Dick Groat batting title

[miramar]

Hanley Ramirez of the Florida Marlins won the National League batting title this year with a .342 average, but it turns out that he's the first NL shortstop to win the title since Dick Groat in 1960:

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/news/...=.jsp&c_id=fla

Groat batted .325 and won the MVP that year.

[Duvall]

Hanley Ramirez of the Florida Marlins won the National League batting title this year with a .342 average, but it turns out that he's the first NL shortstop to win the title since Dick Groat in 1960:

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/news/...=.jsp&c_id=fla

Groat batted .325 and won the MVP that year.

And yet, everyone keeps talking about the second baseman...

[hurleyfor3]

They had a pretty good right fielder, too.

The '60 Pirates really were a special team.

[roywhite]

They had a pretty good right fielder, too.

The '60 Pirates really were a special team.

Lots of memories there; grew up in the Pittsburgh area listening to Bob Prince and the Bucs on a transistor radio.

Dick "Doctor Strangeglove" Stuart at 1st
Billy "Golden Hands" Mazeroski at 2nd
Groat at shortstop
Don Hoak at 3rd
Skinner, Virdon, and Clemente (the great one) in outfield
Smokey Burgess behind the plate
Vern Law, Bob Friend, Wilmer "Vinegar Bend" Mizell, Harvey Haddix, Elroy Face on the mound

Pirates were absolutely blown out by the Yanks in some of the WS games, but managed to find a way to win it all.

[Indoor66]

Lots of memories there; grew up in the Pittsburgh area listening to Bob Prince and the Bucs on a transistor radio.

Dick "Doctor Strangeglove" Stuart at 1st
Billy "Golden Hands" Mazeroski at 2nd
Groat at shortstop
Don Hoak at 3rd
Skinner, Virdon, and Clemente (the great one) in outfield
Smokey Burgess behind the plate
Vern Law, Bob Friend, Wilmer "Vinegar Bend" Mizell, Harvey Haddix, Elroy Face on the mound

Pirates were absolutely blown out by the Yanks in some of the WS games, but managed to find a way to win it all.

Did you mean Harvey "The Kitten" Haddix?

[roywhite]

Did you mean Harvey "The Kitten" Haddix?

Yeah, still remember his near perfect game against the Braves in 1959. He was perfect through 12 innings and then lost the game 1-0 in the 13th. Pirates had a number of hits but couldn't get anybody home. Lou Burdette went the whole way for the win.

[Indoor66]

Yeah, still remember his near perfect game against the Braves in 1959. He was perfect through 12 innings and then lost the game 1-0 in the 13th. Pirates had a number of hits but couldn't get anybody home. Lou Burdette went the whole way for the win.

In today's world there would have been about 10 pitchers in that game. Rare to see one go 7 innings.

[Olympic Fan]

Not to dis a Dukie, but Groat's MVP award in 1960 was as bad as Dawson's in 1987.

Frank Robinson probably should have won it, but that was an era when they loved to give the MVP to the best player on the best team.

Of course, Groat wasn't the best player on the 60 Pirates. Yeah, he won the batting title with a .325 average, but it was a pretty empty .325 -- just 35 walks, and 32 extra base hits -- 154 singles. He was a mediocre defensive shortstop (his numbers actually look pretty average, helped by his DP rate, which was in turned helped by playing alongside the greatest DP second-baseman in history; but Sport Magazine ran a poll of NL managers in 1957 that rated Groat the worst starting shortsop in the league defensively). He didn't steal a single base all season and ended up scoring 86 runs and driving in 50.

Clemente was the best player on that team. What we forget because he's a sainted player now is that in 1960 he was as reviled as George Bell or Milton Bradley in more recent times. He was regarded as a selfish, lazy ballplayer -- obviously a misperception, but writers at the time had a hard time dealing with the language barrier and a cultural divide. Clemente made things look so easy, they thought he wasn't trying. He also struggled with a lot of minor injuries -- and management portrayed him as a malingerer (that's not so much a racial thing and a control issue -- the Yankees did the same with Roger Maris in 1965, forcing him to play with a severed tendon in his wrist and when he complained about it, they (1) lied about the medical reports and (2) told reporters that he was a malingerer). It's funny -- Clemente played 144 games in 1960 and was considered a malingerer ... Groat played 138 games and was considered a warrior.

