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  1. #1

    We're in the wrong division

    Have you looked at the ACC standings this morning? The difference between the Coastal and Atlantic Divisions is astounding:

    Atlantic:
    Wake Forest 2-1 4-2
    Maryland 1-1 2-4
    Boston Col 2-2 4-2
    Clemson 1-2 2-3
    NC State 0-2 3-3
    FSU 0-3 2-4

    Coastal
    Virginia Tech 3-0 5-1
    Virginia 1-0 2-3
    Ga Tech 3-1 5-1
    Miami 2-1 4-1
    Duke 1-1 3-3
    UNC 0-2 4-2

    The three best teams in the ACC -- by a wide margin -- are all in the Coastal (VPI, Miami and Ga Tech). I'm not sure who should be No. 4 -- Wake? UNC? BC? Duke?

    I don't think I'm being a homer to suggest that if Duke were in the Atlantic Division, we'd have a realistic chance to play in the ACC title game (especially if that meant we'd get to replace Miami and Ga Tech on the schedule with BC and Clemson).

    As it stands, Va Tech can virtually clinch the Coastal title with a win in Atlanta this coming Saturday. It won't be easy, but they already have a win over Miami, so they'd be 4-0 with the tough part of the schedule out of the way. They'd have to lose two of their last four to give Miami (or Duke) a chance. I guess Virginia would still have their fate in their hands, but I don't think they win out.

    The Atlantic is a mess. I have no idea who comes out of there with the title. I just wish we were in the mix.

    BTW: It's early, but the Coastal is 5-0 against the Atlantic so far this season: Miami over FSU; VPI over BC; GTech over Clemson; GTech over FSU and Duke over NC State. Hope that trend continues when we play Maryland from the Atlantic.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Want a train-wreck scenario?

    Try this on for size. VT wins the Coastal. They're 11-1, ranked in the top five nationally, maybe even top two or three.

    Then they lay an egg in the ACC title game and lose to a 7-5 Wake Forest team or some such. Think BCS disaster.

  3. #3

    two BCS berths

    I don't expect it to happen, but I had an ACC official tell me that this could be the year the ACC gets two BCS bids.

    The scenario would have to be that Va Tech wins out to go 11-1 ... they'd be assured of a BCS berth by winning the ACC title game -- maybe, just maybe a spot in the title game (with 11 straight wins).

    The other chance is Miami. They could win out to finish 10-1 and they'd still be shut out of the ACC title game because of their loss to Virginia Tech. But with wins over Oklahoma and Georgia Tech they'd rate pretty high in the BCS standings ... high enough to get an at-large berth? It might come down to the finale against South Florida, which very well could be the Big East champ (either them or Cincinnati).

    We'll have to wait for the first BCS standings to see how likely that scenario is -- a lot of other candidates for that out there. I'd like to see it happen (unless we can spoil it by beating Miami) ... to that end, I'll be pulling for:

    (1) Southern Cal to win the Pac 10. Even at 9-2, the Trojans would be attractive to the BCS.
    (2) Boise State and TCU to lose somewhere along the way (if there's one unbeaten non-major, they'll probably get at at large).
    (3) Texas to knock Oklahoma out of the picture with a third loss.
    (4) Notre Dame to lose a couple more

    I'm pretty sure that the Alabama-Florida loser is going to get one of the at-large bids. By rule, a conference can only have two BCS teams. The SEC gets one for sure, but there are three others out there for grabs.

    Again, not saying it's likely -- but the ACC has its best chance in years.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA

    How were these created?

    Just really looking at that divisional breakdown for the 1st time. Is there any logic to the divisional set-up or was it basically a coin-flip, keeping in mind geographic and estimated current program quality balance? I imagine this has been debated before elsewhere, but if you're gonna make up divisions, isn't it more fun to at least have a geographic rivalry created (i.e. North Atlantic vs. South Atlantic). I realize that any "logical" system one creates is likely to seem unbalanced or problematic to someone, but the current setup seems pretty arbitrary. It also looks as if it breaks up some of the more interesting rivalries (i.e. NCS v. 9F and Miami v. Florida State). Just for fun, what about Public Universities (FSU, Clemson, NCS, 9F, UVA and MD) vs. Private and Tech (Miami, GT, Duke, Wake, VT, BC) schools?

    Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    I believe the idea was to insure that Miami and Florida State played every year in the title game.

    There's simply no way to have a N-S division without breaking up the Big Four. Then again, they've already done that.

    You've got four northern teams; BC, Maryland, Virginia, and VT.

    Four Southern teams; Clemson, GT, Miami, and FSU. So, two of the NC teams go South, two go North. Makes as much sense as having Duke and State go years without playing each other.

    How about this? BC, Maryland, Duke, UNC, NCSU, and Miami comprise the Eastern Division. Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, Clemson, Georgia Tech, and Florida State comprise the Western Division.

