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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Thumbs down Heroes, 24 - 4/23

    Yawn. What a disappointment in both shows. And I was so looking forward to Heroes tonight.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
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  2. #2
    **SPOILER ALERT** (Sorry, don't know how to hide text.)

    Terrible Heroes. Really just dreadful. I think that the whole grieving for Peter when all they really had to do would pull the glass out of his head and he would come instantly back to life ordeal was the worst moment on the show thus far. Worst of all, it dragged out for 5+ minutes when we could have seen 5 more minutes of Hiro and Ando in the future. I thought the end was nice, but weak. There should have been some metaphysical quasi-universal effect to the two Hiros meeting each other.

    Did any one catch the symbolism of Isaac pinned down on the floor? At first I thought Jesus, but then on second look it looks like Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man, so I'm not sure what to make of that.

  3. #3
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    Feb 2007
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    Boston, MA

    Why? Why? Why? (Spoilers)

    Heroes has all this time off...and this is what they come back with? Blatantly stealing from other movies (the nuke is going to create good, just like destroying Gotham will be good ala Batman Begins....the shapeshifter, who is basically doing X-Men), and having Linderman and the grandmother as first generation Heroes? So utterly disappointing...which is a real shame.

    Also, there are a couple of things that I'm confused about:

    1) Where is Peter's scar? The one that future Hiro pointed out way back in one of the first episodes?

    2) Since he doesn't have it now...then he can't be the one to create the nuke. If "Save the Chearleader, Save the World," holds out, then Hiro went back to tell Peter that the Chearleader was the one to save...and Peter must have had a scar in the future...so he would not have been the one killed in the nuke blast.

    3) I thought Isaac died just before the nuke went off (per Hiro's first encounter with him)...this death was 5 days before or so. Odd.

    The show can still turn itself around, and Syler is great. But last night was pretty bad.

  4. #4
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    Feb 2007
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    Boston, MA

    Looks Like Most Liked It

    Average grade on Television Without Pity is an A, and most are saying it was great.

    Certainly had good action...I just saw it as a ripoff of a lot of other movies...with nothing really resolved.

  5. #5
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    Feb 2007
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    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    I can't believe how bad Heroes stucked. The acting was beyond awful. When big brother Petrelli was crying over Peter's body, it was just horrid. I actually backed it up on TIVO and said to the wife, "lets watch this again, just so we can see why Heroes is not even in the same ballpark as Lost."

    Continuity and story errors are really getting common now. I am starting to think that they may be making things up as they go along -- at least a little bit -- and that is a really bad sign.

    Are we ever going to see what Linderman did to convince Nicki/Jessica to let him use Micha? I doubt it.

    The escape from the paper factory holding cells was just horrid and devoid of any drama. My wife wants to know why Parkman was only hearing HRG's thoughts and not the thoughts of everyone around. And how, exactly, were they keeping Nuclear Ted from blowing up the entire building? Man, was security at that place ever lame, or what? Grab one rusty pipe and you can bust 3 people out. Yeah, that's realistic. I'll sauy this, it was a good thing HRG knew exactly how Ted's powers worked-- even more than Ted did. Sheesh!!!

    Is there any character more annoying than Mamma Patrelli? Are we supposed to be shocked when she unveils her own power or do we already officially know she has a power?

    I am very bothered by the notion of there being Heroes from a long time ago -- like the invisible guy, and Linderman, and Mamma Petrelli and probably many others (Hiro's dad/Sulu?). At the beginning of the show they kept on talking about an awakening and new abilities being discovered and the such. It was clearly implied that this was some new phenomenon happening. Now it turns out it has been around for decades. This also cheapens the importance and impact of all the work by father and son Suresh.

    I could go on and on-- that weas a truly dreadful episode, far worse than the worst episode of Lost. At this point, the comparisons of the two shows has become a joke.

    -Jason "I am still in a 24-free zone at my house... but I now have 2 episodes backed up on TIVO... just in case I decide to give it a new chance" Evans

  6. #6
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington DC

    I'm more positive on it

    Contrary to others on this board, I enjoyed the episode overall. My main criticims would be that 1) all of the big reveals were basically given away by the previews which took a lot of wind out of the show, and 2) they seemed to cram a lot of things into this episode and as a result rushed through it. For example, the Lindeman/Nathan scene was just too blunt, and I would have loved to see more of Peter vs Sylar or Future Hiro. As a trade off I think the Nikki/Lindeman stuff could have been cut from this episode. Probably a direct result of Lost criticisms, but I think they went too far the other direction.

