We take pride in the education of our athletes, but...

[Grey Devil]

The NY Times had an article today about NBA players who are going back to college to finish their education. They mentioned players like Russell Westbrook (UCLA), Chris Paul (Wake Forest), Kevin Durant (Texas), Jeff Green (Georgetown), and Vince Carter (UNC) as players who are taking classes (or in the case of Carter, finished and graduated) during the off-season. It talked about the challenges professional athletes face in finishing their education, but overall was a very inspiring story and it was good to see that some NBA players are making the effort to continue their education.

It got me to wondering about Duke players who leave early to go pro. How many of them have gone on to take more classes and get their degrees? I know that Coach K has a policy to not retire jerseys unless the player gets a degree, and I know that some players have loaded up on courses to get their degrees in three years so they can leave early (like Jason, aka "Jay," Williams) but what has happened to the others who have left early, like Deng, Dunleavy, Brand, Randolph, McRoberts, etc.? They all seem like straight up people who would want to finish their degrees, but have they been doing that? Does anybody know? And what, if anything, does Duke do to encourage them to finish? We are proud of our student-athletes, and rightfully so, but I'd like to be able to say, also, that even after they leave early they go on to finish their degrees.

Thoughts?

Grey Devil

[allenmurray]

The NY Times had an article today about NBA players who are going back to college to finish their education. They mentioned players like Russell Westbrook (UCLA), Chris Paul (Wake Forest), Kevin Durant (Texas), Jeff Green (Georgetown), and Vince Carter (UNC) as players who are taking classes (or in the case of Carter, finished and graduated) during the off-season. It talked about the challenges professional athletes face in finishing their education, but overall was a very inspiring story and it was good to see that some NBA players are making the effort to continue their education.

It got me to wondering about Duke players who leave early to go pro. How many of them have gone on to take more classes and get their degrees? I know that Coach K has a policy to not retire jerseys unless the player gets a degree, and I know that some players have loaded up on courses to get their degrees in three years so they can leave early (like Jason, aka "Jay," Williams) but what has happened to the others who have left early, like Deng, Dunleavy, Brand, Randolph, McRoberts, etc.? They all seem like straight up people who would want to finish their degrees, but have they been doing that? Does anybody know? And what, if anything, does Duke do to encourage them to finish? We are proud of our student-athletes, and rightfully so, but I'd like to be able to say, also, that even after they leave early they go on to finish their degrees.

Thoughts?

Grey Devil

It isn't always necessary and may be over-rated in the "honor" category. Bill Gates didn't go back and get his degree. He has had a successful life financially and as a philanthropist, and seems to regularly take on intellectual challenges. I don't hear people wonder why he doesn't go back and get his degree in order to accomplish that goal. Deng, Dunleavy, and Brand all seem to have themselves clearly established in their field (Mcroberts and Randolph are still a question mark).

I think that those players who do go back deserve accolades - it is a great feat given their time demands and pressures. But those who don't may well still be living very full lives outside of sports. Many of the most interesting people I know, who have great intellectual and creative energy, do not have college degrees.

[jimsumner]

Dunleavy got a degree.

[juise]

Dunleavy got a degree.

... with a degree in history, according to the Pacers' website. I'm not sure that I knew that.

[jv001]

Probably a stupid question, but when a player leaves early for the pros, does this count against Duke as to the graduation rate involving scholarships? If he comes back and gets his degree does this have an effect? Go Duke!

[DukeUsul]

Probably a stupid question, but when a player leaves early for the pros, does this count against Duke as to the graduation rate involving scholarships? If he comes back and gets his degree does this have an effect? Go Duke!

Yes it counts against us. So do transfers away. And transfers in that do graduate do not count. I think the NCAA has a 6 year limit for completing a degree, so if it is completed after that time period, it still doesn't count.

[Edouble]

The NY Times had an article today about NBA players who are going back to college to finish their education. They mentioned players like Russell Westbrook (UCLA), Chris Paul (Wake Forest), Kevin Durant (Texas), Jeff Green (Georgetown), and Vince Carter (UNC) as players who are taking classes (or in the case of Carter, finished and graduated) during the off-season. It talked about the challenges professional athletes face in finishing their education, but overall was a very inspiring story and it was good to see that some NBA players are making the effort to continue their education.

It got me to wondering about Duke players who leave early to go pro. How many of them have gone on to take more classes and get their degrees? I know that Coach K has a policy to not retire jerseys unless the player gets a degree, and I know that some players have loaded up on courses to get their degrees in three years so they can leave early (like Jason, aka "Jay," Williams) but what has happened to the others who have left early, like Deng, Dunleavy, Brand, Randolph, McRoberts, etc.? They all seem like straight up people who would want to finish their degrees, but have they been doing that? Does anybody know? And what, if anything, does Duke do to encourage them to finish? We are proud of our student-athletes, and rightfully so, but I'd like to be able to say, also, that even after they leave early they go on to finish their degrees.