  6. #6
    Here's an idea:

    What if the ACC were to develop a kind of relegation system for determining divisions? Have cycles of four years. At the end of each cycle, league teams are ranked one to twelve on the basis of total conference wins over the period, most wins #1, least wins #12. All the odd ranked teams (1st, 3rd, 5th, and so on) are in one division, all the even ranked teams are in the other. For scheduling purposes, you'd play every team in your division every year, and have two year home and home series with the teams from the other division. So in years 1 and 2 of a cycle you'd play teams A, B, and C, and in year 3 and 4 you're playing home and home with D, E, and F.

    The benefit is that it would correct for upward or downward trends in team performance over time and help maintain some semblance of parity between the two divisions. You'd likely have a more competitive title game and a greater shot at multiple BCS teams. Plus, no two schools would go longer than two years without playing each other.

    The down side is that you'd likely have to sacrifice some traditional rivalries (or at least the guarantee that said rivalries will be played every year), and travel could be an issue depending on how the rankings pan out.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    I have no problem with our division; I like the fact that we have the likes of VT, Miami and GT standing between us and an opportunity to play in the title game. Year in and out, we are guaranteed to have one of the toughest schedules in football; we can only get better because of it. Look at our recent outing against VT, and then look at how we handled State. I think the VT game was a great game for us as a team to experience, and it showed at Carter-Finley. Having to play our best against the best the ACC has to offer shouldn't be looked on as a hinderance but instead as great opportunities that other teams would be envious of. (It can also only help in recruiting when we do well against those teams.)
    Mmmm, BBQ!

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    I understand plenty that the current alignment was intended to have Miami and FSU opposite each other.

    What I don't understand is how that dictated the placement of the other ten schools.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  9. #9

    you're hired

    Jim Sumner, you're hired, go ahead with your division changes. If i were you, i wouldn't even run it by Swofford, i'm sure he'll agree with you. The only thing wrong with your proposal is, it makes too much sense.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    New Orleans, Louisiana
    Some good ideas, but I've always thought about dividing the conference into an Inner ACC (VA and NC schools) and Outer ACC (BC, MD, Clemson, GT, FSU, and Miami). For all sports. The northernmost and southernmost schools may end up traveling a bit more, but hey, they have to travel a lot anyway.

    Also, setting up the conference with Miami-FSU in mind is silly and shortsighted. Especially since they play each other each year... in September.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    I understand plenty that the current alignment was intended to have Miami and FSU opposite each other.

    What I don't understand is how that dictated the placement of the other ten schools.
    Here's how I always thought the divisions broke down:

    1) FSU and Miami were put in separate divisions intentionally. In addition, their game was moved to the beginning of the season so the loser isn't screwed out of a BCS shot.

    2) Duke, NC State, UNC, and Wake had to be split up, because putting all 4 in one division was considered a handicap considering how bad they all had historically been. So Duke/UNC stay together and State/Wake stay together.

    3) Duke has the longest active streak in the conference of annual football games with Ga. Tech. I've always thought that played a part in GT being put into the same division with Duke. Clemson and GT are comparable usually, so put Clemson into the Atlantic to balance it out.

    4) Now you're left with VT, Virginia, Maryland, and BC. They put VT and Va due to the proximity and rivalry, which pairs Maryland and BC. Since Miami and VT are rivals as well, they put VT and VA in costal and MD and BC in Atlantic. Everyone thought VT was good in football, but no one really believed they would dominate the conference annually the way they have.

    Having FSU suck it up while Duke looks vastly improved definitely skews things toward the Coastal. If FSU were in the top 10, things would be a lot more balance.
    "There can BE only one."

  12. #12

    A different solution

    Add four more teams to the conference, it doesn't really matter who.

    Then put in one division:

    Duke, UNC, Maryland, NCSU, GaTech, Clemson, Virginia, and Wake Forest - I have no idea what to call it, just for kicks, maybe we could call it "The ACC"

    And in the other division you'd have:

    Miami, VaTech, Boston College, Florida State, and 4 other randonly selected teams. A good name for it might be, "Those Other Guys".

    Then, the division called "Not the ACC" could split off and form their own conference. Instead of finding 8 new teams, we'd simply stay at a reasonable number of teams, and use the division name for the ocnference name, calling the new conference, The ACC. Everybody could play everybody each year in football and the conference could have a double round robin for basketball. That would be so cool . . . I wonder if anybody has ever done anything like that?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    I'm certainly not advocating expanding.

    But, while we're playing why-nots, going to 16 could solve all the problems, but only if the four new teams were ALL north of NC or ALL south of NC.

    Let me explain.

    Right now, the ACC has three quartets, the Big Four, the four schools south of NC, and the four schools north of NC.

    Add four northern schools, bracket the Big Four with Clemson, GT, Miami, and FSU and you've got an eight-team Northern Division and an eight-team Southern Division that doesn't break up any states.

    Or add four southern schools and put the Big Four in the Northern Division. Same benefits.