    Imo, the big issue for the show will be how it treats time travel. In prior episodes they hinted at Hiro not being able to change past events, and every Isaac painting has come true, so they seem to indicate that you can't change past or future events. But Future Hiro looked like he was mapping out different timelines and strings, so they might go the other direction into infinite dimensions. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds, and if they aren't careful with the theory here, the time travel could make the plot irrelevant.

    @Udaman - I don't know how Peter will ever get a scar if he can heal. Only way would be if he somehow loses Claire's powers. Also, on the time of Isaac's death, Hiro finds him dead on the floor just before the bomb goes off, but he could have been dead for a while (if I remember correctly he looked "frozen" as well). With Simone dead and Peter and Hiro worrying about the bomb, I doubt anyone would have even been looking for Isaac so I would think it possible for him to have been killed a few days before being found.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Are we ever going to see what Linderman did to convince Nicki/Jessica to let him use Micha? I doubt it.
    Evans
    Keep in mind Nickessica didn't allow Linderman to take Micah, it was the "impersonator" that pretended to be Micah's mother.

    I did like the impersonator's line that said she could show HRG things that would make him scratch his eyes out.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Jason - a few reactions

    Lindeman never convinced Niki/Jessica to give over Micah - they used the Mystique girl to impersonate her.

    I find myself forgiving a lot on this show, and I don't know why. I like it a lot, but it is not the kind of show where I don't let my wife speak - those shows are BSG and The Office. Interestingly, I don't mind during Lost, because I am sure I will need to tivo back to stuff after reading bboards on Thursday.

    I am still onboard, and interested in seeing the days of future past episode. I think that the season still has a lot of life, and I am interested in seeing how the Watchmen storyline plays out.

    Interestingly, the main writer for the show is not a comics fan, so much of the references I and others have made to comic books are lost on him. I think that he has comic writers on his staff to keep him in line, but his lack of knowledge of the genre helps make Heroes approachable and also supplies some of the lamer moments - A wired article highlights some of the interesting interplay of the writers, exampled by the term 'schmuckbait', where practiced viewers will know that a hero is not in danger at the 'cliffhanger' moment (see: P. Petrelli with a glass shard in the back of his head) but the rubes get all excited. I think the glimmer of real comic myth and storytelling is what keeps me around.

    All-time stupidest moment of the episode, Peter turning his back on Sylar so that the glass could pierce his skull. WTF? Invisibility doesn't permit you to see behind you, does it? IANASH, but I generally believe that one should face
    an opponent when fighting them.

    Second place - Mo-tard not popping two bullets into Sylar's brain before dragging Peter away. Again, WTF?

    I was annoyed with the Petrelli family not knowing how to help Peter. Then I realized that only Claire knew about the 'not dying' with nothing bothering the brain.

    Exiled

  9. #9
    On a positive note, I thought the fight scene between Sylar and Petrelli was pretty cool. I liked the line of "I can't wait to try that one out." Although, if Sylar has super hearing, why didn't he hear Suresh coming with the blackboard until it was too late. Hiro vs. Hiro in the end was a decent cliffhanger.

    As for the negatives...

    I heard mama Petrelli say she had a power, but it wasn't identified what it was.

    Isaac dying was kind of lame. If you can predict the future, why on earth would you wait around for your killer to show up? Then again, painting the future is kind of a lame talent. Could you imagine Isaac hanging around the Justice League? "Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman - You guys go out and save the world, I'll stay here with the Wonder Twins and paint some stuff..."

    Also, what exactly is the point of Mohinder now? Or of Claire for that matter?

    After over a month off and a great cliffhanger, they could have done a lot better. Plus they only have 4 more episodes? That bites. Way too much to leave undone before next year.
    "There can BE only one."

