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  1. #1

    Better Duke backcourt? Last year vs. this year.

    2008-2009
    Greg Paulus - Sr.
    Gerald Henderson - Jr.
    Jon Scheyer - Jr.
    Nolan Smith - So.
    Elliot Williams - Fr.


    2009-2010
    Jon Scheyer - Sr.
    Kyle Singler - Jr.
    Nolan Smith - Jr.
    Andre Dawkins - Fr.

  2. #2
    I'm sorry, but what would possibly make this year's back court better than last years?

    Dawkins does not replace Paulus, Elliot and Gerald. I don't think Sheyer and Smith's maturation make up the difference.

  3. #3
    Last year, no question. Unless you count Kyle moving to the backcourt, but even then Kyle "changing positions" can't make up for the loss of Gerald, Greg, and Elliot.

    There's an argument that this year's team could potentially be better than last years, but there's no way this year's backcourt is better than last years. At least we can't say so right now.

  4. #4
    Hmmmm ... a good arguing point, but posed about three months early. I am excited about our backcourt, and salivating over having KYLE play so many positions, whether outside or in. This is going to be a very exciting team, especially if NOLAN gets consistent, and ANDRE becomes the contributor many think he can in his first year.

    The frontcourt is "seashells and balloons" (robbed from the late GREAT AL McGUIRE, when he was elated about something). The competition between LANCE, BRIAN, and (very possibly) an energized MILES -- not to mention the electric addition of one MASON PLUMLEE, kicking in KYLE when needed ... is going to give us a dimension we've not had in (YOU COUNT THE) years. And I didn't forget RYAN ...

    And a closing observation ... best wishes to EWILL in his new surroundings, I hope his being nearer his Mom will give both of them the closeness and energy they need. But now back to hoops ... with this DUKE lineup, (knowing this will be an unpopular point of view) I just don't see that he would have had a niche or made a significant contribution. We are loaded, boys and girls ... it's just a matter of 10-12 games, before this DUKE team (in the hands of the best Coach in America) will blossom into one of the BEST in the country. YOU HEARD IT HERE ... GO DUKE !

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Next years may be better than both. If Dawkins and Irving are as good as hyped. Add that to Smith and we might have a very athletic as well as talented backcourt.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ScreechTDX1847 View Post
    I'm sorry, but what would possibly make this year's back court better than last years?

    Dawkins does not replace Paulus, Elliot and Gerald. I don't think Sheyer and Smith's maturation make up the difference.
    Maybe because the backcourt now has a preseason 1st team all-american - Kyle Singler.

    Last years backcourt may be better, but consider this:

    Scheyer Sr. > Scheyer Jr.
    Smith Jr. > Smith So.
    Singler Jr. > Henderson Jr.
    Dawkins Fr. = Williams Fr.

  7. Devilsfan, don't forget Curry!

    It's hard to say which is the better backcourt, primarily because it's difficult to predict how much Scheyer and Nolan have improved.

    But Gerald is a lottery pick, and Singler being on this year's backcourt is a mere technicality as he often played on the perimeter last year. Moreover, last year's backcourt has way more depth.

    That said, it all depends on how Nolan and Scheyer mature.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    I think Scheyer was mature the day he stepped on the court. I wouldn't expect much change from the steady play we've been seeing from him. Nolan still has upside, but in his case I've been a little disappointed that it hasn't matured sooner. We can hope to see an upgrade there, but I don't think it is assured.

    Meanwhile, losing EWill and G is a very big couple of losses. We're losing our flash. Unless Dawkins proves to have Singler-like precociousness as a freshman, our backcourt must be considered a limiting factor this year and the frontcourt will have to carry the team, very non-Duke-like.
    Quel est si drole de la paix, de l'amour, et de la comprehension?

  9. #9
    The frontcourt is not going to carry Duke. The Backcourt will continue to carry Duke.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia

    Good argument

    Quote Originally Posted by houstondukie View Post
    Maybe because the backcourt now has a preseason 1st team all-american - Kyle Singler.

    Last years backcourt may be better, but consider this:

    Scheyer Sr. > Scheyer Jr.
    Smith Jr. > Smith So.
    Singler Jr. > Henderson Jr.
    Dawkins Fr. = Williams Fr.
    I think this is the best argument against those who automatically assume last year's backcourt was better. I think last year's backcourt had more depth, but I would have to believe our starters this year will be better based on my agreement with your chart above. If we stay healthy, big if, our backcourt-wing does look good.