Thoughts?

Grey Devil

Brand basically said a while back that he is never going back for his degree. I read it in an interview in some street basketball type magazine that he has zero interest in getting his degree. He said Dawkins would call and encourage him to take classes in the off season, but Brand really laughed it off in the article.

I would be willing to venture a guess that Avery and Magette will not be back for degrees either.

IMHO, it would be nice to see Shav back, as he probably wouldn't have to take too many classes to graduate, and of course his family has a fine tradition of receiving bachelor's degrees from the North Carolina ACC schools.

[DukeSean]

Honestly if I were established in the NBA like Brand, I wouldn't see any point to finishing up my education and getting a degree. The way I see it, the choices break down like this:

1) Study, do some work, get the degree. Marginal, if any (especially financial) benefit.
2) Spend the time I would otherwise be spending studying in the weight room, gym, improving my game. Much more potentially lucrative benefit.

Yea, the argument of finishing to help Coach K and graduation rates is there, but honestly if you're not getting a degree for yourself then why are you getting it?

[cspan37421]

Bill Gates didn't go back and get his degree. He has had a successful life financially and as a philanthropist, and seems to regularly take on intellectual challenges.

Forget for a second that we're talking about basketball players who've made millions of dollars. I find this argument to be fallacious in a similar way to reductio ad Hitlerium. The idea is that no one needs a college degree because Bill Gates didn't. It gets overused and misapplied.

Now, let's again recall that we're talking about people who should be set for life financially. OK, if that's the case, then sure, a degree probably won't add a whit to their financial security.

But wait! How many early-entry players have mismanaged their money so much that a college degree might actually help their prospects? Ah. I'm guessing a non-trivial number/percentage.

Personally I'd rather have real student athletes than non-degree seeking hired guns. After all, how are we any different from the typical school if our guys aren't getting their degrees? We used to pride ourselves on that. Are we so desperate to put K past the General and get him his 4th title that we'd lower our academic standards and expectations to be no tougher than anyone else? No thanks.

[allenmurray]

Forget for a second that we're talking about basketball players who've made millions of dollars. I find this argument to be fallacious in a similar way to reductio ad Hitlerium. The idea is that no one needs a college degree because Bill Gates didn't. It gets overused and misapplied.

Now, let's again recall that we're talking about people who should be set for life financially. OK, if that's the case, then sure, a degree probably won't add a whit to their financial security.

But wait! How many early-entry players have mismanaged their money so much that a college degree might actually help their prospects? Ah. I'm guessing a non-trivial number/percentage.

Personally I'd rather have real student athletes than non-degree seeking hired guns. After all, how are we any different from the typical school if our guys aren't getting their degrees? We used to pride ourselves on that. Are we so desperate to put K past the General and get him his 4th title that we'd lower our academic standards and expectations to be no tougher than anyone else? No thanks.

Just a little vitriolic, don't ya'think? Reductio ad Hitlerium? Please. I don't recall that I ever said anything about not rather hav(ing) real student athletes than non-degree seeking hired guns. Nor do I recall having said anything about K's 4th national championship or about lowering our standards. Could you please find where I said that and point it out to me, becasue I have looked and I can't find it. The three players I mentioned (Brand, Dunleavy, and Deng) are financially set. Sure, it is possible they will mis-manage their money such that they will need to get a job after they leave the NBA, though at this point it is doubtful (look at the background of Deng's father and Dunlevy's father, and the amount of money Brand has made and the way he has conducted himself). Even if they find themselves in that position, having an undergraduate degree is not a magical potion that will fix their life - there are many people who live full productive lives who do not have college degrees. My guess is that any one of those three could find post-basketball employment with or without a degree.

The broader point is that we do not need to hold these players in lower regard because they didn't come back and get their degree. Further, they are free to make decisions that they feel are in their best interest and live their lives as they please. My statement, that those who don't (go back and finish their degrees) may well still be living very full lives outside of sports is one I will stand behind. Not everyone needs a college degree to have a good life.

Also, I never said that no one needs a college degree becasue Bill Gates didn't. (as you imply I said). You need to look more carefully. I said that Bill Gates didn't need to go back and finish his degree because he had already found success in his field. That is different from saying that people in general don't need degrees because Gates doesn't have one. But it is similar to saying that Elton Brand doesn't need to go back and finish his degree becasue he has found success in his field.

Next time respond to what I actually said, please.