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I can't believe how bad Heroes stucked. The acting was beyond awful. When big brother Petrelli was crying over Peter's body, it was just horrid. I actually backed it up on TIVO and said to the wife, "lets watch this again, just so we can see why Heroes is not even in the same ballpark as Lost."
    Obviously you didn't figure out that it was crocodile tears from Nathan, who had already figured out how everything would happen from Linderman.

    Continuity and story errors are really getting common now. I am starting to think that they may be making things up as they go along -- at least a little bit -- and that is a really bad sign.

    Are we ever going to see what Linderman did to convince Nicki/Jessica to let him use Micha? I doubt it.
    OK, gotta correct you on a few things. Niki/Jessica didn't convince Micah to help Linderman, Candice as Niki/Jessica did.

    The escape from the paper factory holding cells was just horrid and devoid of any drama. My wife wants to know why Parkman was only hearing HRG's thoughts and not the thoughts of everyone around. And how, exactly, were they keeping Nuclear Ted from blowing up the entire building?
    Three letters: EMP.

    Man, was security at that place ever lame, or what? Grab one rusty pipe and you can bust 3 people out. Yeah, that's realistic. I'll sauy this, it was a good thing HRG knew exactly how Ted's powers worked-- even more than Ted did. Sheesh!!!

    Is there any character more annoying than Mamma Patrelli? Are we supposed to be shocked when she unveils her own power or do we already officially know she has a power?

    I am very bothered by the notion of there being Heroes from a long time ago -- like the invisible guy, and Linderman, and Mamma Petrelli and probably many others (Hiro's dad/Sulu?).
    Obviously you forgot about Takeru Kensei, from the painting at the Met.

    At the beginning of the show they kept on talking about an awakening and new abilities being discovered and the such. It was clearly implied that this was some new phenomenon happening. Now it turns out it has been around for decades. This also cheapens the importance and impact of all the work by father and son Suresh.
    Not necessarily. After all, Mohinder kept repeating how the HGP was critical to his research, so who knows how the phenomena could have been seen in the past? Probably as witchcraft and thus the "evolved" were selected out by being burned at the stake?

    Lastly, I don't think Nathan or Mamma Petrelli knew about Peter's ability to regenerate, but only Claire did b/c of how Peter healed from his first fight with Sylar. Wouldn't that make the whole scene plausible?

    PS: "Save the cheerleader, save the world" is explained in the online comic. It was originally Sylar who was the bomb, having acquired abilities from Claire (who was killed in Homecoming rather than saved by Peter) and Ted Sprague. How Peter becomes the bomb is going to be an interesting story.

  11. #11

    Heroes

    Pretty much agree on the negative reactions, especially to the idea that no one would bother to pull an 8-inch shard of glass out of their dead brother's/son's head, and even more especially to the idea that someone who had just been staked to the ceiling and watched his tormentor try to rip the brains out of someone else's skull would just leave Sylar lying there unconscious, whether they thought Peter was dead or not. There's a loaded gun in the room. Yeesh. They couldn't write a believable way for that confrontation to end with all three characters living? It's patently ridiculous that Sylar lived after all that. The mind boggles at the writing. The fight itself was also incredibly lame. Peter went invisible and then stood there for 30 seconds doing nothing while looking the other way. Good thinking! What Sylar did with the glass was pretty cool, I guess, but he could have just concentrated on hearing Peter (by the way, his eardrums would probably have popped when Mohinder tried to shoot him in the last episode). Why Peter couldn't have thought of a way to avoid the glass is beyond me. Maybe while Sylar's standing there concentrating on the glass, you could telekinese something over there to hit him in the head? By the way, you can fly, too. Or did you not remember that?

    I hated that Linderman has the cliche evil guy "sacrifice ten million people to save the rest from some threat" attitude. You're supposed to make us think "hmmm, maybe that's a reasonable sacrifice in the abstract, given the imminent dangers on display, but, no, these are human beings and I can't believe I'm even thinking of condoning that sort of thing, even if it achieved its objective. It's immoral." Instead all we're left with is "this guy's obviously crazy and evil - even if he thinks he's doing the right thing, there's no moral ambiguity underlying it, just delusion." What's the need for blowing up NYC, again?