  11. #11
    I think it could be assumed Dawkins will be better the Williams because Dawkins would get more PT earlier and develop faster. Williams was great at the end of the year, so just imagine if he had PT earlier. I think Andre will be better by the end of the year.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by houstondukie View Post
    Maybe because the backcourt now has a preseason 1st team all-american - Kyle Singler.

    Last years backcourt may be better, but consider this:

    Scheyer Sr. > Scheyer Jr.
    Smith Jr. > Smith So.
    Singler Jr. > Henderson Jr.
    Dawkins Fr. = Williams Fr.
    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    I think this is the best argument against those who automatically assume last year's backcourt was better. I think last year's backcourt had more depth, but I would have to believe our starters this year will be better based on my agreement with your chart above. If we stay healthy, big if, our backcourt-wing does look good.
    Good argument. It depends on whether you go 4 or 5 deep and last year

    Paulus Sr >>> Peters team mgr. or Jordan Davidson 5th yr walk-on recovering from injury

    In practice this year's team is better with Curry, but on the game court, only better as long as depth is not needed.

    Of course the trade-off in front court is no Singler and no McClure for improved Lance, improved Zoubek, a hopefully much improved and bulkier Miles and two high potential frosh

  13. #13
    Are we forgetting Kelly at the SF position?

    If we have Kyle there we should not forget to include Ryan.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dukefanbrooklyn View Post
    Are we forgetting Kelly at the SF position?

    If we have Kyle there we should not forget to include Ryan.
    This year realistically we are talking 5-10 MPG where Kyle is not at SF. Ryan is a possibility if he can defend or is paired with Lance. Lance is a defense only possibility. Olek is s a long shot and Andre can play there in 3 guard sets.

    Ryan will probably get the bulk of his minutes at PF vying with Lance and Mason for PT there. This could depend somewhat on how many minutes Miles and Z can provide at 5 with Mason also playing some there.

    All of this also depends on who the opponent has at the 3-4-5.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by houstondukie View Post
    Maybe because the backcourt now has a preseason 1st team all-american - Kyle Singler.

    Last years backcourt may be better, but consider this:

    Scheyer Sr. > Scheyer Jr.
    Smith Jr. > Smith So.
    Singler Jr. > Henderson Jr.
    Dawkins Fr. = Williams Fr.
    You can't really say Singler Jr. > Henderson Jr. because they are completely different players. Singler is a true wing player whereas Henderson is a shooting guard. Singler is bigger and a better three point shooter. Henderson is more athletic, better ball-handling, and better at driving. Plus Henderson could create better than Singler IMO.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by houstondukie View Post
    Maybe because the backcourt now has a preseason 1st team all-american - Kyle Singler.

    Last years backcourt may be better, but consider this:

    Scheyer Sr. > Scheyer Jr.
    Smith Jr. > Smith So.
    Singler Jr. > Henderson Jr.
    Dawkins Fr. = Williams Fr.
    I agree with Scheyer and Smith being better then last year. I doubt if anyone would disagree with that. With that being said. How do you say Singler is better then Henderson, when we have yet to see Singler as a Jr.? Then the Dawkins/Williams thing is different. None of us have yet to see Dawkins in a NCAA game, so who can judge that? Obviously, I hope he is better and can contribute from Day one.

    Lets say for debating sake that Singler is better then Henderson. WHO replaces Singler? I think it would be safe to say that whoever replaces Singler in the post wont be nearly as effective. Of course this thread is about the backcourt.

    Until I see this years backcourt in action. I have to go with last year. With that being said.. I see huge things from Mr. Dawkins in the futuer, but probably not until So. or Jr. Years.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    CA
    Quote Originally Posted by houstondukie View Post
    2008-2009
    Greg Paulus - Sr.
    Gerald Henderson - Jr.
    Jon Scheyer - Jr.
    Nolan Smith - So.
    Elliot Williams - Fr.


    2009-2010
    Jon Scheyer - Sr.
    Kyle Singler - Jr.
    Nolan Smith - Jr.
    Andre Dawkins - Fr.
    how is singler part of the backcourt? singler is going to play the small forward position for duke, which is part of the front court.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Close to the Gothic Playground!
    Dawkins will be a large factor for Duke this year! (He has to be).