[juise]

But wait! How many early-entry players have mismanaged their money so much that a college degree might actually help their prospects?

See Walker, Antoine.

[cspan37421]

Allenmurray, I took a tangent, I make no claim that you said those things. I only claim that you used Bill Gates as an example of someone who doesn't need a college degree [as you point out, more specifically, doesn't need to go back] - and went on to say that I have found others overuse that example - applying it to other situations. I meant no vitriol and am sorry that it came across that way. Really.

[cspan37421]

As another follow up:

in high school we students were herded into our auditorium to listen to an armed forces recruiter make a pitch. Included in the pitch was a denigration of college - that half of it just repeats high school courses (e.g., math, science, English etc). I don't know about others but I felt it was misleading. Perhaps if I had gone elsewhere other than Duke his POV would have been more on target, I don't know. But I do not think it wise (or accurate, or fair) to denigrate the benefits of college. Y'all already have figured that out, I'm guessing.

[allenmurray]

Allenmurray, I took a tangent, I make no claim that you said those things. I only claim that you used Bill Gates as an example of someone who doesn't need a college degree [as you point out, more specifically, doesn't need to go back] - and went on to say that I have found others overuse that example - applying it to other situations. I meant no vitriol and am sorry that it came across that way. Really.

no problem.

I work in remote rural public school systems all over the US. I'm glad I went to college, otherwise I wouldn't have this job that really I love. But I meet folks all the time who have wonderful, happy, productive lives, full of creativity and intellect, who never went to college. I don't believe that college is overrated, but I have come to the place where I no longer look down on those who didn't go or didn't finish. I get ticked off pretty easily at those who do (I'm not saying you do, I'm explaining my quick triggerred reaction).

[awhom111]

Can one get a college or pro coaching job (assistant or head) without a college degree? That would be a pretty good reason to go back and finish.

[DU82]

Can one get a college or pro coaching job (assistant or head) without a college degree? That would be a pretty good reason to go back and finish.

Sidney Lowe had to quickly finish requirements for a BA so that he could be named the State coach.

I presume that this requirement is mainly at state schools (private schools have greater flexibility in their hiring requirements. Not to say that Duke's going to hire a coach without a degree, of course.)

[sagegrouse]

Can one get a college or pro coaching job (assistant or head) without a college degree? That would be a pretty good reason to go back and finish.

Not usually, and that is one of the practical reason for the one-and-done guys to continue in school. But it is not a blanket rule.

IIRC, Larry Brown hired Danny Manning's father, Ed, at Kansas, when he did not have a college degree. So may be it depends on how talented your offspring turn out.

sagegrouse

[DevilAlumna]

It isn't always necessary and may be over-rated in the "honor" category. Bill Gates didn't go back and get his degree. He has had a successful life financially and as a philanthropist, and seems to regularly take on intellectual challenges. I don't hear people wonder why he doesn't go back and get his degree in order to accomplish that goal.

Not to totally hijack this thread, but Bill Gates Sr. talks about this in his book, "Showing up for Life." (Great read, if you have a few hours.) "Trey," (what MSFT's Bill Gates was called as a kid) always promised his Dad he'd get his degree from Harvard eventually. He finally did so, when he received an honorary degree in 2007.

So yeah, even for Bill Gates, getting a degree meant something, to honor a promise.

(It does mean that for most MSFT job postings, degrees are not required...)

[allenmurray]

Not to totally hijack this thread, but Bill Gates Sr. talks about this in his book, "Showing up for Life." (Great read, if you have a few hours.) "Trey," (what MSFT's Bill Gates was called as a kid) always promised his Dad he'd get his degree from Harvard eventually. He finally did so, when he received an honorary degree in 2007.

So yeah, even for Bill Gates, getting a degree meant something, to honor a promise.

(It does mean that for most MSFT job postings, degrees are not required...)

He didn't go back and get an honorary degree to honor a promise. Had he wanted to honor his promise he would have gone back and finished the degree he started. Honorary degrees are awarded for lifetime accomplishmets, not for accomplishments earned in the classroom. I'd love to see Manute Bol be awarded an honorary degree. He is just as deserving as Gates. Yet I doubt that folks would then say he went tback to college to complete a degree (and it certainly would not count toward Bridgeport's graduation rate). I'm glad Gates is aware that it is inappropriate to go by Dr. Gates (I've known people with honoroary degrees who actually use the title Dr. - nothing could be tackier). I'll check out the book - I like Gates a lot. But he is not an example of someone who either needed to complete his degree, or who did.

[weezie]

Well, SmartyPants Bill Gates never had to get through comparative anatomy while flattening his derriere in those Bio-Sci seats, now did he? Honorary degree, indeed. Hmmphhh.