    I echo the criticism of the emerging theme of an older generation of heroes, now seen in full flower. Why did the first half a dozen episodes focus on an eclipse and how this was all new? There was plenty of potential for rivalries and emerging factions and some people using their powers for the wrong ends without having to have Linderman and Mrs. Petrelli and Hiro's dad running things from the shadows. I wish Primatech Paper had been something other than Linderman's evil doing.

    By the way, far too many people have supernatural powers on this show. At this point, Bennett and Ando appear to be the only regulars who don't have powers, and I wouldn't put it by the writers to change that, too.

    There was action last night, but not worth 6 weeks of waiting. I guess the reveal is always a let down after the build up and all the hypothesizing about what's really going on on a show like this.

    Questions:

    Did Isaac send out a bunch of paintings to let others know where Sylar would be, or what was he talking about before he died?

    I presume Micah is supposed to make the ID tagging machine in NYC work when Bennett and co. dismantle it, or am I missing something?

    Whatever happened to Hanna, the woman who was with Ted and Parkman and could read e-mails and the like?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    You're missing something. Micah is probably going to make the impenetrable "logic bomb" for the election that Hana was able to dismantle when Linderman's minions were trying earlier (if you've been reading http://www.samantha48616e61.com/). And one theory discussed at the boards at TelevisionWithoutPity.com says that the tracking device isn't a thing, but rather a person: Charles Deveaux, who is always near death, but not dead.

    One more thing to think about: is Nathan another Sen. Kelly and Linderman another Gen. Stryker? Spoilers from TV Guide and NBC seem to be leaning that way.

    EDIT: Link fixed.
    Last edited by JDSBlueDevl; 04-24-2007 at 05:10 PM.

  13. #13

    Hunh?

    I must admit, I have no idea what JDSBlueDevl just said. What exactly am I missing? What's a logic bomb? When did Hana dismantle one? She's only been in one episode, right? Did she say something about this to Ted and/or Parkman, maybe at the graveyard? Your explanation might clear up why Linderman told Nessica that he had a plan that had recently unraveled and he needed Micah to help, but I'll be danged if I remember her doing something like that. Regardless, it's awfully shady writing if she dropped some 411 about taking something apart into a conversation 4 episodes ago and now it's impacting Micah and we haven't seen her since. Why wasn't she at Bennett's house? What is she doing?

    Who on earth are Gen. Stryker and Sen. Kelly? When did we meet them?

    If I've been reading? There's reading assigned to a television show? I'm afraid the link you attached was dead, unfortunately.

    The theory you mention on the tracking would explain why everyone spends so much time atop the Deveaux Building, I guess.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    I must admit, I have no idea what JDSBlueDevl just said. What exactly am I missing?
    Evidently a lot.
    The online novels at http://www.nbc.com/Heroes (read the online novels first. If you've read them all up to the one corresponding to Parasite, read the next six, which detail an interesting relationship between Linderman and Pa Petrelli)
    http://www.samantha48616e61.com/ (look at the entries on this "blog" for the past month to see what I mean about "logic bomb". Oh, and the link above contained an extra parenthesis, so this should work)
    http://www.primatechpaper.com/
    http://www.9thwonders.com/
    http://www.activatingevolution.org/

    Also, Heroes360 online during the airing of Heroes explains a bit, such as how DL figured out that Niki was really Jessica (it was a scene that was cut out of Parasite).

    What's a logic bomb? When did Hana dismantle one? She's only been in one episode, right?
    Uh, yes and no. Physically in one episode, but she was in the Heroes360 feed for "Company Man" and is an active character in the online comics and her blog. And a "logic bomb" is a program written to rig an election.

    Who on earth are Gen. Stryker and Sen. Kelly? When did we meet them?
    We don't. They're characters from the X-Men universe that I said might have parallels to the Heroes universe (namely, in the forms of Linderman and Nathan, respectively).
    Last edited by JDSBlueDevl; 04-24-2007 at 05:12 PM.