    The only two consistent performers last year in the backcourt were Henderson and Scheyer; we lose a great player in Henderson and this will put a lot of pressure on the backcourt not only for defense but for scoring. Smith will have to step it up two notches and also add in Dawkins for instant offense. Duke desperately needs offensive production from these two guys this year, starting from the first game.

    Scheyer will have his hands full at the PG spot, and will fill it with few turnovers and his plodding, methodical style. I just don't see Singler guarding a really quick guard and before the end of the year, we'll probably all be saying 'he's still playing the same position on the court this year as he was last year'. Even though he's listed as a backcourt player, I don't see him handling a speedy guard on defense; posting that same player up on offense in the blocks, yes...taking him down at halfcourt with the defensive stop, not so much.

    dth.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia

    Safe bet?

    Quote Originally Posted by DukeBlood View Post
    I agree with Scheyer and Smith being better then last year. I doubt if anyone would disagree with that. With that being said. How do you say Singler is better then Henderson, when we have yet to see Singler as a Jr.? Then the Dawkins/Williams thing is different. None of us have yet to see Dawkins in a NCAA game, so who can judge that? Obviously, I hope he is better and can contribute from Day one.

    Lets say for debating sake that Singler is better then Henderson. WHO replaces Singler? I think it would be safe to say that whoever replaces Singler in the post wont be nearly as effective. Of course this thread is about the backcourt.

    Until I see this years backcourt in action. I have to go with last year. With that being said.. I see huge things from Mr. Dawkins in the futuer, but probably not until So. or Jr. Years.
    I agree with a lot of your post. If you agree that Smith and Scheyer will be better than last year's version of themselves, I would also expect you to figure Singler will be better as well. And Singler was pretty darn close to Henderson last year:

    Player MPG FG% 3FG%FT% RPG APG BPG SPG PPG
    G 29.7 .450 .336 .761 4.9 2.5 .8 1.2 16.5
    Kyle 32.2 .441 .383 .713 7.7 2.4 1.0 1.5 16.5

    Numbers-wise you could easily make the argument that Kyle had the better year. I find it funny that G outscored Kyle 610 to 609 over the season. Yes, G kicked it into another gear at the end of the year after a slow start while Kyle just played consistently well all year. I very much expect Kyle to have a better year this year than G did last year.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by speedevil2001 View Post
    how is singler part of the backcourt? singler is going to play the small forward position for duke, which is part of the front court.
    Well, Henderson played "small forward" for us last year (if we played positions, which of course many insist we do not), so if you take Kyle out of the equation then you should take G out, too.

    Having said that, I also have a bit of a problem with the semantic of saying we're "moving" a two-year starter from frontcourt to backcourt and thus our backcourt this year may be better (or worse).

    I would look at it like:

    wing players lost: Henderson, Paulus, Williams, Pocius.

    wing players gained: Dawkins.

    wing players returning and likely improved: Scheyer, Smith, Singler.

    So, even if we assume that Dawkins=Williams -- which simplifies the analysis but is not capable of proof, or even intelligent discourse, until we see Dre play -- the question becomes whether the improvement of Jon, Nolan, and Kyle can make up for the loss of G, Greg, and Marty.

    And the only way I see that is if Nolan can approach G's offensive presence and contributions, and if Kyle can guard the player G was guarding and can shoulder G's defensive contributions. Both of which are unlikely, but possible.

    Greg's contribution last year was mostly in the way of energy and outside shooting off the bench, and I'm hoping Dre will provide that (while also approaching Elliot's defensive contributions). Marty was just depth. Whether or not you count Ryan Kelly as a wing player, he may also provide outside shooting off the bench.

    Regarding whether Kyle (or Ryan) can guard a small, quick player (when our opponents are playing a lineup with three quick, athletic guards), I think this hazard will be minimized if our big men move their feet well enough to play good help defense and be shotblocking threats. I am hopeful that this will be true, especially with Mason, although again we haven't seen him play yet.

    So once again, IMO the key seems to be Nolan. If defenses have to key on him to keep him from slashing to the basket, with all our other weapons Duke ought to be awfully good this year.

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