12
    I read somewhere else that RPC told Patches "I am not alone" in Portuguese. Therefore-- she's an Other? She tells Mikhail there is another Other that landed somewhere else on the island. He comes running to her because of the flare (or he was expecting her and also saw her blinking light go down). Makes sense... since Mikhail was the communications dude, and she seemed to have a hard time finding the island w/ the helicopter going down and she has the sat. phone. Mikhail tries to take the phone because it was intended for him to resume communications. She has the picture of Desmond because she's bringing in his biographical info for the others to update themselves with. Or maybe Penny has somehow contacted the Others to make a deal for Desmond?

    I also stand by my earlier comment that Kate won't be pregnant simply because they are not going to waste her amazing body with a fake belly.

    Wow, Lost would NOT be the same if they made it 10 years ago without the help of DVRs and the internet for viewers to carefully dissect it.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by dukeblueyes View Post
    I read somewhere else that RPC told Patches "I am not alone" in Portuguese. Therefore-- she's an Other?
    According to Lostpedia, Naomi, the woman who parachuted from the helicopter before it crashed, said something that "sounds like 'Eu não estou só' which is Portuguese (spoken with a Brazilian accent) for 'I am not alone.'" I think it's likely that Naomi is part of a team of Portuguese-speaking rescuers (the people in the arctic station at the end of season 2 were also speaking Portuguese) searching for Desmond and working for Penny Widmore. It's also likely that the helicopter took off from a yacht parked somewhere in the South Pacific that also has other members of Naomi's team. I think that's what she meant by "I am not alone"--that she is part of a group of people and there are more like her.

  14. #14
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    The Island may not be a Catholic purgatory, but they are certainly hinting at Greek mythology in which the Island is Hades and perhaps an entry point to Tartarus. There's a body of water to cross (River Styx) and some people who can go back and forthe between the worlds (various Gods as was as Charon) but which most people simply cannot go back. We've got Penelope, the faithful wife, and a likely Odysseus, a Cyclops, Ascalupeus (sp?)--the doctor character; and Oceanus (the mother of all bodies of water). Titans would figure in, and the mythology is crammed with all sorts of confused parentage, and parents turning on their chidlren, and severe punishment for transgressions that are either not the fault of the child or are fated by parental error or reflect a moral failing.

    Maybe the mythologic stuff is just meant to deepen our associations and to give them some ready made structure, but I'm thinking they used it to create a modern day mythology even if it's not a 1:1 correspondence.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    The Island may not be a Catholic purgatory, but they are certainly hinting at Greek mythology in which the Island is Hades and perhaps an entry point to Tartarus.
    To further support your theory, we know from the blast door map that the Smoke Monster is referred to as "Cerberus."

    I think what's going on here is that the writers use a lot of allusions to Greek mythology, in addition to drawing from many other traditions with archetypes, including the Old Testament, classical literature, and enlightenment philosophy.

  16. #16
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    Disappointing Episode

    I don't know why people were so high on this episode. It seems like all they have to do is throw a couple of zingers out there - such as Patchy not being dead and there being no survivors on 815, for people to love it . Don't get me wrong, those are nice thought provoking plot twists, but the writers/producers were sloppy on this one in my opinion. I actually thought this was the worst episode of this season - 3B. It reverted back to a pattern of poor writing and ridiculous story development because so much of it seemed forced or unbelievable.

    First of all, Kate tells Sun that the Others took Claire for "research purposes". Why wasn't this immediately communicated to the whole group? Why doesn't the whole group demand more information from Juliet? Instead, Sun immediately confronts Juliet and demands to know what happens to pregnant women on the island. So Juliet tells her that they die because Sun demanded so forcefully. Why hasn't anyone else demanded to know more about the Others, what is going on on the island, the monster, etc.? Apparently if they demanded to know forcefully, Juliet would tell them everything.

    Next, why was Sun so suspicious of Jack asking about how she's feeling? What reason does she have to think Jack has any ulterior motives?

    Then, knowing everything she knows about the Others, her apparent great suspicion of them and what their motives are, why does Sun agree in the middle of the night to go alone to some bunker with Juliet? She's suspicious of Jack so much that she won't answer his questions, but she'll go with Juliet?

    Now about the Patchy part of the episode - first of all, he's alive - big surprise, but hard to imagine that Locke, Kate, Sayid did not check his pulse after the fence incident. Maybe he wasn't dead and the island has great healing powers as Patchy suggests (if, so why did Boone die and why was Ben in need of a surgeon?) but if he was killed by the fence, can it resurrect the dead? If so, are Mr. Eko, Shannon, Ana Lucia, Ethan, Goodwin, Paolo and Nikki coming back? I guess we can assume he wasn't really dead, but that still leaves the Boone question.

    And he shows up because he was obviously tracking/looking for the new arriver(s). Charlie, Desmond Jin and Hurley are aware that Patchy is dangerous - tried to kill Sayid, has a lot to hide, etc. - and thought that he was killed by Locke but they just accept Desmond's demands that they 1) allow him to treat RPC, and 2) let him leave? Who are these people? They've been terrorized by the Others for months and then they just agree to be diplomatic with him? By the way, he was ready to kill Jin. Then, after he steals the phone, they still let him go? Wasn't the right approach, save her life or you're dead, and when you do save her life, you're coming with us?

    I just can't stand when the writers have the characters on the show act inconsistently with logic because it's necessary to move the plot a certain way - figure out another way to get to the plot point you need to.

    I know this has pretty much been confirmed but RPC definitely says the Portuguese equivalent of the Spanish No Estoy Solo - I am not alone. I knkew that's what she said right as it happened.

    Finally, while I thought the flashback was mostly filler, at least we did learn why Jin had to start working for Sun's father. We also see the further development of father issues for two more characters.