  15. #15
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    Los Angeles
    I sort of stopped paying attention to the episode, or at least stopped trying to think about it, after Peter's "death". As a couple people said (Exiled first) I couldn't get over leaving Silar unconscious on the ground. I'd have killed him then and there. That wasn't my only problem with that scene, which is what led to my not really following it anymore. Second, Mohinder was suddenly alright, although he'd been bleeding profusely and had been pinned to the ceiling. I couldn't tell whether he was physically pinned (knives etc, such as some of the earlier victims of Sylar) or if it was just TK, although he dropped to the ground as if it was just TK. Third, what kind of cab lets you bring your dead buddy along with you? I don't live in NYC, but I can't imagine that they'll let you do that. Especially not if you also look like you've been tortured (Which you have). I mean, how exactly did Mohinder talk the cabby into doing that in broad daylight? It's strange that that is the part which was too much for me, but it was. I could handle the stupidity of not creating your own force shield when you see Silar raising the glass slowly. I can (almost) handle not killing Silar when you have the chance. I can handle Mohinder's amazing powers of recovery (I watch 24, after all). I can't handle a cabby willing to transport bloody dead people.

  16. #16
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Clipsfan View Post
    Third, what kind of cab lets you bring your dead buddy along with you? I don't live in NYC, but I can't imagine that they'll let you do that. Especially not if you also look like you've been tortured (Which you have). I mean, how exactly did Mohinder talk the cabby into doing that in broad daylight? It's strange that that is the part which was too much for me, but it was. I could handle the stupidity of not creating your own force shield when you see Silar raising the glass slowly. I can (almost) handle not killing Silar when you have the chance. I can handle Mohinder's amazing powers of recovery (I watch 24, after all). I can't handle a cabby willing to transport bloody dead people.
    It was Mohinder's cab.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    It was Mohinder's cab.
    Duh. At least that makes me less irritated with the episode. I forgot that Mohinder took over driving his dad's cab. I guess that's what multiple hiati (hiatuses?) combined with completely forgetable characters does to me.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDSBlueDevl View Post

    PS: "Save the cheerleader, save the world" is explained in the online comic. It was originally Sylar who was the bomb, having acquired abilities from Claire (who was killed in Homecoming rather than saved by Peter) and Ted Sprague. How Peter becomes the bomb is going to be an interesting story.
    Which chapter said this? I don't recall anything like that happening - as far as I have seen, we still don't have an explanation of save the cheerleader Right...just read the most recent chapter. There you go

    And I don't buy that Nathan was faking the tears - he knows a heck of a lot less than we as the audience, and nothing has shown that he believes the 'paint the future' stuff. After all, Peter didn't die in Texas like that painting showed.

    Finally, what makes you think that Takeru Kensai is directly related to, or was, a Hero? Lindeman has a picture, Hiro was obsessed with him and his sword has the ubiquitous symbol, but we have no conclusive evidence of him having powers. I would call it a theory, highly plausible, but not a sure thing that he was a hero

    Exiled
    Last edited by Exiled_Devil; 04-24-2007 at 09:31 PM. Reason: Read new comic

  19. #19
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    Charleston, SC
    Online at nbc.com there are novels that go with each episode. Each one gives a little more information about what's going on. For instance, the most recent one is about Hiro in the future and notes that Sylar was the orginial "human bomb" and that the reason Peter had the scar was that he had never met Claire and absorbed her power, that is, until the future Hiro began the whole "Save the Cheerleader, Save the World" saga. Here is a link to the online novels. They also go into more detail about Hanna (Wireless) and her role in the background.

    http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/novels/
    devildm
    Duke '03

  20. #20
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Exiled_Devil View Post
    Which chapter said this? I don't recall anything like that happening - as far as I have seen, we still don't have an explanation of save the cheerleader Right...just read the most recent chapter. There you go

    And I don't buy that Nathan was faking the tears - he knows a heck of a lot less than we as the audience, and nothing has shown that he believes the 'paint the future' stuff. After all, Peter didn't die in Texas like that painting showed.

    Finally, what makes you think that Takeru Kensai is directly related to, or was, a Hero? Lindeman has a picture, Hiro was obsessed with him and his sword has the ubiquitous symbol, but we have no conclusive evidence of him having powers. I would call it a theory, highly plausible, but not a sure thing that he was a hero

    Exiled
    Did you read Chapter 30? Read it again. It's on the third page of drawings, with Future Hiro saying, "Sylar's lifeline was crucial, of course. He was the bomb. I stabbed him before he exploded, but he regenerated. He was able to do this because he killed Claire Bennet, the cheerleader."

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