Clemente didn't walk much either, but he hit .314, scored 89 runs and drove in 94. Plus he was the best defensive rightfielder in baseball -- maybe the best of all time. He finished 8th in the MVP voting.

The perception at the time was the Groat was a great leader and the team captain ... Clemente was selfish, lazy player. So all the intangibles went to Groat. But all the tangibles go to Clemente.

A year later, Clemente won the batting title at .351, won his first gold glove and improved all his power numbers. He finished 4th in the MVP vote -- I'm telling you, he was totally dis-respected as a young player.

PS Do you remember that Clemente originally belonged to the Brooklyn Dodgers? They thought so little of him that they exposed him in the rule 5 draft and he was drafted by Pittsburgh.

[roywhite]

To the MVP vote in 1960, I can't speak for the writers but I certainly don't think Clemente was dis-respected by Pittsburgh fans. He was an exciting player, an emerging star, and very popular with Pirate fans.

Granted, I was 10 years old at the time, but I followed the Pirates very closely---listened to the games, read the newspaper articles, and knew the batting averages.

Groat had a great year on a championship team; I don't think Groat was undeserving of the MVP award. That's my opinion. But the case that he was undeserving, and did not compare well to Clemente---that's also an opinion.

[Olympic Fan]

To the MVP vote in 1960, I can't speak for the writers but I certainly don't think Clemente was dis-respected by Pittsburgh fans. He was an exciting player, an emerging star, and very popular with Pirate fans.

Actually, Clemente was routinely booed in Pittsburgh in his early years -- the fans misled by an idiotic press corps. Only later did he become the beloved player you remember (although there was still one famous occassion when he was booed at home in 1969). Check out David Maraniss' biography or if you get a chance, the excellent Bernardo Ruiz documentary for PBS. Both address this issue.

I once ran across a baseball historian (I can't recall who it was now) who picked an alltime unpopular superstar list -- based on the lack of appreciation the stars received from their home fans. I don't remember all of it, but I do know that the outfield was:

Ted Williams -- probably no great player was ever booed as much by his home fans as Ted was early in his career. His worst year was probably 1942, when the guy who would serve two tours on combat in two wars was crucified by the fans as a draft dodger (a lot of other stars played through 1942 before enlisting, but Ted seemed to catch the brunt of the fans' anger). It didn't help that he was in a running war with the Boston media which never missed the chance to make him look bad.

Roberto Clemente -- they didn't understand his language, his style or his approach to the game. And they didn't understand what a great human being he was. Again, his situation was acerbated by an idiotic, maybe rascist, home press corps.

Mickey Mantle -- He was supposed to be Joe DiMaggio and he wasn't (actually, he was better than DiMaggio -- it's just that DiMaggio was better in the triple crown categories ... Mantle was better in the hidden stats that nobody paid attention to then -- OBP, OPS). Even when Mantle won the triple crown in 1956 and just missed winning it back-to-back in 1957, he was routinely booed in Yankee Stadium. It wasn't until he was locked in the home run race with Maris in 1961 that Mantle suddenly became a Yankee icon.

Now, in all three cases, there were obviously plenty of supportive fans -- even in the early years. But all three superstars had to endure an ugodly amount of criticism from their home fans ... until late in their careers. Sometimes I wonder if the love they now receive in hindsight isn't a unconcious effort to make up for the unfair early criticism.

Just my opinion, but I think home fans are much more forgiving these days. No matter what Barry Bonds did, the San Francisco fans showered him with love. A-Roid gets a few booes in Yankee Stadium, but nothing like Williams, Clemente or Mantle endured. The Boston fans put up with all of Manny's craziness -- "That's just Manny being Manny" -- until he started tanking games to get out of Boston and some of the fans finally turned on him. In LA, he comes back from a two month suspension for using PEDs and the LA fans give him a standing ovation.

[jimsumner]

Yankees fans used all their vitriol on Kyle Farnsworth and Carl Pavano and didn't have any left for ARod.