  17. #17
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    I'm not even sure why they needed to go in the middle of the night. The entire camp could have gone as a parade, and J could still have left the message. Of course, we still have the option of Jack checking J's ultrasound now that Sun knows where the machine is.

    As for the rest of the inconsistencies:
    Jack has been acting weird since the football incident. His questions of Sun seemed a little off to me as well.

    Juliet told Sun because she wanted to get the ultrasound. Not sure why she hasn't been tortured, but jack is still the group leader, and I don't think the group has been adequately primed to rip off the fingernails of a doctor who is "under his protection." Just insisting wouldn't have done th etrick unless she wanted something.

    I'm not sure the Others are all that easy to kill. If Patches is the equivalent of a Cyclops, for example, he might have been faking, which would bring in the Trojan Horse thing. When his brains burst, plenty of people might have not checked the pulse--he sure looked dead to me.

    I think patches was definitely looking for the newcomer--for all we know she is an Other whose mission is to kill Desmond, not find him. It's possible that the fight was a ruse, that Patches intended to help out and get close and check out the situation but couldn't simply offer his services. None of the good guys was a medic, and they were watching the hot young thing bleed out, and someone offered to help--I'd probably let him. As for killing the Russian guy, that is easier said than done. He could outfight any one of them, and they lacked a weapon, and none of them was Sayid.

    I am a little surprised that Hurley didn't understand, "I am not alone" and why would he set off a flare unless he is reaaally stupid.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. synellinden View Post
    Why doesn't the whole group demand more information from Juliet? Instead, Sun immediately confronts Juliet and demands to know what happens to pregnant women on the island. So Juliet tells her that they die because Sun demanded so forcefully. Why hasn't anyone else demanded to know more about the Others, what is going on on the island, the monster, etc.? Apparently if they demanded to know forcefully, Juliet would tell them everything.

    Then, knowing everything she knows about the Others, her apparent great suspicion of them and what their motives are, why does Sun agree in the middle of the night to go alone to some bunker with Juliet? She's suspicious of Jack so much that she won't answer his questions, but she'll go with Juliet?
    We saw Sayid and Sawyer demand info from Juliet a couple episodes ago and Juliet refused. I imagine that other folks have asked her and she just shrugs them off. Plus, she is sorta under Jack's protection around camp.

    As for why she spoke to Sun-- it was in her interest to talk to Sun and earn Sun's trust. It was the only way to lure Sun to the medical hatch where she could conduct some secret experiement or whatever on her.

    Sun goes with Juliet because Juliet can answer some important questions about Sun's pregnancy. Sure, it was a risk but we are talking about a life or death piece of info for Sun. Hardly a surprise that Sun agreed to go along.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. synellinden View Post
    Now about the Patchy part of the episode - first of all, he's alive - big surprise, but hard to imagine that Locke, Kate, Sayid did not check his pulse after the fence incident. Maybe he wasn't dead and the island has great healing powers as Patchy suggests (if, so why did Boone die and why was Ben in need of a surgeon?) but if he was killed by the fence, can it resurrect the dead? If so, are Mr. Eko, Shannon, Ana Lucia, Ethan, Goodwin, Paolo and Nikki coming back? I guess we can assume he wasn't really dead, but that still leaves the Boone question.

    And he shows up because he was obviously tracking/looking for the new arriver(s). Charlie, Desmond Jin and Hurley are aware that Patchy is dangerous - tried to kill Sayid, has a lot to hide, etc. - and thought that he was killed by Locke but they just accept Desmond's demands that they 1) allow him to treat RPC, and 2) let him leave? Who are these people? They've been terrorized by the Others for months and then they just agree to be diplomatic with him? By the way, he was ready to kill Jin. Then, after he steals the phone, they still let him go? Wasn't the right approach, save her life or you're dead, and when you do save her life, you're coming with us?
    I agree that the handling of Patchy was sorta strange, but you took it too far. If you recall, they tried your scenario of threatening to kill Patchy if he did nto help out. His response was "I've already died once this week." Clearly, he was only going to help on his own terms.

    Still, when he tried to steal the sat phone, Desmond should have said, "our deal is now null and void. You try to steal from us, we take you captive." Granted, that would have been difficult with them all being needed to bring RPC back to camp, but it should have at least been a consideration.

    I don't recall what I said earlier about this episode, but I did not think it was all that great. It was good and had some nice moments, but it was clearly one of the worst of the 2nd half of the season. Part of my lackluster feelings about it are that Lost has been fabulous the past half-dozen episodes or so and I am eagerly anticipating the final four.

    Still, even a so-so Lost episode is better than darn-near anything else on TV. My wife commented last night as we were watching Jericho and right after we got done watching Gray's, "why does everything on TV other than Lost suck so much?" I mentioned The Office and How I Met your Mother and she said, "fine, why do all that dramas not named Lost suck so much." To that I had no response.

    -Jason "gonna watch Survivor tonight" Evans

  19. #19
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    The Knife

    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    and they lacked a weapon
    Did you see the huge hunting knife Desmond had? Jin subdued him during their fight with a roundhouse kick. They could have killed him if they wanted to.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    Jack has been acting weird since the football incident. His questions of Sun seemed a little off to me as well.
    They played some really scary music as Jack was approaching Sun too. I am not sure if it was to make us think someone bad was coming up on her or if it was to hint us that Jack is not a good guy anymore.

    Ben's manipulation is a huge theme of this season. I would not put it past the show to have turned Jack to the Others for a while, only to redeem him early next season (I bet we get confirmation that Jack is on the Others side in the season finale).

    -Jason "I'd say there is a solid 40% chance Jack is now an Other" Evans

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