    Of course, that would make it difficult for those of us who miss the old hoops double round-robin. 30 conference games would be a bit much, even for me.

  14. #14
    Haha....boy one stomping of a mediocre NCSU team and you're talking about contending for the divisional title?

    Yes, the Atlantic is all out of wack and the results so far are crazy. But do you really think, despite records so far, that Duke would be in contention against FSU, Clemson, Wake, etc.

    C'mon guys, take off the blue-tinted glasses for a sec. You've made amazing progress, but you've just won your first ACC road game in six years....

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by Slackerb View Post
    Haha....boy one stomping of a mediocre NCSU team and you're talking about contending for the divisional title?

    Yes, the Atlantic is all out of wack and the results so far are crazy. But do you really think, despite records so far, that Duke would be in contention against FSU, Clemson, Wake, etc.

    C'mon guys, take off the blue-tinted glasses for a sec. You've made amazing progress, but you've just won your first ACC road game in six years....
    Who in this thread said we were contending for a title?
    Mmmm, BBQ!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Slackerb View Post
    Haha....boy one stomping of a mediocre NCSU team and you're talking about contending for the divisional title?

    Yes, the Atlantic is all out of wack and the results so far are crazy. But do you really think, despite records so far, that Duke would be in contention against FSU, Clemson, Wake, etc.

    C'mon guys, take off the blue-tinted glasses for a sec. You've made amazing progress, but you've just won your first ACC road game in six years....
    I don't disagree, but FSU is, by all indications, worse than mediocre this year. I'm not sure yet about Clemson, but they lost to Maryland, so we'll see after Duke plays the Terps in two weeks. Wake is solid, but Duke already plays them every year and is in contention more often than not. We shall see.

  17. #17
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    Who in this thread said we were contending for a title?
    The first post in this thread said:
    I don't think I'm being a homer to suggest that if Duke were in the Atlantic Division, we'd have a realistic chance to play in the ACC title game (especially if that meant we'd get to replace Miami and Ga Tech on the schedule with BC and Clemson).
    Slackerb doesn't agree.

    Looking at the Atlantic Division, however, I agree with Olympic Fan . . but I proudly wear Duke blue glasses.
    Last edited by Johnboy; 10-12-2009 at 12:15 PM. Reason: correction

  18. #18
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    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnboy View Post
    The first post in this thread said:


    Slackerb doesn't agree.

    Looking at the Atlantic Division, however, I agree with Olympic Fan . . but I proudly wear Duke blue glasses.
    I need more coffee...and it's past noon. Sigh.
    Mmmm, BBQ!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Slackerb View Post
    Haha....boy one stomping of a mediocre NCSU team and you're talking about contending for the divisional title?

    Yes, the Atlantic is all out of wack and the results so far are crazy. But do you really think, despite records so far, that Duke would be in contention against FSU, Clemson, Wake, etc.

    C'mon guys, take off the blue-tinted glasses for a sec. You've made amazing progress, but you've just won your first ACC road game in six years....
    Well we're talking about a hypothetical as if we were in a division with those teams, yes.

    And well, we should have beaten Wake 3 years running, (and would have done so if not for 2 missed FGs in two of those years). This is the best Duke team yet, so a win over Wake is certainly possible...and hey look, they're on the schedule! We get to see this play out, then we can talk about it.

    As for Clemson and FSU, hard to say. I think FSU is far better than the record indicates (See: The BYU Game), but they're the type of team that just overlooks teams and doesnt put forth their best effort. They could have theoretically stomped us....or could've been upset by us. Hard to tell.

    I think Clemson would beat us. But it'd be close.

    Remember Slackerb, this is after holding VT close as well, not just the NC State win.
    <devildeac> anyone playing drinking games by now?
    7:49:36<Wander> drink every qb run?
    7:49:38<loran16> umm, drink every time asack rushes?
    7:49:38<wolfybeard> @devildeac: drink when Asack runs a keeper
    7:49:39 PM<CB&B> any time zack runs, drink

    Carolina Delenda Est

  20. #20
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slackerb View Post
    Haha....boy one stomping of a mediocre NCSU team and you're talking about contending for the divisional title?

    Yes, the Atlantic is all out of wack and the results so far are crazy. But do you really think, despite records so far, that Duke would be in contention against FSU, Clemson, Wake, etc.

    C'mon guys, take off the blue-tinted glasses for a sec. You've made amazing progress, but you've just won your first ACC road game in six years....
    There will always be those who doubt because of the longstanding difficulties associated with Duke football. I like stepping back and looking at the gains made this season rather than overgeneralizing from each individual game. Right now it's not even about whether Duke is in the running for a divisional title. It's about regaining respect and building confidence in solid, consistent play.

    I've been saying that Duke will surprise some people this year..... they have already and have a few more surprises to reveal before the season is over.

    There's still time to buy into the program and show up at the games!

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